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FishyPete
Guest
we’ll agree to disagree. it’s too bad you didn’t read Jimmys piece.
- Status
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mccorm45
Guest
Well, the NAB is the Bible on the Vatican website…including the notes:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_INDEX.HTM
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
FishyPete:
If you had your mind made up to begin with, why ask a question? Would not your view be better served on a personal blog?
Forums are about give and take, an exchange of ideas. If someone asks a question, in all fairness they should be looking for answers and the assistance of others, not gathering them around to tell them our personal opinion and tell them what’s wrong with theirs.
You are entitled to your opinion and your convictions, and I believe we have all benefited from what you have shared with us in one manner or another.
But I feel very disappointed that a fellow Catholic would pose a question and then just say how wrong everyone is. If the NABRE is really wrong, then you should DO something about it.
Heroes and saints aren’t those who post complaints. Heroes and saints are those who spend their lives actively changing things that need changing–never telling anyone what they do as they do it. If this Bible translation is wrong, then get off your computer and go to Washington and tell the bishops and make change happen.
I believe you have the power to set things right, for I believe God will empower anyone who does his will.
If you had your mind made up to begin with, why ask a question? Would not your view be better served on a personal blog?
Forums are about give and take, an exchange of ideas. If someone asks a question, in all fairness they should be looking for answers and the assistance of others, not gathering them around to tell them our personal opinion and tell them what’s wrong with theirs.
You are entitled to your opinion and your convictions, and I believe we have all benefited from what you have shared with us in one manner or another.
But I feel very disappointed that a fellow Catholic would pose a question and then just say how wrong everyone is. If the NABRE is really wrong, then you should DO something about it.
Heroes and saints aren’t those who post complaints. Heroes and saints are those who spend their lives actively changing things that need changing–never telling anyone what they do as they do it. If this Bible translation is wrong, then get off your computer and go to Washington and tell the bishops and make change happen.
I believe you have the power to set things right, for I believe God will empower anyone who does his will.
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FishyPete
Guest
I’m not saying you are wrong. I’m saying that after reading the footnotes and Jimmys piece I can’t believe I am the only one who comes to these conclusions.
I am not a child, but rather a learned man. No need to assume I am a Catholic of ill intentions.
but I must admit, though I am no fundamentalist and embrace theology in the bible, I am shocked and appalled at the lengths some “biblical experts go to”.
I’ll stick with believing what the gospel writers tell me.
Now if you would be so kind as to answer my original question, did the deciples speak different language because of the Holy Spirit. Yes or No?
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FishyPete
Guest
In light of Jimmys piece, that’s unfortunate.
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mccorm45
Guest
It really isn’t. Jimmy has his own opinion about the NAB, which is fine. I don’t necessarily agree with him. You can look at every major English translation that comes in a a Catholic edition and find positive and negative features. The Vatican seems to be fine with it. The original NAB, which came out in 1970, and is now out of print came with a written endorsement by Pope Paul VI. The NABRE is much better than the original.
And like a number of posters here, I don’t think the NAB notes on Acts 2 deny the disciples speaking in tongues. Having read that note for a number of years, it never crossed my mind the interpretation you are following. You combine that note with the one before it, as I pointed out earlier, and it is clear that what you are accusing the NAB note of doing is incorrect.
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FishyPete
Guest
we’ll agree to disagree then. The stuff Jimmy posted is disturbing.
The footnotes are terrible. I stand by that.
But I respect your position.
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FishyPete
Guest
I’m all for modern interpretation shedding light on things, but I feel like orthodoxy has flown out the window.
And those footnotes hold the window open in some places.
Can you understand my meaning?
And those footnotes hold the window open in some places.
Can you understand my meaning?
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Beryllos
Guest
Thanks. I’ll have to take another look at that, when I have a moment.
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FishyPete
Guest
I thank God for Scott Hahn - a voice of orthodox reason in this wilderness of so - called biblical experts.
Let me also quote Pope Benedict - I believe in what the Gospel writers have told me.
Let me also quote Pope Benedict - I believe in what the Gospel writers have told me.
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ProVobis
Guest
Maybe it would be helpful to know how these languages are related and how word got around before Pentecost. At least that’s where I’d start.
And how about that verse 13?
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mccorm45
Guest
I absolutely do. I hope the upcoming revision of the NAB NT will get rid of some of the bad ones. I just don’t think the one you cited from Acts 2 is that bad. There are a handful of others that need updated and rewritten completely. I actually have found that the greatest problem most people have with the NAB tends to be those occasional notes that are not helpful to the general Catholic reader. It unfortunately many to dismiss a generally fine translation.
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FishyPete
Guest
Thank you. A thousand times thank you for a thoughtful response.
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FishyPete
Guest
verse 13 is simple to me. Those expecting to hear Hebrew or at the very least Aramaic, heard foreign languages being yelled. I’m sure there were many around in those days who had never ever heard a foreign language. especially being screamed by fishermen of the area.
hence the response “these guys must be drunk” what is this gibberish?
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
First of all, Jimmy Akin’s piece that you cited has NOTHING to do with the point you are trying to promote.
Second, Mr. Akin is offering his opinion on the NAB and why he does not prefer to use it.
Finally—and I understand I will likely be hated for saying this and that some people will not believe me—but Mr. Akin has made an error in his conclusion.
The footnote in the NAB on Matthew 16:21-33 is NOT saying Jesus could not predict the future or that Jesus was not a true prophet. The footnote represents information based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 126, in reference to process on how we got the gospels.
According to the CCC and to the Little Rock Catholic Study Bible, there are three layers to the process which has given us Matthew and the other gospels, namely an oral tradition, a written tradition, and the edited or finalizing process.
The CCC: 126 states that “the apostles handed on to their hearers what [Jesus] has said and done, but that fuller understanding which they, instructed by the glorious events of Christ and enlightened by the Spirit of truth, now enjoyed.”
Note that they handed down Jesus words with a “fuller understanding” than what they had when Christ first said what he had before his Passion and Resurrection.
As to what the “fuller understanding” did to Jesus’ original words, the CCC states that the sacred authors of the Gospels “synthesized or explained with an eye to the situation of the churches.” This means that at times we have Jesus’ words handed on to us in a form synthesized with interpolations from the apostles, “sustaining the form of preaching, but always in such a fashion that they have told us the honest truth about Jesus.”
The fact is that Jesus’ original sayings aren’t always kept intact in the Gospels. The sayings of Jesus went through a layered process in which “materials shaped by the evangelists and their respective communities” created the Gospels we know and love today. As the Little Rock Catholic Study Bible states about this process:”These layers are part of church teaching concerning the origin of the gospels.” The citation is then made back to the CCC:126.—“Background to the Gospels,” Ronald D. Witherup, S.S., Little Rock Catholic Study Bible, p. 1963.
In light of this information, especially that from the CCC, the information in the footnote of Matthew 16:21-33 was obviously misunderstood by Mr. Akin. The translators were pointing out that the statement by Matthew (which, by the way is NOT presented as a quotation of Jesus) in verse 16 was more than likely given to Matthew by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and not directly from the mouth of Jesus. The verse reads:
From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.
Note again that this verse is NOT a quote from Jesus. It is narrative by Matthew. The NAB footnote in question is merely emphasizing this, stating that Matthew’s *narrative * which merely surmised what Jesus was saying is not to “be taken as a saying that, as they stand, go back to Jesus himself.”
The footnote then offers a theory based on critical analysis in light of the CCC:126 that what Matthew originally heard was probably based on more cryptic statements of Jesus. But the footnote never states what Mr. Akin says, namely that Jesus couldn’t actually predict the future, or that he wasn’t a true prophet or that he didn’t know about his death and resurrection and that Jesus was limited only to foresee that “his mission would entail suffering and perhaps death.” Those are Mr. Akin’s words and conclusions.
Instead the NAB states that Matthew’s words in verse 16 are more probably based on the fact that Jesus was foreseeing “that his mission would entail suffering and perhaps death,” and the details of how this would occur were added by Matthew after the fact. This is theoretical, of course, which the introduction to the NAB version of Matthew and the previous footnotes up to this point prepares the reader to understand, if one reads these thoroughly enough. We don’t know exactly how Matthew came up with verse 16. We only know it is not an oracle or quote of Jesus because Matthew doesn’t present it as such.
I cannot say for sure if Mr. Akin’s point was that it was wrong to follow the Church’s tradition on Gospel transmission at CCC:126. In fact I am sure he was not. In light of what I understand from Mr. Akin’s very orthodox approach to Catholicism and the constant witness he has provided over the years to this orthodoxy, I can only assume he is speaking about the way the footnote presumes that each reader has all the back information in mind when they read the footnote in question. It is obvious that they do not, thus making the footnote problematic, which, unless I am mistaken, is the point of Mr. Akin’s post.
Notwithstanding, the post has nothing to do with your argument or the subject of this thread that you have raised.
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FishyPete
Guest
You are most charitable towards the NAB RV footnotes. Unfortunately you are incorrect in my opinion but we’ll agree to disagree.
My job for the last 20 plus years has been to write clear English for mass understanding. Those footnotes take the opposite route.
Hey! Let’s agree to disagree!
T
TimothyH
Guest
Lets take a step back and look at the story of Pentecost as a whole.
Remember that the people who wrote the New Testament were Jews. They understood the Old Testament and wrote in the context of the Old Testament. Their entire life was saturated with the stories and teachings from the Old Testament. Several things which happened to Israel in the Old Testament are being reversed at Pentecost.
***And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. **(Exodus 32:28)
**So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. *(Acts 2:41)
The people at Mt. Sinai rejected the word of God - the tribe of Levi were commanded to kill them and three thousand were lost. Contrast Mt. Sinai with Pentecost - the people received the word of God and three thousand were added. In stating that three thousand were added, St. Luke is referencing back to Mt. Sinai where three thousand were lost. This tells us that the sin of Mt. Sinai was reversed and more importantly, the many consequences of Mt. Sinai were also reversed.
*Now the whole earth had one language and few words. … Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.” … So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. Therefore its name was called Ba’bel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth. (Genesis 11:1-9)
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. (Acts 2:4-6)*
The people of the city of Babel wanted to build a tower to heaven - symbolic of their thinking they could get to heaven on their own. They wanted to “make a name for themselves” whereas all the previous people had been named by God - symbolic of gaining their identity and purpose from what they do themselves and not getting their identity and purpose from God. The result was that God confused their language. Again, Pentecost is a reversal. Everyone understood as if it were one language. The language all understood was the Gospel - the good news of Jesus Christ. The people of Babel found identity in themselves and not God. The people of Pentecost found identity and purpose in Jesus and not themselves, and they understood the language of the Gospel.
Pentecost is a story of reversal. Several other things from the Old Testament were reversed and set right, reordered according to God’s original design.
And here is where I will get in trouble with you Pete…
I don’t care if they actually spoke languages or not. It is fun to think about but I don’t focus on whether it actually happened or not and so I don’t get stuck on it. I’ll find out at the end of my life. What I focus on is what God is trying to tell me in the narrative - I find my identity and purpose in Jesus and not in myself, I get to haven not by my own ingenuity but by listening to the Gospel and doing my best to understand it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit which dwells in me and protects the Church against error.
It’s fun to think about a mighty wind, tongues of fire and people talking all languages, but I simply move past that to the deeper meaning - what God wants me to understand in this Scripture so that I can have peace on earth, spread the Gospel, and get to Heaven. If you went to a monastery and asked a monk whether these things actually happened or not they would look at you as if you had three heads and say, “What difference does that make? How is that important to me? How would it impact my salvation either way?”
-Tim-
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FishyPete
Guest
your not in trouble.Lets take a step back and look at the story of Pentecost as a whole.
Remember that the people who wrote the New Testament were Jews. They understood the Old Testament and wrote in the context of the Old Testament. Their entire life was saturated with the stories and teachings from the Old Testament. Several things which happened to Israel in the Old Testament are being reversed at Pentecost.
***And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. ***(Exodus 32:28)
**So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. **(Acts 2:41)
The people at Mt. Sinai rejected the word of God - the tribe of Levi were commanded to kill them and three thousand were lost. Contrast Mt. Sinai with Pentecost - the people received the word of God and three thousand were added. In stating that three thousand were added, St. Luke is referencing back to Mt. Sinai where three thousand were lost. This tells us that the sin of Mt. Sinai was reversed and more importantly, the many consequences of Mt. Sinai were also reversed.
Now the whole earth had one language and few words. … Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.” … So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. Therefore its name was called Ba’bel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth. (Genesis 11:1-9)
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. (Acts 2:4-6)
The people of the city of Babel wanted to build a tower to heaven - symbolic of their thinking they could get to heaven on their own. They wanted to “make a name for themselves” whereas all the previous people had been named by God - symbolic of gaining their identity and purpose from what they do themselves and not getting their identity and purpose from God. The result was that God confused their language. Again, Pentecost is a reversal. Everyone understood as if it were one language. The language all understood was the Gospel - the good news of Jesus Christ. The people of Babel found identity in themselves and not God. The people of Pentecost found identity and purpose in Jesus and not themselves, and they understood the language of the Gospel.
Pentecost is a story of reversal. Several other things from the Old Testament were reversed and set right, reordered according to God’s original design.
And here is where I will get in trouble with you Pete…
I don’t care if they actually spoke languages or not. It is fun to think about but I don’t focus on whether it actually happened or not and so I don’t get stuck on it. I’ll find out at the end of my life. What I focus on is what God is trying to tell me in the narrative - I find my identity and purpose in Jesus and not in myself, I get to haven not by my own ingenuity but by listening to the Gospel and doing my best to understand it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit which dwells in me and protects the Church against error.
It’s fun to think about a mighty wind, tongues of fire and people talking all languages, but I simply move past that to the deeper meaning - what God wants me to understand in this Scripture so that I can have peace on earth, spread the Gospel, and get to Heaven.
-Tim-
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FishyPete
Guest
However orthodoxy is important to me, and that’s why I don’t like the footnotes.Lets take a step back and look at the story of Pentecost as a whole.
Remember that the people who wrote the New Testament were Jews. They understood the Old Testament and wrote in the context of the Old Testament. Their entire life was saturated with the stories and teachings from the Old Testament. Several things which happened to Israel in the Old Testament are being reversed at Pentecost.
***And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. ***(Exodus 32:28)
**So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. **(Acts 2:41)
The people at Mt. Sinai rejected the word of God - the tribe of Levi were commanded to kill them and three thousand were lost. Contrast Mt. Sinai with Pentecost - the people received the word of God and three thousand were added. In stating that three thousand were added, St. Luke is referencing back to Mt. Sinai where three thousand were lost. This tells us that the sin of Mt. Sinai was reversed and more importantly, the many consequences of Mt. Sinai were also reversed.
Now the whole earth had one language and few words. … Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.” … So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. Therefore its name was called Ba’bel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth. (Genesis 11:1-9)
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. (Acts 2:4-6)
The people of the city of Babel wanted to build a tower to heaven - symbolic of their thinking they could get to heaven on their own. They wanted to “make a name for themselves” whereas all the previous people had been named by God - symbolic of gaining their identity and purpose from what they do themselves and not getting their identity and purpose from God. The result was that God confused their language. Again, Pentecost is a reversal. Everyone understood as if it were one language. The language all understood was the Gospel - the good news of Jesus Christ. The people of Babel found identity in themselves and not God. The people of Pentecost found identity and purpose in Jesus and not themselves, and they understood the language of the Gospel.
Pentecost is a story of reversal. Several other things from the Old Testament were reversed and set right, reordered according to God’s original design.
And here is where I will get in trouble with you Pete…
I don’t care if they actually spoke languages or not. It is fun to think about but I don’t focus on whether it actually happened or not and so I don’t get stuck on it. I’ll find out at the end of my life. What I focus on is what God is trying to tell me in the narrative - I find my identity and purpose in Jesus and not in myself, I get to haven not by my own ingenuity but by listening to the Gospel and doing my best to understand it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit which dwells in me and protects the Church against error.
It’s fun to think about a mighty wind, tongues of fire and people talking all languages, but I simply move past that to the deeper meaning - what God wants me to understand in this Scripture so that I can have peace on earth, spread the Gospel, and get to Heaven. If you went to a monastery and asked a monk whether these things actually happened or not they would look at you as if you had three heads and say, “What difference does that make? How is that important to me? How would it impact my salvation either way?”
-Tim-
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FishyPete
Guest
One other thing. While the exact details are not important the fact is the gospel writers based their narratives on actual history events enlightened by OT references.Lets take a step back and look at the story of Pentecost as a whole.
Remember that the people who wrote the New Testament were Jews. They understood the Old Testament and wrote in the context of the Old Testament. Their entire life was saturated with the stories and teachings from the Old Testament. Several things which happened to Israel in the Old Testament are being reversed at Pentecost.
***And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. ***(Exodus 32:28)
**So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. **(Acts 2:41)
The people at Mt. Sinai rejected the word of God - the tribe of Levi were commanded to kill them and three thousand were lost. Contrast Mt. Sinai with Pentecost - the people received the word of God and three thousand were added. In stating that three thousand were added, St. Luke is referencing back to Mt. Sinai where three thousand were lost. This tells us that the sin of Mt. Sinai was reversed and more importantly, the many consequences of Mt. Sinai were also reversed.
Now the whole earth had one language and few words. … Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.” … So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. Therefore its name was called Ba’bel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth. (Genesis 11:1-9)
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. (Acts 2:4-6)
The people of the city of Babel wanted to build a tower to heaven - symbolic of their thinking they could get to heaven on their own. They wanted to “make a name for themselves” whereas all the previous people had been named by God - symbolic of gaining their identity and purpose from what they do themselves and not getting their identity and purpose from God. The result was that God confused their language. Again, Pentecost is a reversal. Everyone understood as if it were one language. The language all understood was the Gospel - the good news of Jesus Christ. The people of Babel found identity in themselves and not God. The people of Pentecost found identity and purpose in Jesus and not themselves, and they understood the language of the Gospel.
Pentecost is a story of reversal. Several other things from the Old Testament were reversed and set right, reordered according to God’s original design.
And here is where I will get in trouble with you Pete…
I don’t care if they actually spoke languages or not. It is fun to think about but I don’t focus on whether it actually happened or not and so I don’t get stuck on it. I’ll find out at the end of my life. What I focus on is what God is trying to tell me in the narrative - I find my identity and purpose in Jesus and not in myself, I get to haven not by my own ingenuity but by listening to the Gospel and doing my best to understand it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit which dwells in me and protects the Church against error.
It’s fun to think about a mighty wind, tongues of fire and people talking all languages, but I simply move past that to the deeper meaning - what God wants me to understand in this Scripture so that I can have peace on earth, spread the Gospel, and get to Heaven. If you went to a monastery and asked a monk whether these things actually happened or not they would look at you as if you had three heads and say, “What difference does that make? How is that important to me? How would it impact my salvation either way?”
-Tim-
I will never conceded this point to anyone.
While I don’t read the bible as a fundamentalist would I trust the gospel writers and the Holy Spirit.
so when I see anyone claim otherwise I get my back up and always will.
Miracles happened.
- Status