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Phil12123
Guest
What? “the Eternal Calvary”?
What? “memorial sacrifice”?
What thin air did you get those out of? Chapter and verse, please.
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What? “memorial sacrifice”?
What thin air did you get those out of? Chapter and verse, please.
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smithm29
Guest
Do you not have the answer to that question in several posts?
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NHInsider
Guest
You don’t really want to play the game that way, do you? There are lots of things we believe and refer to with terms that don’t appear in the Bible. Incarnation, Trinity . . .
Are you actually interested in the answers to the questions, or just trying to be annoying?
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Phil12123
Guest
Sorry about that. I figured out what she meant by the first one after I posted. But the second one is a different matter. To my knowledge, Jesus NEVER said, “Do this as a memorial sacrifice for me.” I do indeed request chapter and verse on that one!
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Phil12123
Guest
Well, maybe He isn’t glued to His seat! Maybe He stands up once in a while. Generally speaking though, we are told He is seated, or sat down, at the right hand of God:6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints
The Lamb is Jesus, You say “He sat down”! Done over! Well the Bible (KJV) says he’s standing up…? Doh!Which is it? Does he always just sit in that Throne?
Mark 16:19. So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
Hebrews 1:
- God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets.
- has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
- who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Now, tell me, what does this have to do with Hebrews 9:12 and whether the Pope tried to change it or whether he misquoted it? Hebrews 10:12 there says Christ offered ONE sacrifice for sins forever and, it says, He sat down, indicating IMHO His offering was completed. He never told us to stand up and offer it again and again after He offered it and sat down. So by what authority does anyone do that today? Certainly not by His instruction.
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Phil12123
Guest
Which is all we need if we are simply doing it “in remembrance of” Him and His once-for-all sacrifice. He did not tell us the Lord’s Supper was instituted for any other purpose. We remember what He did for us. We don’t put him back on the Cross to suffer and die again. That was once-for-all. Done. But we need to remember it. The Lord’s Supper serves that purpose.
When the Gospel is preached to make disciples (Matt. 28:19), the message of the Cross is given and people are told He died for their sins, which He bore on the Cross. In a sense their sins, our sins, put Him on the Cross. That message puts people “at the foot of the Cross” with a decision to make—accept what He did as applying to their sins, or walk away and have no part of it. That one sacrifice either is made personal or it is rejected as no sacrifice at all. To that extent only does anyone “participate” in the one sacrifice. Christ Himself does not go back on the Cross for anyone, except as sinners see it in the preaching of the Gospel. They see the once-for-all sacrifice when they are told about it. And after they accept it, if they do, they are reminded of it every time they take the Lord’s Supper.
No, there is no provision in Hebrews for earthly priests to “represent Him offering Himself to the Father.” None whatsoever. There was ONE, ONCE-FOR-ALL sacrifice by Christ and HE offered it Himself ONCE-FOR-ALL. One sacrifice and one offering. Both completed, never to be repeated, just remembered.
Hebrews 9:
24. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf.
25. Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own;
26. if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice.
27. Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,
28. so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.
Hebrews 10:
10. …we have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. Every priest stands daily at his ministry, offering frequently those same sacrifices that can never take away sins.
12. But this one offered one sacrifice for sins, and took his seat forever at the right hand of God;
13. now he waits until his enemies are made his footstool.
14. For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.
No, the once-for-all sacrifice of Calvary was offered once-for-all, not “is offered perpetually” in the present tense, as was the error of the Pope in changing the tense from past tense to present tense. Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary once-for-all and offered His one sacrifice once-for-all and has thereby obtained eternal redemption for us.
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Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
This is the basis for the entire Protestant/Catholic theological debate. We won’t settle this here but many will try. It should suffice to present the Catholic theological view and let it be done. Lengthy debates do little good and often devolve into uncharity.
As the Passover was “re-presented”, made present over and over yearly after the Exodus, I’m sure one could complain that it too was “over and done” and that they should have “moved on” with their lives. But this was a liturgical celebration that God wanted Israel to do as a worship to Himself. The Church sees the Lord’s Supper, the Seder meal, in this light. Protestants see this as a ritual devoid of any worship quality. I am convinced the Protestants are incorrect so I converted to Catholicism.
It is one thing to say that the sacrifice has been made once for all and another to say we don’t need the fruits of this sacrifice daily, which is where Protestant theology has taken “once for all”. The imputing of Christ’s Righteousness as a covering of our sins leads to any effort toward holiness, which is a transforming power of Christ in us, as being seen by Protestants as a “work for salvation”. It just comes from a shallow theology.
The main fruit of all this is in charity, Catholics include Protestants by and large as participating. in an incomplete way, in the Truth handed down by the apostles, whereas Protestants by and large condemn Catholics and Catholic theology as completely wrong. This in and of itself speaks loudly.
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Linda_Marie
Guest
Luke 22:19
It is a problem with translation. The Greek term used is anamnesis. This has been translated as ‘remembrance’ but this does not convey its full meaning. We do not have an equivalent word in English. Every time it is used in the Bible it refers to a particular kind of remembrance. It is the word used for the Passover.
In Hebrew, the word is zakar.
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NHInsider
Guest
Sorry, don’t have time for a thorough response this morning. However, it is important to recognize, for purposes of this discussion, that the tense Jesus used in the Words of Institution is the Present “This is my Body which is GIVEN” Not “will be given.” It is an on-going giving.
But Paul makes it quite clear that the Eucharist is NOT just a symbolic act. In his reproof of the Corinthians he says flatly that receiving the Eucharist is participating in the sacrifice in the same way that the Jews consumed the Temple sacrifices. (1 Cor. 10:16-18) We don’t put Him back on the cross, that is true. But we offer the one perfect sacrifice to the Lord perpetually, as the prophecy in Malachi (1:11) promised.
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smithm29
Guest
God’s eternal nature is the linchpin of this entire discussion and you keep bypassing it. The entire breadth of history (and of future) happens at once for God, and that “at once” is in his present. There is no need to “put him back on the cross” because he is still there.
Now in our terms, the terms of human history and our experience, it is over. It was once and for all and perfect. The mass does not recreate the sacrifice in that sense because there is no need to. Only once in human history did that sacrifice need to happen and that sacrifice was necessary and sufficient for our salvation. The mass is not a new sacrifice- that would be pointless and insulting. The mass is the same sacrifice as the one that happened 2000 years ago because, through the words of institution spoken by Christ, that sacrifice, which is already present (like all things) for God, is made present for us.
Now in our terms, the terms of human history and our experience, it is over. It was once and for all and perfect. The mass does not recreate the sacrifice in that sense because there is no need to. Only once in human history did that sacrifice need to happen and that sacrifice was necessary and sufficient for our salvation. The mass is not a new sacrifice- that would be pointless and insulting. The mass is the same sacrifice as the one that happened 2000 years ago because, through the words of institution spoken by Christ, that sacrifice, which is already present (like all things) for God, is made present for us.
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