Did the Pope say that God and Allah are the same person?

[JReducation]

I Corinthians chapter 8 verse 4-7

Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “no idol in the world really exists,” and that “there is no God but one.” Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth - as in fact there are many gods and many lords - yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

1 Corinthians Chapter 10 verse 20-22

"No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Or are we provoking the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

If anyone cares to read all of Chapter ten, you will notice how he criticizes Israel for their sexual immorality. The were an example not to follow. They had God and they lost God.

Muslims, are those who reject Christ. Muhammad said he was THE prophet of God and the Koran was THE truth. This very same book that says to kill Jews and Christians. Would God say to kill Christians?

You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to realize that God does not lie. The devil lies. If you follow a book of lies you follow a demon.

Those who worship a demon to not worship the true God Jesus Christ. And those who worship Jesus Christ do not worship a demon.

The bible never obscures, at least not to my memory, the line between true believers and those who worship false gods. There is no grey area in the bible where someone worships the true god and false gods at the same time.

The question on the table is not whether the Muslims practice the faith correctly. That’s indisputable that they do not have the fullness of truth.

The question on the table is whether they worship the one and only God and the Church has already said that they do.

If you want to take the issue up with the Church, you’re free to do so. If you want to correct the pope and the entire synod of bishops and tell them that you’re right and they’re wrong, you can do so.

But you have to stick to the point. The point is that Allah is God, the same God that the Jews called Yahweh and that Jesus called Father. That’s all the Church documents are saying.

Read post 74 again and you will see what the Church is saying. If you still disagree, then you will have to call a synod of bishops. Otherwise, you’re on your own.

There is nothing else that the rest of the Catholic Church can tell you. But what you can never do, or any of us for that matter, is contradict the ordinary magisterium and go around saying that the pope is wrong on a matter of faith. That is not allowed in the Church.

One can disagree with a position that the Church has. There is no sin involved in disagreeing, as long as one does not say that the Church is wrong and I’m right. In other words, one can offer a different perspective for consideration. That’s always been allowed.

But the tone of some posts on this thread is not of people offering other perspectives for consideration. The tone is one of being right and the Church being wrong. When that happens, then you have what is called parallel teaching authorities. That does not help Church unity.

I realize that people do it all the time, but it does not make it right. I hope you understand what I mean.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Matariel]

There is an even greater theological and foundational chasm between Greek/Roman paganism and Christianity than between Islam and Christianity. Yet Saint Paul himself was able to assert that the unknown God of the Greeks was the same God that Christians worshipped!!! The unknown God of the Greeks was actually their primordial deity from which all other deities sprung.

Actually, the “unknown God” was a catch-all phrase to make sure everyone’s deity, including Christians, was made mention of.

I agree that the same God is worshipped among all monotheistic Faiths, though the understanding of God may be different among these Faiths.

I would generally agree that any primordial mono-God worshiped by any religion is generally the same God as Yhwh, our Holy Trinity, unless something presents itself that would indicate otherwise.

In other words, the Q’uran states the Mohammedan god does not have partners (is not a trinity) nor does he have a son. But we both know the real God is a Trinity, and God the Father has a Divine Son. Also, the “Gabriel” sent to Mohammed by this god was not the Gabriel of the Bible. If God didn’t send him, then another god (a devil) must have sent it.

And the Muslims do not “have the same Pentateuch” as we do, they consider the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, to be rife with errors inserted by Jews and Christians. For instance, they think Ishmael, not Isaac, was almost offered on the mountain by Abraham.

 

[Matariel]

But the tone of some posts on this thread is not of people offering other perspectives for consideration. The tone is one of being right and the Church being wrong. When that happens, then you have what is called parallel teaching authorities. That does not help Church unity.

No, I in no way am trying to state that “I am right, and the Church is wrong”. Frankly, I’m not sure 100% that I am correct. Because the Church has not issued a final statement on the matter, and until they do, I will continue to look at this topic while respectfully acknowledging the fact that I very well may be wrong, and the others right. Certainly, Popes Benedict and Pius are much better theologians than I could ever be, but that fact remains that the Church allows diversity of opinion on this matter, until they infallibly declare I am wrong, at which point I would immediately consent to their spiritual authority.

 

[JReducation]

No, I in no way am trying to state that “I am right, and the Church is wrong”. Frankly, I’m not sure 100% that I am correct. Because the Church has not issued a final statement on the matter, and until they do, I will continue to look at this topic while respectfully acknowledging the fact that I very well may be wrong, and the others right. Certainly, Popes Benedict and Pius are much better theologians than I could ever be, but that fact remains that the Church allows diversity of opinion on this matter, until they infallibly declare I am wrong, at which point I would immediately consent to their spiritual authority.

Many Church teachings and beliefs are not attributed the mantle of infalibility. But the Church demands assent even to those that do not have this mantle, because they come from the authority of Peter.

When we begin to question what the synod and the pope teach, we get ourselves into trouble. We certainly cannot share our personal beliefs with others as Catholic beliefs. When others ask what does the Church teach about Allah, we must say that she teaches that he is the one true God. We can’t deny what the Church has put down on paper. And we can’t tell others, that the Church said this, but it is up to us to believe it or not.

When the Church leaves something up to the individual, she usually props it up with the term, “worthy of belief”. Allah has not been presented as worthy of belief. Look at the decree by Vatican II. Allah has been declared to be same God as the God of Abraham and the God of Jesus Christ. The document does not say that this may be the case. It says that it is the case.

The Congregation on the Faith would not have allowed this statement in the official Catechism of the Catholic Church if it had any doubts about its veracity. Have you considered that perspective?

Not everything that the Church teaches and believes has to be stated ex Cathedra. As Pope Benedict likes to remind us, much of our faith is what it is, because reason tells us that it is true. We would have to get into another argument with the Holy Father about reason. Who wants to do that? No I.

Have you heard some of the statements made by Pope Benedict on Allah and Islam during his tour of the Middle East? He repeats this same teaching over and over. The Holy Spirit would not allow the pope to go around the Middle East making such a statement in the name of the Church, if it were false. That would void the promise that the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail against the Church.

The Church has not said that Islam has a correct understanding of God’s revelation, only that it knows God.

As to the angel Gabriel, to say that this is not the same Gabriel as we see in the scriptures, is not an official position of the Church. The Church has always remained silent on this matter. We have to be careful when we say that it was the work of the devil, because those who hear us may think that this is the Catholic belief. It is not. We do not have any statement on this event. The Church remains deliberately silent. If a Catholic wants to say this, he or she must make sure to say that this is not the position of the Church, but a personal one and that the listener does not have to accept it or should not accept it. The listener should simply respect that this is your opinion, but accept the silence of the Church on this matter.

In the end, whether it is the Archangel or not, is not going to change the misunderstanding of revelation among the Muslims. To throw the devil into the mix it’s only going to work against what the Holy Father is trying to do. We cannot sabbotage his work with Islam.

Get what I mean?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Lead_Me_Home]

YES! Allah, Jehovah, Y-hweh , Deus, Díos, The Holy Trinity are the same. These are just different names. I have muslim friends at school who call Jesus, “Christ”. The Koran has the gist of the Bible in it including the the life of the Lord. HOwever Muslims do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, the saviour, they except him as a prophet. They also except Muhammad as a prophet.

I am just confused on what is the validity of the prophet Muhammad. Is he indeed a prophet/saint. Did he really except Jesus as only a prophet? I have no idea. I just respect islam and muslims as our brothers of the same God. However I would never deny Jesus Christ as our saviour and Lord.

 

[JReducation]

YES! Allah, Jehovah, Y-hweh , Deus, Díos, The Holy Trinity are the same. These are just different names. I have muslim friends at school who call Jesus, “Christ”. The Koran has the gist of the Bible in it including the the life of the Lord. HOwever Muslims do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, the saviour, they except him as a prophet. They also except Muhammad as a prophet.

I am just confused on what is the validity of the prophet Muhammad. Is he indeed a prophet/saint. Did he really except Jesus as only a prophet? I have no idea. I just respect islam and muslims as our brothers of the same God. However I would never deny Jesus Christ as our saviour and Lord.

This is all that the Church asks of you and me. She is not asking us to accept that Mohammad was a prophet. The Church does not believe that, neither does Judaism or do the Orthodox who also have apostolic succession.

But Jews, Catholics and Orthodox do believe that it is the same God. Of course each side believes that their theology is correct.

We know that we have the fulness of revelation and that God has revealed himself to us as Trinitarian. Therefore, we are bound to adore him as the Trinitarian God and invoke him as such.

Those who do not believe that Allah is the same god as the God, can hold on to this if they do so in good conscience. But they may not share this belief as a Catholic belief. They must always inform their audience that this is their personal belief and that the position of the Papacy and the Synod of Bishops is that Allah is the same God as the God of Jesus Christ.

What we are never allowed to do is to teach our position as the position of the Church. We are never allowed to say that the Church is wrong. This is how Fr. Kung and Fr. Curran lost their teaching licenses. They said that the Church was wrong. Had they simply said, “This is the position of the Church and this is my understanding” they would not have lost their teaching license.

Another rescent situation is the lifting of the excommunication of the SSPX bishoops. They have not been given their faculties, nor have they received a place within the Church. They are in a state of limbo. They are not being punished for having an opinion. But until they stop saying that the Church is wrong on this or that or they prove that the Church is wrong, they will not get their faculties or an episcopal see. The Church is very tough on those who disagree with her and proclaim their beliefs as correct. Everyone is allowed an opinion. No one is allowed to make statements that sabbotage the Church’s work.

Opinions can be wrong and the Church will be the first to say so. But at the same time, she does not punish for having an opinion. She does punish for teaching an opinion as a Catholic opinion when it is not. On the other hand, some opinions have been held by members of the Church and they have proven them true to the hierarchy. When that happened, they were accepted and the opinion became a teaching of the Church. This happened in several instances during the age of the Fathers.

The difference was that those Fathers did not try to sabbotage the Church’s work. They debated with the proper authorities until they proved their point.

We have a tendency to avoid debate with the proper authorities and to teach our beliefs to others as Catholic beliefs, before the Church has said that they are Catholic.

That is not allowed. For a belief to be Catholic it has to be taught by the proper teaching authorities in the Church. This is the most logical and less dangerous way to proceed before sharing what we believe. We must ask ourselves, what did the teaching authority say?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[pnewton]

The Muslim god sent a spirit that called itself “Gabriel” to Mohammad. Our God, we know, didn’t send Gabriel to Mohammad. So odviously they aren’t the same deity.

There is at least one other possibility; that would be that he who the Muslims call God did not send the angel Gabriel. This too would solve the logical conflict.

You are right that it is not a matter of faith, as it has not been defined. I do not know that either way is a matter of much more than semantics, as there is truly only one God. We know we can, we do and we have worshipped God imperfectly.

 

[JReducation]

There is at least one other possibility; that would be that he who the Muslims call God did not send the angel Gabriel. This too would solve the logical conflict.

You are right that it is not a matter of faith, as it has not been defined. I do not know that either way is a matter of much more than semantics, as there is truly only one God. We know we can, we do and we have worshipped God imperfectly.

I too believe that both Muslims and Catholics get stuck on the semantics and miss the depth of the Holy Father’s words. I was listening to the talks that the Holy Father gave in Jordan and there were several statements that make the depth very clear. If anyone wants to hear them, go to www.ewtn.com and listen carefully to the speech that he gives before the Prince.

“Muslims and Christians have a common history of suffering and persecution.”

“Muslims worship God as the Creator. Christians worship God as Creative Reason that creates and gives order to all that is good”

“The two share a common belief”

Three different sentences scattered through his talk, but all with a very profound message to both Christians and Muslims.

It is these points that should draw us to prayer and to reflection.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Cider]

YES! Allah, Jehovah, Y-hweh , Deus, Díos, The Holy Trinity are the same. These are just different names. I have muslim friends at school who call Jesus, “Christ”. The Koran has the gist of the Bible in it including the the life of the Lord. HOwever Muslims do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, the saviour, they except him as a prophet. They also except Muhammad as a prophet.

I am just confused on what is the validity of the prophet Muhammad. Is he indeed a prophet/saint. Did he really except Jesus as only a prophet? I have no idea. I just respect islam and muslims as our brothers of the same God. However I would never deny Jesus Christ as our saviour and Lord.

They accept Jesus as prophet, not except. Except mean exclude, while accept is include.

 

[JReducation]

They accept Jesus as prophet, not except. Except mean exclude, while accept is include.

If we look carefully at the gestures and words of our Holy Father toward and regarding Muslims, we discover a depth of spiritual insight that even the Fathers of the Church, her great Doctors and saints would not deny have validity.

We do have to dialogue about the differences between us. Hopefully, through such a dialogue we will lead all men, not only Muslims, to Christ.

But dialogue begins by recognizing sublime spiritual realities. As Pope Paul VI said and I’m paraphrasing, we have to put aside the conflicts that separated us in the past. The exact text of Pope Paul’s statement is found in the Council documents and in the Caterchism of the Catholic Church.

In the past, Christians and Muslims committed grave sins against each other. But as the Holy Father said in 1964 said and Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have reiterated, it’s time to put those aside and begin again by recognizing what unites us.

It is true that it is only a beginning, but as the song said in the Sound of Music, the beginning is a good place to start. The Christian and the Muslim people share a common faith in the God of Abraham.

We do not have the same understanding of God, but Abraham had only one God, the Creator of the universe, the Father of all men and the final judge of humanity. And Abrahm did not understand the Trinitarian God either. This cannot be denied by either group.

Our difference is in our Christian understanding of the Trinitarian God and the Incarnate Son of God. This is no small difference. But it does not mean that we worship a different God. What it means is that we are the beneficiaries to the fullness of revelation. We must share this fullness with those of the Muslim faith, but without antagonism and without dispondency.

We know that antagonism and despondency was tried by both sides in the past and it failed. It only led to pain, suffering and the death of many innocent Christians and Muslims. That is not the world to which we want to return. Therefore, we must proceed slowly and with charity, as Pope John Paul II did and Pope Benedict continues to do.

We have seen the fruit of this approach. When our Holy Father Pope Benedict visited Jordan, he was able to visit a center for the disabled, Our Lady of Peace, run by religious sisters from the Columbine Congregation and the Franciscan Friars of the Commisereate of the Holy Land. The center serves the needs of Christians, Muslims and Jews alike. It is staffed by all three faith groups working together as sons and daughters of the same Father. This is possible because each group acknowledges the one Fatherhood of God.

This is only one example of many joint ventures between the Franciscans, Muslims and Jews. This venture has existed for 700 years. It was authorized and blessed by every pope since Gregory IX (who was a Secular Franciscan) to Benedict XVI. The result is that in those communities where there is a mutual recognition of God as the God of Muslims, Jews and Christians, people cohabit in peace and religious freedom. Albeit, it is not a perfect situation; it is better than one of conflict and antagonism.

Pope Benedict also made it a point of his pilgrimage to refer to the mosque that he visited as a sacred place, becaue it is a place where God is worshipped. He gave proper recognition to the prayer life of the Muslim people and proper recognition to the sacredness of prayer, regardless of who is doing the praying.

We too must promote this deep desire to pray among Chrisians and Muslims. It is only through prayer that man finds quiet. In quiet God discloses himself to the human heart. God’s self-disclosure is much easier when the heart and mind are focussed on him than on defending or offending. This lesson was taught to us by the great monks of the ancient Church who fled to the desert to be alone with God.

The Pope also made a point of mentioning how ideologies have used religion for their own agenda and have distorted the basic truth that God is love and Father. These ideologies of hatred, mistrust and condemnation are too often found among Christians, Muslims and Jews alike. They are unfortunate and not helpful in the work of evangelization. They were used in the past and they failed. They are being used today and they are failing again.

It seems that the only place where men are discovering the love of God and the love of neighbor is that community where Muslims, Jews and Christians have been willing to focus on the one God and on his commandment to love God above all things and neighbor. The Pope acknowledged that Islam has always held to this belief, even when ideologists violated it. We as Christians should also hold on to this same faith, love of God and neighbor.

Therefore, as an act of charity and justice, we must recognize that God does love the Muslim people and that they love him in return. We cannot judge an entire faith tradition by the actions of ideologists, nor should we be judged by the actions of ideologists who call themselves Christian.

In the end, the Holy Father’s satement has a deeper message for all Christians, Muslims and Jews. It calls us all to unite under the one Fatherhood of God. If we begin at this point, the chances of reaching the fullness of the truth that Catholics and Orthodox already know are greatly improved. If we deny this possibility, we sabbotage the work of the Holy Father among the Muslims and Jews and in doing so we sabbotage our Lord’s saving plan for all.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[spankyg]

No, this is crazy, we do not worship the same God, why? Because the Koran was written by Muhammad, who was visited by what he claims was the angel gabriel, and told him to re-write the bible. We are not on the same page as Islam, the Koran is corruptive and evil, read it yourself.
The god of the Koran is very different to that of the one from the Bible.

 

[JReducation]

No, this is crazy, we do not worship the same God, why? Because the Koran was written by Muhammad, who was visited by what he claims was the angel gabriel, and told him to re-write the bible. We are not on the same page as Islam, the Koran is corruptive and evil, read it yourself.
The god of the Koran is very different to that of the one from the Bible.

Don’t you think that Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have ever read the Q’ran?

Where did they go wrong? They’re obviously theological scholars, not dummies.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Tsuwano]

If we look carefully at the gestures and words of our Holy Father toward and regarding Muslims, we discover a depth of spiritual insight that even the Fathers of the Church, her great Doctors and saints would not deny have validity.

We do have to dialogue about the differences between us. Hopefully, through such a dialogue we will lead all men, not only Muslims, to Christ.

But dialogue begins by recognizing sublime spiritual realities. As Pope Paul VI said and I’m paraphrasing, we have to put aside the conflicts that separated us in the past. The exact text of Pope Paul’s statement is found in the Council documents and in the Caterchism of the Catholic Church.

In the past, Christians and Muslims committed grave sins against each other. But as the Holy Father said in 1964 said and Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have reiterated, it’s time to put those aside and begin again by recognizing what unites us.

It is true that it is only a beginning, but as the song said in the Sound of Music, the beginning is a good place to start. The Christian and the Muslim people share a common faith in the God of Abraham.

We do not have the same understanding of God, but Abraham had only one God, the Creator of the universe, the Father of all men and the final judge of humanity. And Abrahm did not understand the Trinitarian God either. This cannot be denied by either group.

Our difference is in our Christian understanding of the Trinitarian God and the Incarnate Son of God. This is no small difference. But it does not mean that we worship a different God. What it means is that we are the beneficiaries to the fullness of revelation. We must share this fullness with those of the Muslim faith, but without antagonism and without dispondency.

We know that antagonism and despondency was tried by both sides in the past and it failed. It only led to pain, suffering and the death of many innocent Christians and Muslims. That is not the world to which we want to return. Therefore, we must proceed slowly and with charity, as Pope John Paul II did and Pope Benedict continues to do.

We have seen the fruit of this approach. When our Holy Father Pope Benedict visited Jordan, he was able to visit a center for the disabled, Our Lady of Peace, run by religious sisters from the Columbine Congregation and the Franciscan Friars of the Commisereate of the Holy Land. The center serves the needs of Christians, Muslims and Jews alike. It is staffed by all three faith groups working together as sons and daughters of the same Father. This is possible because each group acknowledges the one Fatherhood of God.

This is only one example of many joint ventures between the Franciscans, Muslims and Jews. This venture has existed for 700 years. It was authorized and blessed by every pope since Gregory IX (who was a Secular Franciscan) to Benedict XVI. The result is that in those communities where there is a mutual recognition of God as the God of Muslims, Jews and Christians, people cohabit in peace and religious freedom. Albeit, it is not a perfect situation; it is better than one of conflict and antagonism.

Pope Benedict also made it a point of his pilgrimage to refer to the mosque that he visited as a sacred place, becaue it is a place where God is worshipped. He gave proper recognition to the prayer life of the Muslim people and proper recognition to the sacredness of prayer, regardless of who is doing the praying.

We too must promote this deep desire to pray among Chrisians and Muslims. It is only through prayer that man finds quiet. In quiet God discloses himself to the human heart. God’s self-disclosure is much easier when the heart and mind are focussed on him than on defending or offending. This lesson was taught to us by the great monks of the ancient Church who fled to the desert to be alone with God.

The Pope also made a point of mentioning how ideologies have used religion for their own agenda and have distorted the basic truth that God is love and Father. These ideologies of hatred, mistrust and condemnation are too often found among Christians, Muslims and Jews alike. They are unfortunate and not helpful in the work of evangelization. They were used in the past and they failed. They are being used today and they are failing again.

It seems that the only place where men are discovering the love of God and the love of neighbor is that community where Muslims, Jews and Christians have been willing to focus on the one God and on his commandment to love God above all things and neighbor. The Pope acknowledged that Islam has always held to this belief, even when ideologists violated it. We as Christians should also hold on to this same faith, love of God and neighbor.

Therefore, as an act of charity and justice, we must recognize that God does love the Muslim people and that they love him in return. We cannot judge an entire faith tradition by the actions of ideologists, nor should we be judged by the actions of ideologists who call themselves Christian.

In the end, the Holy Father’s satement has a deeper message for all Christians, Muslims and Jews. It calls us all to unite under the one Fatherhood of God. If we begin at this point, the chances of reaching the fullness of the truth that Catholics and Orthodox already know are greatly improved. If we deny this possibility, we sabbotage the work of the Holy Father among the Muslims and Jews and in doing so we sabbotage our Lord’s saving plan for all.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

As usual JR, you’ve written another gem of clarity and common sense. I’m in perfect agreement with what you have said.

 

[Shin]

We have to remember that Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul IInd, Pope Benedit XVI, are all taking a stance never before seen in the Church. There have been many times when popes have done things that are at odds with the norms of tradition and the Faith throughout history. But these stands always pass, they do not last. Aberrations never last, and novelties never last either – Why? Because as our Catholic Faith teaches, there is no new revelation. Jesus revealed all to His apostles, and to His Church, and so the methods and words, the Faith, the means entire of the Magisterium of the past, is the one for today, and for tomorrow.

What do we do in times where there are aberrations like this? We look to the past, and note the simple truth, and do not let it be obscured.

Certainly I do not want to make a list of the popes who have acted and taught in ways that are at odds with tradition. Nor do I think anyone can say that the popes, which is just about all of them, who never would have done what is being done today, are not fully qualified and capable of discerning how to treat Muslims and Jews properly, and many of them theologians.

Today we see popes apologizing for the past, and we see many Catholics who do not love the God as written of in the Holy Scriptures, they do not want to say what He said, not in the New Testament, and not in the Old, whenever it is something that is hard, or strongly stated. They will state what they like, but they will not repeat the hard sayings about how false worship does not please God… They will not support the hard sentences God gives these acts. . . and they will condemn, if not directly, implicitly what is said and done about it in the Holy Scriptures and by the saints and their successors.

Today, the popes of the past few decades – A glimmer in time in the Church, have chosen what is a diplomatic route that does not use the traditional language of the Church. Perhaps it is Pope Paul VI who truly began this, because he is well known for preferring diplomacy and diplomatic language to more direct and literal language – He is well known for no longer enforcing the discipline of the Church as a norm, but instead only speaking reprovingly, never harshly, and rarely even directly but only generally to all who acted against the Faith within the Church.

This methodology of not correcting with discipline but only with words we see still practiced today when many people try to overcome abuses in their dioceses, and receive no direct help from those with the responsibility to give it. It is the methodology that enabled liturgical, doctrinal, and sexual chaos.

Pope Paul VI the diplomat, had an Ecumenical Council to put forth his ideas and beliefs and give them an additional stamp of authority. And our Church has always been strong on obedience to the Pope, and following the shepherd – We can in fact, follow to a fault, when the shepherd goes astray very easily when we fail to comprehend how to truly practice fully the virtue of obedience – Which is a virtue of help to our shepherds when they are in trouble, or fall prey to the times, as well as one of listening attentively and giving our full effort to understanding what they preach.

We have a tendency to give hero worship, or personality worship to our leaders rather than realize they are often failing human beings just as we are – which is what they truly wish us to understand. And those who play politics love to say, ‘support the pope’ when their politics, however a novelty, is what is supported. They like to have it both ways… ignoring the popes of the past as it pleases them, or following whoever is in charge as if the Church existed entirely afresh with each present Pope embodying it.

Pope Paul’s diplomatic method that sacrificed clarity for harmony – This method was followed by his successors, who the outside world sees as reactionary (all Catholicism is to it), but those within the Catholic Church familiar with its history know are the most innovative and progressive wing, a group of men who agreed in thought and were in many ways on the outside rather than the inside of Catholic mainstream thought in the beginning of their journey.

Semantically one can say the Muslims worship the God of Abraham, and can say the Muslims do not worship the God of Abraham, and in a certain sense be correct either way. But what are these senses and what are the norms of speech about these matters of the Church?

In the Catholic Church the norm is to say the Muslims do not worship our God, or even partly the Father, the God of Abraham. Why? Because this is strictly, directly, and literally correct. The god they worship condemns the Trinity – And that is God. The god they worship, was delivered to them by an angel of darkness.
But in what sense do they worship the God of Abraham? In the sense of historical origin. Mohammed drew our God originally, for the forming of his new God. So when one wishes to speak diplomatically, and truthfully one says we worship the same God, with the mental caveat of historical origin.

But anyone can clearly see the problem with this method. It is a diplomatic wording that can mislead many into believing that they are truly the same, and that worship of the god of the Muslims can lead to salvation, or is literally the same God we worship.
We are informed that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church and this is very true, but we were not told that throughout time the people in the Church from popes, prelates, to lay, would always be correct in all they did and taught, nor were we told to blindly follow every directive without referring to what is always, everywhere taught – and this is the guide for always and everywhere. We as Catholics believe what is always and everwhere taught, because the truth does not change, and the best methods of relating it…

These too never change.

 

[human_being]

I heard today from a friend that the Pope recently said that Muslims and Catholics worship the same god/God. Is that accurate? I mean … did the Pope make that statement?

Please forgive me if wrong but I think I’ve been through 90-some posts and have yet to see a link to a recent statement from Pope Benedict the XVI. Does anyone have one?

 

[spankyg]

Don’t you think that Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have ever read the Q’ran?

Where did they go wrong? They’re obviously theological scholars, not dummies.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Show me where they said it. I want cold hard proof they said it.

I have read the Koran, (not all mind you). It’s insane.

To sum it up quickly, watch this docco:

“Islam, What the West Needs To Know”

At least youtube it. (here is the link to the firrst part youtube.com/watch?v=mjq5Vi9Gc68 )

 

[ROCKY123]

i heard today from a friend that the pope recently said that muslims and catholics worship the same god/god. Is that accurate? I mean … Did the pope make that statement?

dont be silly.

 

[pnewton]

We have to remember that Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul IInd, Pope Benedit XVI, are all taking a stance never before seen in the Church… Because as our Catholic Faith teaches, there is no new revelation. Jesus revealed all to His apostles, and to His Church, and so the methods and words, the Faith, the means entire of the Magisterium of the past, is the one for today, and for tomorrow.

If the successors of Pope Paul VI are teaching the same thing, then if can not be fairly said that it has never been seen since it was seen under him. As to your second statement. That is true in that the Bible does not refer to Islam as that faith did not exist at the time. However, I can also assure you that a far better Biblical argument could be made for Pope Benedict’s statement than for something like the Assumption of Mary. Tying the Holy Father’s comments to the High Priestly prayer of Jesus, when he mentions other sheep that are not of the flock, the correlation of the Triune God and the Jewish God, the birth of Ishmael and ultimately the statement of St. Paul at the Acroplolis is not that difficult. Dogma has been established on thinner biblical revelation.

 

[Stylites]

. . . until they infallibly declare I am wrong, at which point I would immediately consent to their spiritual authority.

Until the Pope and the Catechism categorically state that Matariel is correct in his edict that Muslims worhip a devil, I personally will continue to consent to the spiritual authority of the Church when she proclaims that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

 

[Stylites]

As usual JR, you’ve written another gem of clarity and common sense. I’m in perfect agreement with what you have said.

Yes indeed. Your words, JR, are most welcome.