Did the Pope say that God and Allah are the same person?

[Traditional_Ang]

Ok. You will need to read the Koran and read the hadith in order to know who Muhammad is. Also, if you are able to read about demons and evil spirits then you will have some idea how to identify what they are. I could tell you what I think happened in that cave, but you would not believe it until you had studied the material yourself and were able to arrive at your own conclusions. If you have already studied all pertinant Islamic sources and also delved into demons then I would be curious to know why you “didn’t” think that Muhammad was influenced by a demon.

Lisa:

I’ve seen the influence of demons on my own life and on the lives of others. It really can be disastrous. I’m also quite familiar with their catastrophic effects throughout history, and understand what it will mean when “The hand of the restrainer is removed”.

I’m sure Mohammed was used by Satan or may have encountered a Demon when he was having his vision in the cave. I also wonder if we are too ready to ascribe to Demons things that may have psychological or psychiatric causes. Mohammed may have been “responding to internal stimuli” and interpreted this as “having a vision” due to the tremendous stress he and his society were under.

Given the culture around Mecca & in Arabia, I just wonder if it was more convenient to claim that the product of Mohammed’s thinking was a result of a “Vision” or an “Angelic Visitation” than to try to explain “the logic of his thinking” and to argue why his conclusions were correct.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Lisa44]

You have completely lost me. I know there is one God from multiple sources, including the Church, Scripture, Sacred Tradition and my personal faith experience.

I don’t get what your question about killing and adultery have to do with anything, but I suppose my answer to you would be that I think you have misunderstood whatever message God has for you.

Hi TMC,
Sorry, I was just illustrating that we “know” God by comparing the “revelation” to previous revelation, or in the case of the New Testament, there is no further revelation required. Even when saints believe to communicate with Mary or Jesus the message is scrutinized by the Church. This is how we know things is by analyzing them and through the intellect as well as from divine revellation.
If the God of Abraham said thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not commit adultery, then if Allah says “kill Jews and Christians” and take up to 4 wives, then is that the same god? Is that the God of Abraham who said thou shalt not kill?

Thats all. Its pretty simple stuff really.

 

[pnewton]

It is “faithful and sure”…and it is directed to every person. pretty much the key terms for invoking infalibility. And it was issued via a moto proprio.

It is the only catechism so promulgated.

None of this is relevant. Vatican I defined the formula specifically as

a verbal formula indicating that this teaching is definitive (such as “We declare, decree and define…”)

“Faithful” does not cut it. “Definitive” is the key word. Such a statement (again the Catechism is not a statement on a single doctrine) must define something specifically. A moto proprio is not an ex cathedra document.

 

[Lisa44]

Lisa:

I’ve seen the influence of demons on my own life and on the lives of others. It really can be disastrous. I’m also quite familiar with their catastrophic effects throughout history, and understand what it will mean when “The hand of the restrainer is removed”.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

Hi Michael,

I’m sorry to hear that you have had a demonic presence in your life. That is horrible. I hope all is better now.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

None of this is relevant. Vatican I defined the formula specifically as

“Faithful” does not cut it. “Definitive” is the key word. Such a statement (again the Catechism is not a statement on a single doctrine) must define something specifically. A moto proprio is not an ex cathedra document.

But the Catechism IS a part of the ordinary magisterium, or rather, what it in it (“a sure norm for teaching the faith”) is a part of the ordinary magisterium, thus requiring our assent. We are not free to dissent on the question of whether the God to whom Moslems pray is the God of Abraham. He IS. Those who say otherwise are setting themselves against the magisterium of the Church. That’s understandable in the case of Lev23, but there are professing CATHOLICS dissenting from the mind of the Church in this thread.

 

[Stylites]

It baffles me how many people, especially Christians, claim that God is the same as the Islamic Allah.

To claim that both faiths hold to the faith of Abraham is not true at all.
.

On the one hand, the Pope and the Church which Christ established say one thing. And on the other Lev23 says the opposite. That presents a clear dilemma . . . not.

Seriously, I have to marvel over how people who have never seen God like to argue over Him and make pronouncements about who worships Whom.

 

[TMC]

Hi TMC,
Sorry, I was just illustrating that we “know” God by comparing the “revelation” to previous revelation, or in the case of the New Testament, there is no further revelation required. Even when saints believe to communicate with Mary or Jesus the message is scrutinized by the Church. This is how we know things is by analyzing them and through the intellect as well as from divine revellation.
If the God of Abraham said thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not commit adultery, then if Allah says “kill Jews and Christians” and take up to 4 wives, then is that the same god? Is that the God of Abraham who said thou shalt not kill?

Thats all. Its pretty simple stuff really.

Is your point is that the Islamic God cannot be the same as the Christian God because many Islamic people hold erroneous beliefs? Lots of Christians also hold erroneous beliefs, Catholics included. Allah is the same God as our God, the fact that some of those that use that name for God mistake His intentions does not change that.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I don’t know if this has already been posted or not, but here is a quote from Pope Gregory VII’s letter to Anzir the Muslim King of Mauritania in 1076:

We and you must show in a special way to the other nations an example of this charity, for we believe and confess one God, although in different ways, and praise and worship Him daily as the creator of all ages and the ruler of this world.

 

[Lisa44]

I think that the Council of Viennes is more weighty than a letter.

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/VIENNE.HTM

COUNCIL OF VIENNE (1311-1312)

[25]. **It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith **that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (arab) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place, in the hearing of both Christians and Saracens and there make public declarations in his honour. There is a place, moreover, where once was buried a certain Saracen whom other Saracens venerate as a saint. A great number of Saracens flock there quite openly from far and near. **This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated any further without displeasing the divine majesty. **We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on catholic princes, one and all, who hold sovereignty over the said Saracens and in whose territory these practices occur, and we lay on them a pressing obligation under the divine judgment that, as true Catholics and zealous for the Christian faith, **they give consideration to the disgrace **heaped on both them and other Christians. They are to remove this offence altogether from their territories and take care that their subjects remove it, so that they may thereby attain the reward of eternal happiness. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet. They shall also forbid anyone in their dominions to attempt in future the said pilgrimage or in any way give countenance to it. Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.

 

[TMC]

I think that the Council of Viennes is more weighty than a letter.

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/VIENNE.HTM

COUNCIL OF VIENNE (1311-1312)

[25]. **It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith **that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (arab) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place, in the hearing of both Christians and Saracens and there make public declarations in his honour. There is a place, moreover, where once was buried a certain Saracen whom other Saracens venerate as a saint. A great number of Saracens flock there quite openly from far and near. **This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated any further without displeasing the divine majesty. **We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on catholic princes, one and all, who hold sovereignty over the said Saracens and in whose territory these practices occur, and we lay on them a pressing obligation under the divine judgment that, as true Catholics and zealous for the Christian faith, **they give consideration to the disgrace **heaped on both them and other Christians. They are to remove this offence altogether from their territories and take care that their subjects remove it, so that they may thereby attain the reward of eternal happiness. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet. They shall also forbid anyone in their dominions to attempt in future the said pilgrimage or in any way give countenance to it. Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.

The Council said nothing about Allah, they were condemning Muslims reverence for Mohammed, Mahomet=Mohammed not God.

 

[RyanML]

It seems to me that it’s irrelevant whether Islam worships the one true God or a false god. Either way, Islam is still a religion without merit because it is without grace and Muslims must still profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior for salvation. I understand that we must speak the truth in all charity but we must speak the truth. As Catholics we can never be indifferent and suggest to Muslims that it’s okay to be a good Muslim and that they don’t need Jesus Christ. I’m not saying that all Muslims are going to hell as only God can see their hearts. But Islam, as with any religion that does not profess Christ as Lord, is false and is not just another path to the same destination. If Muslims do worship the one true God then this is all well and good, but that doesn’t change the fact they still need conversion.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

It seems to me that it’s irrelevant whether Islam worships the one true God or a false god. Either way, Islam is still a religion without merit because it is without grace and Muslims must still profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior for salvation. I understand that we must speak the truth in all charity but we must speak the truth. As Catholics we can never be indifferent and suggest to Muslims that it’s okay to be a good Muslim and that they don’t need Jesus Christ. I’m not saying that all Muslims are going to hell as only God can see their hearts. But Islam, as with any religion that does not profess Christ as Lord, is false and is not just another path to the same destination. If Muslims do worship the one true God then this is all well and good, but that doesn’t change the fact they still need conversion.

Precisely.

 

[EasterJoy]

It seems to me that it’s irrelevant whether Islam worships the one true God or a false god. Either way, Islam is still a religion without merit because it is without grace and Muslims must still profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior for salvation. I understand that we must speak the truth in all charity but we must speak the truth. As Catholics we can never be indifferent and suggest to Muslims that it’s okay to be a good Muslim and that they don’t need Jesus Christ. I’m not saying that all Muslims are going to hell as only God can see their hearts. But Islam, as with any religion that does not profess Christ as Lord, is false and is not just another path to the same destination. If Muslims do worship the one true God then this is all well and good, but that doesn’t change the fact they still need conversion.

Whether you’re going to work towards the conversion of a Muslim or a Mormon, you do well to take the time to find out where they’re right and where they’ve lost the path. Otherwise, you may do more harm than good.

Consider how St. Paul approached the Greeks, whose only connection to God was their altar to “To a God Unknown.” That one spark of truth they had is where Paul started. (Acts 17:22-34)

Taking the time to understand one’s audience and having respect for the truth they already have makes a big difference.

 

[distracted]

Yes, pope says that God and Allah are the same person. He also says that they have equal power.

i doubt it… and if he did… i can’t say i would trust him on anything else in the future…

My God doesn’t belive in killing people unless they are trying to kill me or mine… (or some other non-threatening person)

 

[distracted]

This is confusing.
I know very little of the Koran but I have been under the impression that the character traits of the god “Allah” as expressed in the Koran is very different than the character traits of God as expressed in the Bible. In addition the Koran calls for the subjugation or destruction of all non Muslims… as has happened to Christian believers in Syria over the last 40 years.

we don’t believe in the same God. I’ve heard quotes from the Koran… about how it is necessary to kill the infidel, etc… if he refuses to convert.

we are all infidels… all non-Muslims…

when the Israelies withdrew from Gaza and elsewhere, the muslims just took those things as a sign that “Allah” was on their side… and that they should continue to try to conquer the world… make everyone Muslim… That is one reason why we cannot back down in the face of this enemy…

 

[distracted]

---

It seems to me that it’s irrelevant whether Islam worships the one true God or a false god. Either way, Islam is still a religion without merit because it is without grace and Muslims must still profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior for salvation. I understand that we must speak the truth in all charity but we must speak the truth. As Catholics we can never be indifferent and suggest to Muslims that it’s okay to be a good Muslim and that they don’t need Jesus Christ. I’m not saying that all Muslims are going to hell as only God can see their hearts. But Islam, as with any religion that does not profess Christ as Lord, is false and is not just another path to the same destination. If Muslims do worship the one true God then this is all well and good, but that doesn’t change the fact they still need conversion

***.

:clapping:

 

[pnewton]

Whether you’re going to work towards the conversion of a Muslim or a Mormon, you do well to take the time to find out where they’re right and where they’ve lost the path. Otherwise, you may do more harm than good…taking the time to understand one’s audience and having respect for the truth they already have makes a big difference.

Not all are called to have to deal with other faiths. That may be why the Pope is so misunderstood on this. God has chosen some to be lay, some evangelist to the pagans and a select few Pope. I do not begrudge the laity for their misuderstanding, until they cross the line into judgement. It takes a lot of understanding of some of these faiths to be able to even talk to them in the same terms.

 

[RyanML]

Whether you’re going to work towards the conversion of a Muslim or a Mormon, you do well to take the time to find out where they’re right and where they’ve lost the path. Otherwise, you may do more harm than good.

Consider how St. Paul approached the Greeks, whose only connection to God was their altar to “To a God Unknown.” That one spark of truth they had is where Paul started. (Acts 17:22-34)

Taking the time to understand one’s audience and having respect for the truth they already have makes a big difference.

I totally agree. Being patient with those in error is a spiritual work of mercy and we must always speak the truth in love. We have to meet people where they are at, but we can’t encourage them to stay there which, unfortunately, is what happens with a lot of modern ecumenical ventures.

 

[EasterJoy]

Not all are called to have to deal with other faiths. That may be why the Pope is so misunderstood on this. God has chosen some to be lay, some evangelist to the pagans and a select few Pope. I do not begrudge the laity for their misuderstanding, until they cross the line into judgement. It takes a lot of understanding of some of these faiths to be able to even talk to them in the same terms.

Yes. We are only human. We cannot understand everyone or read any hearts. Still, there is no one whom we are not called to love as the Father loves. We are commanded to do that. We are commanded to pray for our enemies and love those who hate us.

If we can’t accept where they are well enough to talk to them, then we at least have it in our ability to keep our mouths closed, pray for mercy on all, and let the Holy Father do our talking for us.

 

[EasterJoy]

I totally agree. Being patient with those in error is a spiritual work of mercy and we must always speak the truth in love. We have to meet people where they are at, but we can’t encourage them to stay there which, unfortunately, is what happens with a lot of modern ecumenical ventures.

I think that this happens when we are so respectful of where others are that we forget to be reverent of where we are. We don’t have the luxury of putting our lights under bushel baskets, in order to avoid all conflict with those in darkness. We might get whacked for it, but within the boundaries that charity imposes–which does include not tossing pearls before swine, so virtue requires some discretion–that’s what we have to do.

We’re not going to like it when we are admonished for embracing darkness, either, although none of us is beyond needing it. In the big picture, though, we have to humbly welcome respectful correction, taking it with whatever grain of salt is called for, of course.