J
JReducation
Guest
I don’t know enough about them. Actually, I have never read their biographies. I have read Mohammed’s.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
- Status
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
We read those documents and books in graduate theology. But the Church does not teach that Mohammad was influenced by a demon. Until the Church says so, we have no reason to believe that.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
It has been said by Popes Gregory VII, Bl. John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI.
If that were the case, then we wouldn’t be able to trust any of these popes.
I wouldn’t go there.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
T
TristanCross
Guest
No, we don’t. Nor do “Jews”. Christians worship a triune God. Muslims and “Jews” worship a god who is not triune. He who has not the Son neither has the Father.
L
Lisa44
Guest
Here is another objection to Islam- This should make one consider carefully before endorsing a false religion.
sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum267.htm
From Summa Theologica
Whether apostasy pertains to unbelief?
Objection 2: Further, unbelief is an act of the understanding: whereas apostasy seems rather to consist in some outward deed or utterance, or even in some inward act of the will, for it is written (Prov. 6:12-14): “A man that is an apostate, an unprofitable man walketh with a perverse mouth. He winketh with the eyes, presseth with the foot, speaketh with the finger. With a wicked heart he deviseth evil, and at all times he soweth discord.” Moreover if anyone were to have himself circumcised, or to worship at the tomb of Mahomet, he would be deemed an apostate. Therefore apostasy does not pertain to unbelief.
On the contrary, It is written (Jn. 6:67): “Many of his disciples went back,” i.e. apostatized, of whom Our Lord had said previously (Jn. 6:65): “There are some of you that believe not.” Therefore apostasy pertains to unbelief.
I answer that, Apostasy denotes a backsliding from God. This may happen in various ways according to the different kinds of union between man and God. For, in the first place, man is united to God by faith; secondly, by having his will duly submissive in obeying His commandments; thirdly, by certain special things pertaining to supererogation such as the religious life, the clerical state, or Holy Orders. Now if that which follows be removed, that which precedes, remains, but the converse does not hold. Accordingly a man may apostatize from God, by withdrawing from the religious life to which he was bound by profession, or from the Holy Order which he had received: and this is called “apostasy from religious life” or “Orders.” A man may also apostatize from God, by rebelling in his mind against the Divine commandments: and though man may apostatize in both the above ways, he may still remain united to God by faith.
But if he give up the faith, then he seems to turn away from God altogether: and consequently, apostasy simply and absolutely is that whereby a man withdraws from the faith, and is called “apostasy of perfidy.” In this way apostasy, simply so called, pertains to unbelief.
Reply to Objection 2: It belongs to faith not only that the heart should believe, but also that external words and deeds should bear witness to the inward faith, for confession is an act of faith. In this way too, certain external words or deeds pertain to unbelief, in so far as they are signs of unbelief, even as a sign of health is said itself to be healthy. Now although the authority quoted may be understood as referring to every kind of apostate, yet it applies most truly to an apostate from the faith. For since faith is the first foundation of things to be hoped for, and since, without faith it is “impossible to please God”; when once faith is removed, man retains nothing that may be useful for the obtaining of eternal salvation, for which reason it is written (Prov. 6:12): “A man that is an apostate, an unprofitable man”: because faith is the life of the soul, according to Rom. 1:17: “The just man liveth by faith.” Therefore, just as when the life of the body is taken away, man’s every member and part loses its due disposition, so when the life of justice, which is by faith, is done away, disorder appears in all his members. First, in his mouth, whereby chiefly his mind stands revealed; secondly, in his eyes; thirdly, in the instrument of movement; fourthly, in his will, which tends to evil. The result is that “he sows discord,” endeavoring to sever others from the faith even as he severed himself.
Hopefully, it will be clear that the act of worshipping at the tomb of Muhammad, (ie: revearing muhammad) is an act of aspostasy according to St. Thomas Aquinas.
sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum267.htm
From Summa Theologica
Whether apostasy pertains to unbelief?
Objection 2: Further, unbelief is an act of the understanding: whereas apostasy seems rather to consist in some outward deed or utterance, or even in some inward act of the will, for it is written (Prov. 6:12-14): “A man that is an apostate, an unprofitable man walketh with a perverse mouth. He winketh with the eyes, presseth with the foot, speaketh with the finger. With a wicked heart he deviseth evil, and at all times he soweth discord.” Moreover if anyone were to have himself circumcised, or to worship at the tomb of Mahomet, he would be deemed an apostate. Therefore apostasy does not pertain to unbelief.
On the contrary, It is written (Jn. 6:67): “Many of his disciples went back,” i.e. apostatized, of whom Our Lord had said previously (Jn. 6:65): “There are some of you that believe not.” Therefore apostasy pertains to unbelief.
I answer that, Apostasy denotes a backsliding from God. This may happen in various ways according to the different kinds of union between man and God. For, in the first place, man is united to God by faith; secondly, by having his will duly submissive in obeying His commandments; thirdly, by certain special things pertaining to supererogation such as the religious life, the clerical state, or Holy Orders. Now if that which follows be removed, that which precedes, remains, but the converse does not hold. Accordingly a man may apostatize from God, by withdrawing from the religious life to which he was bound by profession, or from the Holy Order which he had received: and this is called “apostasy from religious life” or “Orders.” A man may also apostatize from God, by rebelling in his mind against the Divine commandments: and though man may apostatize in both the above ways, he may still remain united to God by faith.
But if he give up the faith, then he seems to turn away from God altogether: and consequently, apostasy simply and absolutely is that whereby a man withdraws from the faith, and is called “apostasy of perfidy.” In this way apostasy, simply so called, pertains to unbelief.
Reply to Objection 2: It belongs to faith not only that the heart should believe, but also that external words and deeds should bear witness to the inward faith, for confession is an act of faith. In this way too, certain external words or deeds pertain to unbelief, in so far as they are signs of unbelief, even as a sign of health is said itself to be healthy. Now although the authority quoted may be understood as referring to every kind of apostate, yet it applies most truly to an apostate from the faith. For since faith is the first foundation of things to be hoped for, and since, without faith it is “impossible to please God”; when once faith is removed, man retains nothing that may be useful for the obtaining of eternal salvation, for which reason it is written (Prov. 6:12): “A man that is an apostate, an unprofitable man”: because faith is the life of the soul, according to Rom. 1:17: “The just man liveth by faith.” Therefore, just as when the life of the body is taken away, man’s every member and part loses its due disposition, so when the life of justice, which is by faith, is done away, disorder appears in all his members. First, in his mouth, whereby chiefly his mind stands revealed; secondly, in his eyes; thirdly, in the instrument of movement; fourthly, in his will, which tends to evil. The result is that “he sows discord,” endeavoring to sever others from the faith even as he severed himself.
Hopefully, it will be clear that the act of worshipping at the tomb of Muhammad, (ie: revearing muhammad) is an act of aspostasy according to St. Thomas Aquinas.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
**No one has endorsed a false religion. The question before us is whether we and the Moslems pray to the same God (the God of Abraham). When there is a doubt in a matter of faith and morals, to whom do we turn for the answer? The Church. Echoing what another poster has said, on the one hand, we have the Church in the fullness of Her teaching authority and on the other we have Lisa’s opinion. Not a hard call. **
D
distracted
Guest
As long as we are not so “patient” that we give them time to ram another airplane thoruhg another of our skyscrapers…
As long as we don’t “love” them more than our own relationship with Christ… meaning we don’t compromise what we believe in to show so called love …
yeah, we can’t encourage them to stay in their jihadist mentality… Otherwise, we will all be Muslims someday (either that or dead martyrs)…
E
EasterJoy
Guest
When St. Paul preached to the Athenians, he referred to the one spark of truth he could find in their religion in this way: “As I walked around looking at your shrines, I even discovered an altar inscribed, ‘To a God Unknown.’ Now what you are worshipping in ignorance I intend to make known to you. For the God who made the world and all that is in it, the Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in sanctuaries made by human hands; nor does he receive man’s service as if he were in need of it.” Acts 18:23-25
Note that Paul did not tell the Greeks, who worshipped a multitude of false gods, that they were worshipping a false god in every case! Rather, he granted the one instance in which they were worshipping the true God, even though in a fashion ignorant of Him, and went from there. If we cannot believe the Pope’s approach because he is the Vicar of Christ, at least let us trust in it because it follows the example of the Apostles as recorded in Holy Scripture.
Paul was not preaching a false religion, and neither is the Pope. What both were doing was using recognition of the truth held within another religion as a starting point for evangelization and conversation to the fullness of faith. Did all the Athenians hear what he had to say? No. Some sneered at him. Only a few joined him. But others responded in this way: “We must year you on this topic some other time.” As we know, Paul continued to make inroads with the Greeks. It didn’t happen in a day, though, and he did start with where they were.
D
distracted
Guest
yeah, that’s what gets to me… Catholics being so “tolerant” of Islam… to the point of ridiculousness… their religion (which is more politics than religion) IS a johny come-lately … The Jews are one of the oldest religions in the world… and where Christianity came from… All Christians should join with them in protecting their homeland…
The Jews did fight alongside the Muslims against the Chritians (the Crusads) at one or two times in history… but i think they’ve learned their lesson now (?)
S
Stouts989
Guest
Just because Muslims claim they worship the same God, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, doesn’t make it true.
The LDS church claims to worship the same God Catholics and other Christians worship…and we know much better to believe that!
Islam and its lies is no different.
The LDS church claims to worship the same God Catholics and other Christians worship…and we know much better to believe that!
Islam and its lies is no different.
L
Lisa44
Guest
Hi JKirklvnv,
Are you saying that Pope Clement V and St. Thomas Acquinas are not “the church”?
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
You have not demonstrated that they have said that Christians and Moslems do not pray to the same God. You’ve shown that they saw the obvious errors of Islam, but not that they pray to a different God. There is a distinction.
T
TMC
Guest
Whether or not the church condemns what Mohammed taught has nothing to do with whether Allah is the same God as our God. The Church condemns many of the teachings of Baptists, but does not deny that the “Baptist God” is the same as our God. The Church condemns much of what Judaism teaches, but we believe Yahweh and our God are the same. The same is true of Islam. The fact that Muslims have some beliefs that we reject does not effect the identity of the One True God, the God that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship.
J
Jacafamala
Guest
Oh, don’t give me any of that drivel. They worship a different god.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
AGAIN, your opinion on one hand, the teaching of the Church on the other…hmmm.
L
Lisa44
Guest
Hi Tmc,
Baptists are Christians so yes, same God.
Jews worship the God of the Torah, which we also follow, who Jesus says he is one and the same with.
Islam does not believe in the bible, old or new testaments. Go to Saudi Arabia and try and get your hands on a bible, good luck. They don’t have bibles, because they don’t believe in the bible.
Do you know what Jews and Christians are called in the koran? “the people of the book”. Why do you think they call us that? Because we believe in the bible. And, they don’t.
But yet, they claim to worship the god of the bible, and at the same time, hold the bible to be false.
And you and others are saying that Muslims worship the God of the Old Testament, even though, they don’t believe in the Old Testament or follow it like the Jews do.
So that would be like me saying I worship Jesus, but I do not believe in the New Testament, and I don’t follow any teachings of Jesus. Instead I communed with Jesus personally and have my own revellation which says I can marry 10 men. But I worship Jesus.
Wouldn’t you say that was absurd? I mean, c’mon. Lets be for real.
Just because you say you worship someone doesn’t mean you do. If you reject their teachings, then how can you worship them? Its a fallacious argument. We know God through his revellation, to reject his revellation is to reject him. True or false?
How can you simultaneously reject and accept something?
You can’t. Which is why they are lying. Islam is a lie. Its a well crafted lie that if you buy into it, you’ll be deluded and lead others into delusion as well.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Lisa: You still haven’t addressed the central question that is problematic with your posts. Are we to trust the Church (NONE of the Church authorities which you cite say that Islam prays to a different god and the authorities cited back to you say that we do pray to the same God, the God of Abraham) or you? As has been said, you have essentially set yourself up as your own magisterium. The Church is in disagreement with you. To whom do we listen, the Church that cannot mislead the faithful, the Church to Whom Jesus promised the Holy Spirit that would lead Her into all truth…or you?
You say,“C’mon, let’s be for real.” I have no problem imagining Martin Luther or any of the “Reformers” saying the same thing (“Man can pronounce God’s absolution? Man can confect a “Holy Sacrifice” at which bread and wine actually become the Body and Blood of Christ? Shouldn’t we be simply be following the Bible alone? C’mon, let’s be for real!”).
L
Lisa44
Guest
Hi JKirk
By that argument, the passages in question don’t say that they DO pray to the same God.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
No, dear, but you’ve been provided with passages by those exercising legitimate authority that DO say they pray to the same God. That YOUR citations don’t deal with the question is irrelevant.
- Status