Did the Pope say that God and Allah are the same person?

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He says not to worship Jesus, and to kill Christians and Jews…
He allows sexual sins (4 wives and as many divorces as you want)…🤷
This is true. Clearly, Islamic texts are not inspired and not holy.

Of course there are those who call themselves Christians (born again) who brazenly commit sexual sin with pride. We as Catholics, while we are sinners, know when we commit sin, do feel sorry about it, and try to ammend our lives (at least this is what a real Catholic is to do).

I have met some born again ‘Christians’ so sinful and proud of their sin that I have trouble seeing them, unless they repent later in life or at death, having much of a hope of Heaven. Calling out Jesus’s name vainly and using His name as a blanket for sin is sacrilege.

We have to do our best to know the faith to shift the momentum from ‘Bible Believers/Fundamentalists/born agains’ to our side.
 
We believe in the Trinity. Please explain to me how the Trinity is the same God that the Jews & Muslims worship. I just don’t see it–this seems to be some sort of politically correct nonsense, designed to appease other religions.
They don’t believe that God is a trinity, we do. We believe different things about God’s characteristics. Moses and Abraham didn’t believe the trinity either, but they worshipped the same God.

Incorrect understanding of the nature of God doesn’t mean they worship a different God. After all, there is only one God.
 
Ephesians 6:12

How do you know that Allah is not the devil?
Please be careful with statements like this, Allah is simply the word for God in Arabic. It is the word used in Mass when celebrated in Arabic. There are many Arab Christians and Arabic speaking Christians all across the world.

The problems you express with certain passages of the Koran are very real and it is because of this twisting of Christian faith (Islam is considered a Christian heresy by many church historians), that we need to pray for Muslims. They have been mislead, just as our separated brethren in the Protestant churches have been and they do not have the fullness of the faith.

The Church has always recognized that Jews and Muslims worship the same God, but they do not have the complete and true faith. We must pray for their conversion.
 
He says not to worship Jesus, and to kill Christians and Jews…
He allows sexual sins (4 wives and as many divorces as you want)…🤷
That is a man that says that in God’s name and not God that has said that. Remember, the Koran is NOT written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for if it were, passages
such as this would not appear in it.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem
 
The devil lies. Sure Muhammad’s “angel” said he was from God. That doesn’t make it true. The devil concocts all manner of lies in order to lead people away from Jesus and into Hell. That’s his job, that’s what he does, and he does it very well.

As a Catholic who has studied Islam, even before being a Christian, I will tell you that Muslims do NOT worship God. They might “think” they do. Yes, of course they think they do. But in all honesty they don’t. I am not ignorant about Islam. Maybe the Pope is. We should all pray for him.
 
The Church has always recognized that Jews and Muslims worship the same God, but they do not have the complete and true faith. We must pray for their conversion.
Thank you for your warning, I will be more careful with language.

It is in fact true that the Jews worship God, and do so inadequately if they don’t recognize the Messiah. Muslims however, have no connection to Judaism or Christianity except for the fact they plagarized the earlier monotheistic religions in order to give credence to their perverted beliefs. Muslims do not worship God. They neither worship the God of the Old Testament or the New. The angel who came to Muhammad was a demon who’s job was to lead people AWAY from truth. What contradicts truth cannot be truth. What is anti-God cannot be God. What is evil IS in fact evil. It is from the devil. You know, that guy who tempted Jesus…:D:thumbsup:

I will go rounds and rounds on this subject and have.

I suggest that all those who doubt that the Koran is demonic I suggest you start studying. You must read the Koran and read the Hadith. This way you will really know what Islam teachs. The Hadith is the teachings of Muhammad and his life. By knowing this man, you will really know if Islam is from God or from a demon. But if you are unwilling to study then you will not be a competent judge.

Also, this notion that they do not have the “complete and true faith” is absolutely false. That is like saying a lie is not the complete truth! No kidding! A lie is a lie is a lie. “Jesus in not God” - is a LIE. That is not incomplete, that is a lie.

In contrast, a Jew who says that Jesus is not God, yet who still believes in the Old testament, that is indeed an “incomplete” faith. It does have partial truth as the Old Testament is also from God.

The Koran, however, is not “partial” truth, it is an outright fabrication or lie. It was not from God at all. It is some truths taken from Judaism and Christianity and mixed with LIES to lead people into hell. It is the work of a demon.:cool: Be WARNED.

🙂
 
Thank you for your warning, I will be more careful with language.

It is in fact true that the Jews worship God, and do so inadequately if they don’t recognize the Messiah. Muslims however, have no connection to Judaism or Christianity except for the fact they plagarized the earlier monotheistic religions in order to give credence to their perverted beliefs. Muslims do not worship God. They neither worship the God of the Old Testament or the New. The angel who came to Muhammad was a demon who’s job was to lead people AWAY from truth. What contradicts truth cannot be truth. What is anti-God cannot be God. What is evil IS in fact evil. It is from the devil. You know, that guy who tempted Jesus…:D:thumbsup:

I will go rounds and rounds on this subject and have.

I suggest that all those who doubt that the Koran is demonic I suggest you start studying. You must read the Koran and read the Hadith. This way you will really know what Islam teachs. The Hadith is the teachings of Muhammad and his life. By knowing this man, you will really know if Islam is from God or from a demon. But if you are unwilling to study then you will not be a competent judge.

Also, this notion that they do not have the “complete and true faith” is absolutely false. That is like saying a lie is not the complete truth! No kidding! A lie is a lie is a lie. “Jesus in not God” - is a LIE. That is not incomplete, that is a lie.

In contrast, a Jew who says that Jesus is not God, yet who still believes in the Old testament, that is indeed an “incomplete” faith. It does have partial truth as the Old Testament is also from God.

The Koran, however, is not “partial” truth, it is an outright fabrication or lie. It was not from God at all. It is some truths taken from Judaism and Christianity and mixed with LIES to lead people into hell. It is the work of a demon.:cool: Be WARNED.

🙂
I quite agree. Islam is a complete deception.

Nonetheless, the God they worship wrongly, falsely, poorly, is the God of Abraham, the same God we worship correctly, truthfully, completely. So have our popes and the Catechism, promulgated with the authority of the Holy Father, taught.
 
In my study of the Koran and Islam I have also come to the same conclusions as listed above. I have tried to do so without prejudice or bias. I have also come to the conclusion that it is also a political philosophy (ancient) that is disguised as a religion. How people can adhere to it I will never know.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem
 
Thank you for your warning, I will be more careful with language.

It is in fact true that the Jews worship God, and do so inadequately if they don’t recognize the Messiah. Muslims however, have no connection to Judaism or Christianity except for the fact they plagarized the earlier monotheistic religions in order to give credence to their perverted beliefs. Muslims do not worship God. They neither worship the God of the Old Testament or the New. The angel who came to Muhammad was a demon who’s job was to lead people AWAY from truth. What contradicts truth cannot be truth. What is anti-God cannot be God. What is evil IS in fact evil. It is from the devil. You know, that guy who tempted Jesus…:D:thumbsup:

I will go rounds and rounds on this subject and have.

I suggest that all those who doubt that the Koran is demonic I suggest you start studying. You must read the Koran and read the Hadith. This way you will really know what Islam teachs. The Hadith is the teachings of Muhammad and his life. By knowing this man, you will really know if Islam is from God or from a demon. But if you are unwilling to study then you will not be a competent judge.

Also, this notion that they do not have the “complete and true faith” is absolutely false. That is like saying a lie is not the complete truth! No kidding! A lie is a lie is a lie. “Jesus in not God” - is a LIE. That is not incomplete, that is a lie.

In contrast, a Jew who says that Jesus is not God, yet who still believes in the Old testament, that is indeed an “incomplete” faith. It does have partial truth as the Old Testament is also from God.

The Koran, however, is not “partial” truth, it is an outright fabrication or lie. It was not from God at all. It is some truths taken from Judaism and Christianity and mixed with LIES to lead people into hell. It is the work of a demon.:cool: Be WARNED.

🙂
Cool! Someone who can call a spade a spade!
 
Cool! Someone who can call a spade a spade!
It behooves us to re-read the posts of MACHIU, GHESTY, and LISA44. I have read the Koran and part of the Hadith (sp?) of Mohammid. The Quran is a message of retribution but that only concerns our understanding. It does not say anything of the God we worship. Sura 19 is dedicated to the Virgin Mary but not in a way that we would recognize out of reverence. Sura 19 is a warning as are most of the other 104 Suras. Sura 1 is most like the story of the New Testament and it is only 1 sentance long but it says half of the New Testament Story.

It appears to me to be a matter of relationships not of different Gods. Our Jewish brothers and sisters, like ourselves look to the Father as “Father” wheras Islam looks to “Master”. Several biblical passages refer to the “Master” both in the old and new Testaments. For us Jesus/God is both our Father and Master. The Holy Spirit/Jesus/Father is our desire. So much more than our earthly family but not inseprable from our earthly family. That is why we go to Mass. We recieve God in our community, our individuality and our collective souls; physically and spiritually.

We should look to both our Jewish and Islamic brothers and sisters for understanding in these times. Both have much to share in our growth as Christians. Do we not think that our thoughts on God are correct? Why would we think that our brother’s thoughts on God are less? We tend to behave differently because we are in a position to do so. They behave in a manner to which they are taught. Get to know a Jew and a Moslem and you will find that they share many of the same desires and goals as yourself. Look at any religious background and you will find fanatisiscm that is beyond the pale of your belief. Love one another as I have loved you. If you do this you may lose your life but in doing so you will have gained heaven.

ConyersColt84
 
We must also remember that the pope is speaking on a matter of faith and morals, not politics. If he says that the God of Islam is the God of Abraham and the God of Israel is also the God of Abraham, and the God of Jesus is also the God of Abraham, we run the risk of setting ourselves up as a separate magisterium by contradicting what he is saying.

The difference between the Muslims, Jews, other Christians and Catholics is that the fullness of truth subsists within the Catholic Church. Therefore, we understand the fulness of the nature of God, whereas they do not. But that does not make the Godhead a different god.

This example has nothing to do with God, but it helps understand the difference in language and understanding of truth.

The Catholic Church always teaches us about the Assumption of Mary. The Orthodox never call it that. The call it the Dormition of Mary. Are they talking about a different Mary or a different event? No. It’s the same Mary and the same event. The understanding of the reality is different and so is the emphais.

In the case of God, the understanding of the nature of the Godhead is different and so is the emphais. But it remains the same Godhead, the God of Abraham. The God of Abraham did not reveal himself to Abraham as Trinitarian. That came later in the history of revelation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I quite agree. Islam is a complete deception.

Nonetheless, the God they worship wrongly, falsely, poorly, is the God of Abraham, the same God we worship correctly, truthfully, completely. So have our popes and the Catechism, promulgated with the authority of the Holy Father, taught.
This is a curious thing:). Would you please explain to me how it is that they worship the God of Abraham when they reject the bible as full of lies? And they follow a book of dubious origin full of lies about God and the Jews?

Don’t you get it that if they followed the God of Abraham then they would be Jews? The Muslims reject the Jewish tradition, that existed for 5,000 years and yet claim to worship the God of Abraham? They reject the scriptures. They simply borrowed a verse or two that would give them a platform for their cult.

Everything they claim to be true, comes from their book the Koran which is not divinely recieved. In fact, it is of demonic origin. How can people who follow a non-divine book full of demonic impressions follow the same god as those who adhere to divine scriptures?

What that is suggesting, is that the author of lies, Satan, is the same as the God. If Muslims and Christians and Jews worship God, then either we all worship God or we all worship Satan. We cannot both worship God and Satan?

To say Muslims worship God is to say that their book is from God! To say Catholics worship the same God as the Muslims is to say that Catholics worship lies, Satan!

Two opposites cannot both be true. We know this for a fact. So how is it that a book of lies, and a book of truth are the same and come from the same God.

Its impossible!

If people would only recognize that the devil exists to lead people into Hell then we wouldn’t be in this inferno of political correctness. We can’t have it both ways.
In my study of the Koran and Islam I have also come to the same conclusions as listed above. I have tried to do so without prejudice or bias. I have also come to the conclusion that it is also a political philosophy (ancient) that is disguised as a religion. How people can adhere to it I will never know.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem
Cool! Someone who can call a spade a spade!
Thanks:)
 
This is a curious thing:). Would you please explain to me how it is that they worship the God of Abraham when they reject the bible as full of lies? And they follow a book of dubious origin full of lies about God and the Jews?

Don’t you get it that if they followed the God of Abraham then they would be Jews?

Everything they claim to be true, comes from their book the Koran which is not divinely recieved. In fact, it is of demonic origin. How can people who follow a non-divine book full of demonic impressions follow the same god as those who adhere to divine scriptures?

What that is suggesting, is that the author of lies, Satan, is the same as the God. If Muslims and Christians and Jews worship God, then either we all worship God or we all worship Satan. We cannot both worship God and Satan?

To say Muslims worship God is to say that their book is from God! To say Catholics worship the same God as the Muslims is to say that Catholics worship lies, Satan!

Two opposites cannot both be true. We know this for a fact. So how is it that a book of lies, and a book of truth are the same and come from the same God.

Its impossible!

If people would only recognize that the devil exists to lead people into Hell then we wouldn’t be in this inferno of political correctness. We can’t have it both ways.
First of all, I’m not involved in an “inferno of political correctness.” I believe Islam is a gross deception and their Prophet a liar.

The fact remains, however, that what JReducation has said is true. You haven’t been Catholic very long, have you? Did you read the Catechism before you rec. the Sacraments? Did you know what the Church taught and that you would have to accept it all as revealed by God? The Catechism, as promulgated by the Vicar of Christ on Earth, is “a sure norm” for teaching the faith. It was also largely written/compiled by his successor, Joseph Ratzinger. So if it’s a toss up between what you have to say on one hand and what the Catechism has to say on the other, promulgated by the Successor to Saint Peter to the whole of the Church and written by one of the finest theologians ever produced by the Catholic Church, who would go on to become Pope himself, well, I’m sticking with the Church.
 
So, is the Truth the truth? Is a lie a lie, or is a lie just not quite the truth?

Is the Catholic Church right, and the others wrong? Or is it just that we’re the most right, and the others are a fair bit right.

And if they are a fair bit right, does the difference mean anything? Does the Trinity mean anything, or is it just cool that we recognise it, and they don’t?

Does “one man one woman” marriage mean anything? Or is their understanding of marriage just slightly out of whack, nothing wrong with it?

We hope for heaven because we can see God. They hope for heaven because of the promises of 100’s of young unviolated women to satisfy the carnal desires of the filthy minded men. Is their understanding of the afterlife just a little imperfect?

I could go on ad nauseam, but surely you can see what I am saying?
 
So, is the Truth the truth? Is a lie a lie, or is a lie just not quite the truth?

Is the Catholic Church right, and the others wrong? Or is it just that we’re the most right, and the others are a fair bit right.

And if they are a fair bit right, does the difference mean anything? Does the Trinity mean anything, or is it just cool that we recognise it, and they don’t?

Does “one man one woman” marriage mean anything? Or is their understanding of marriage just slightly out of whack, nothing wrong with it?

We hope for heaven because we can see God. They hope for heaven because of the promises of 100’s of young unviolated women to satisfy the carnal desires of the filthy minded men. Is their understanding of the afterlife just a little imperfect?

I could go on ad nauseam, but surely you can see what I am saying?
Surely you see what the Church has said, that Muslims and Christians both pray to the God of Abraham? Seems fairly straightforward.
 
So, is the Truth the truth? Is a lie a lie, or is a lie just not quite the truth?

Is the Catholic Church right, and the others wrong? Or is it just that we’re the most right, and the others are a fair bit right.

And if they are a fair bit right, does the difference mean anything? Does the Trinity mean anything, or is it just cool that we recognise it, and they don’t?

Does “one man one woman” marriage mean anything? Or is their understanding of marriage just slightly out of whack, nothing wrong with it?

We hope for heaven because we can see God. They hope for heaven because of the promises of 100’s of young unviolated women to satisfy the carnal desires of the filthy minded men. Is their understanding of the afterlife just a little imperfect?

I could go on ad nauseam, but surely you can see what I am saying?
It is not a matter of whether we know more and we’re more cool. It’s a matter of the theology of subsistence.

The FULLNESS OF TRUTH subsists in the Catholic Church. This is not to say that there is no truth anywhere else, even in the Q’ran.

And yes, the Catholic Church does believe that there are parts of the Q’ran that are true, because those same points are found in the Judeo-Christian scriptures. For example, the Q’ran has an entire chapter on Mary. In that chapter they speak of her perpetual virginity. This is truth. We also have that in our Christian Tradtion, even though it is not in the scriptures.

The Q’ran speaks of Efraim and his tribe. This is also truth. We have that from the Hebrew Torah, which forms part of the Christian canon of scripture.

The Q’ran speaks of God as Creator, worthy of all worship and adoration and as the ultimate goal of all humanity. It also speaks of God as one, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and all merciful. This is also found in the Judeo-Christian scriptures.

Those parts of the Q’ran that are truth must be acknowledged as such. The idea that the Q’ran is the product of Satanic influence is a lay idea. It’s not the idea of the Church. Be careful not to promote individual opinions as the opinions of the Church and the Magisterium.

The Church holds that the fullness of truth subsists in the Catholic Church. Nonetheless, there are shadows of truth that God allows to be manifest in other places, faiths, cultures and times. Through these shadows, God hopes to bring all people into communion with him and the Church. The Church teaches that these shadows of truth, if they are followed, will lead to Christ, because all truth leads to Christ.

However, the Church does not say that individuals will always follow these shadows of truth. That is something that neither God or the Church control. The individual, moved by grace will follow them in due time. Faith is a gift. How and when God chooses to bestow this gift is up to him.

This was the argument that the Jews had with Jesus. They tried to limit God’s gift of faith to the Jewish faith and to say that it only came through the line of Judah and that it was only for the line of Judah, not for the Samaritans, Ethiopians,Macabees, Phoenicians and other Jews who were not of the tribe of Judah, when in fact what the profecy said was the the savior would be born from the tribe of Judah, not that God was limmited to act through Judah or within Judah. This Jewish position left out all the other Jewish tribes and the Gentiles. We all know how that story ended.

The same applies to the Muslims. They are not part of the original chosen people, but neither are we, since most of us are of European descent, which makes us Gentiles.

Had Paul subscribed to the belief that no good and no truth could be found among the Gentiles, those of us who are descendants of the Gentiles would not be Christian.

The Holy Fathers have taken the same position as Paul. God reveals himself, even to Muslims. The revelation is not full. Better said, it is incomplete, because of their circumstances. But if they follow the little that they have, which is their faith in the same Godhead, they will eventually come to know the fullness of faith, Jesus Christ.

Hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth. Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

1 John 2:21-23

‘If you do not wish to believe we will commend your soul to God because we declare that if you die while holding to your law you will be lost; God will not accept your soul. For this reason we have come to you.’

St. Francis of Assisi & Brother Illuminato, to the Sultan al-Kamil

‘It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to christian princes where Saracens [Moslems] live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the **infidel **Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place, in the hearing of both Christians and Saracens and there make public declarations in his honour. There is a place, moreover, where once was buried a certain Saracen whom other Saracens venerate as a saint. A great number of Saracens flock there quite openly from far and near. This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated any further without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in christian lands. We enjoin on catholic princes, one and all, who hold sovereignty over the said Saracens and in whose territory these practices occur, and we lay on them a pressing obligation under the divine judgment that, as true Catholics and zealous for the christian faith, they give consideration to the disgrace heaped on both them and other Christians. They are to remove this offence altogether from their territories and take care that their subjects remove it, so that they may thereby attain the reward of eternal happiness. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the **sacrilegious **name of Mahomet. They shall also forbid anyone in their dominions to attempt in future the said pilgrimage or in any way give countenance to it. Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.’

The Ecumenical Council of Vienne, under Pope Clement V

Alas! the very land in which the Lord deigned to work our salvation and which, in order to redeem humanity by payment of his death, he has consecrated by his own blood, has been boldly attacked and occupied over a long period by the impious enemies of the christian name, the **blasphemous **and **faithless **Saracens. They not only rashly retain their conquest, but lay it waste without fear. They slaughter savagely the christian people there to the greater offence of the creator, to the outrage and sorrow of all who profess the catholic faith. “Where is the God of the Christians ?” is the Saracens’ constant reproach, as they taunt them. Such scandals, which neither mind can fully conceive nor tongue tell, inflamed our heart and roused our courage so that we who from experience overseas have not only heard of those events but have looked with our eyes and touched with our hands, might rise to avenge, as far as we can, the insult to the crucified one.

The Ecumenical Second Council of Lyon, Constitutions, under Pope Gregory X

Furthermore, he has deservedly become suspect of heresy. . . he is joined in odious friendship with the Saracens; several times he has sent envoys and gifts to them, and receives the like from them in return with expressions of honour and welcome; he embraces their rites; he openly keeps them with him in his daily services; and, following their customs, he does not blush to appoint as guards, for his wives descended from royal stock, eunuchs whom it is seriously said he has had castrated. And what is more loathsome, when he was in the territory overseas, after he had made an agreement, or rather had come to a wicked understanding with the sultan, he allowed the name of Mahomet to be publicly proclaimed day and night in the Lord’s temple. Recently, after the sultan of Babylon and his followers had brought serious loss and untold injury to the holy Land and its christian inhabitants, he caused the envoys of the sultan to be honourably received and lavishly entertained throughout the kingdom of Sicily with, it is said, every mark of honour being paid to the sultan. Using the deadly and hateful service of other unbelievers against the faithful, and securing a bond by friendship and marriage with those who, wickedly making light of the apostolic see, have separated from the unity of the church, he brought about by assassins the death of the famous duke Ludwig of Bavaria, who was specially devoted to the Roman church, with disregard of the christian religion, and he gave his daughter in marriage to Vatatzes, that enemy of God and the church who, together with his counsellors and supporters, was solemnly separated by excommunication from the communion of the faithful.

The Ecumenical First Council of Lyons, under Pope Innocent IV

God must not take second place to human respect, however much sometimes leaders give into the temptations for diplomacy’s sake. We must love our brothers through God, not slighting His true worship. 🙂

Who knows what future popes will say of what has been done in said in recent times. . . If they are like the Popes of the past, the constant tradition of all Popes… instead of the rare exceptions. . .We are not likely to be having any proclamations of sainthood.
 
I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth. Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

1 John 2:21-23

‘If you do not wish to believe we will commend your soul to God because we declare that if you die while holding to your law you will be lost; God will not accept your soul. For this reason we have come to you.’

St. Francis of Assisi & Brother Illuminato, to the Sultan al-Kamil

‘It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to christian princes where Saracens [Moslems] live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the **infidel **Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place, in the hearing of both Christians and Saracens and there make public declarations in his honour. There is a place, moreover, where once was buried a certain Saracen whom other Saracens venerate as a saint. A great number of Saracens flock there quite openly from far and near. This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated any further without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in christian lands. We enjoin on catholic princes, one and all, who hold sovereignty over the said Saracens and in whose territory these practices occur, and we lay on them a pressing obligation under the divine judgment that, as true Catholics and zealous for the christian faith, they give consideration to the disgrace heaped on both them and other Christians. They are to remove this offence altogether from their territories and take care that their subjects remove it, so that they may thereby attain the reward of eternal happiness. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the **sacrilegious **name of Mahomet. They shall also forbid anyone in their dominions to attempt in future the said pilgrimage or in any way give countenance to it. Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.’

The Ecumenical Council of Vienne, under Pope Clement V

Alas! the very land in which the Lord deigned to work our salvation and which, in order to redeem humanity by payment of his death, he has consecrated by his own blood, has been boldly attacked and occupied over a long period by the impious enemies of the christian name, the **blasphemous **and **faithless **Saracens. They not only rashly retain their conquest, but lay it waste without fear. They slaughter savagely the christian people there to the greater offence of the creator, to the outrage and sorrow of all who profess the catholic faith. “Where is the God of the Christians ?” is the Saracens’ constant reproach, as they taunt them. Such scandals, which neither mind can fully conceive nor tongue tell, inflamed our heart and roused our courage so that we who from experience overseas have not only heard of those events but have looked with our eyes and touched with our hands, might rise to avenge, as far as we can, the insult to the crucified one.

The Ecumenical Council of Lyon, Constitutions, under Pope Gregory X

Furthermore, he has deservedly become suspect of heresy. . . he is joined in odious friendship with the Saracens; several times he has sent envoys and gifts to them, and receives the like from them in return with expressions of honour and welcome; he embraces their rites; he openly keeps them with him in his daily services; and, following their customs, he does not blush to appoint as guards, for his wives descended from royal stock, eunuchs whom it is seriously said he has had castrated. And what is more loathsome, when he was in the territory overseas, after he had made an agreement, or rather had come to a wicked understanding with the sultan, he allowed the name of Mahomet to be publicly proclaimed day and night in the Lord’s temple. Recently, after the sultan of Babylon and his followers had brought serious loss and untold injury to the holy Land and its christian inhabitants, he caused the envoys of the sultan to be honourably received and lavishly entertained throughout the kingdom of Sicily with, it is said, every mark of honour being paid to the sultan. Using the deadly and hateful service of other unbelievers against the faithful, and securing a bond by friendship and marriage with those who, wickedly making light of the apostolic see, have separated from the unity of the church, Had to cut to fit the entire post, sorry.

The Ecumenical First Council of Lyons, under Pope Innocent IV

God must not take second place to human respect, however much sometimes leaders give into the temptations for diplomacy’s sake. We must love our brothers through God, not slighting His true worship. 🙂

Who knows what future popes will say of what has been done in said in recent times. . . If they are like the Popes of the past, the constant tradition of all Popes… instead of the rare exceptions. . .We are not likely to be having any proclamations of sainthood.
Vatican rumor has it that John Paul’s beatification is planned for next year. Bl. John XXIII is on the fast tract to canonization, so is Bl. Mother Teresa, who loved the Muslims and Hindus very much.

Are you saying that Bl. John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI are suspect of heresy?

Why did you not quote from Vatican II?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Vatican rumor has it that John Paul’s beatification is planned for next year. Bl. John XXIII is on the fast tract to canonization, so is Bl. Mother Teresa, who loved the Muslims and Hindus very much.

Are you saying that Bl. John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI are suspect of heresy?

Why did you not quote from Vatican II?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Are you saying that the three Ecumenical Councils are not loving the Muslims and Hindus very much or someone else isn’t? 🙂 Why did you not quote the teachings of the three ecumenical councils, and perhaps a pope declared a saint, like St. Pius X? 🙂

… Do you know how many Blesseds and Venerables we have who have languished there and never made the final step? 🙂 Did you know that Blesseds and Venerables aren’t declared to even be in Heaven?

Do you think that under one of the previous Ecumenical Councils, or sainted Popes, that some of the recent diplomatic overtures would have… gone over… well? 🙂 To put it lightly? 🙂
 
‘If you do not wish to believe we will commend your soul to God because we declare that if you die while holding to your law you will be lost; God will not accept your soul. For this reason we have come to you.’

St. Francis of Assisi & Brother Illuminato, to the Sultan al-Kamil.
As a Franciscan I know for a fact that this citation is out of context. The issue was greater than the Sultan being Muslim. That was part of the issue. The other part of the issue was that the Sultan was persecuting Christians and Jews. Christian Crusaders were being imprisoned and tortured by the Sultan’s followers.

It is believed that our holy father Francis did make this comment to the Sultan. However, we also have an agreement between the Sultan and Francis that led to a later treaty between the Franciscans and Muslims, a treaty that is still honored today by the Muslims, Jews and Franciscans. It allowed the friars free passage to the Holy Land and the establishment of the Franciscan Commisereate of the Holy Land, which is a province of Franciscan friars that is directly under the authority of the Vatican and serves as the diplomatic liasson between the current pope, Benedict XVI and the Muslims in Palestine and Jordan.

After this agreement was made between the Sultan and Francis, our holy father left the Middle East sad because he could not convert the Sultan, but glad because he had inspired the Sultan to practice greater mercy and charity toward the Christians in this particular Sultan’s kingdom. We have to remember, there were many sultans. The Middle East was as divided as Europe was. But this particular tribe of Muslims was always very open to the Franciscans. Throughout the 750 years of Franciscan presence in their area, there were many converts to Catholicism. Most of them converted to Eastern Catholicism helped by the friars.

That’s the whole story of this citation in its proper context. It was not that our father Francis left the Sultan to perish in hell. He was hopeful, because the friars reported that Al-Kamil had complied with his end of the bargain and had began to treat the friars and the Christian prisoners with justice.

Unfortunately, this was not a universal treaty with all Muslim sultans. But that’s another story.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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