Did the prayer of Jesus in John 17 fail?

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Did the prayer of Jesus in John 17 for unity fail?

A evangelical friend has stated that the prayer of Jesus for unity in John 17 was not for the Church in His time or now. The reason he claims this is because Jesus states that “The world may believe that you have sent me” He claims that since the world HAS NEVER believed that God sent Jesus then either the prayer failed (if we take the Catholic view) or the prayer is about Christ return. Then and only then (he claims) that the the world WOULD believe. He claims that since the world has never believed then the Catholic claims are false.

He first asked me to prove that either Jesus or the Apostles taught that historical visiblity determines whether the gates of hell prevailed against the church. I said that the unity of the Church which Christ prayed for is what would show the world that God sent Him. For the Church NOT to be visibly unified means that Jesus would have failed. Therefore Jesus did teach that the historic visibility does determine whether the gates of hell prevailed or not. Because if the Church wasn’t visible then the world wouldn’t have known. If they didn’t know, then Jesus prayer failed and if He failed then the gates of hell would have prevailed.

But, after this, he asked me when has the world ever believed that God sent Jesus? And to be honest, I am stumped on this one. Maybe my answer to him using John 17 to prove that Jesus taught that historical visibility determines whether the gates of hell prevailed or not was wrong. I don’t know. Maybe a better apologist can answer this.

So if any of you guys can help a fellow Catholic out, it would be appreciated.
 
I think there is a 3rd alternative to your answers. The prayer of Jesus in John 17 may refer to all believers for all centuries. However the explanation that the world may believe may have not be answered because we have not seen the fulfillment of that prayer. It may still have to come. Your friend will say no because the fulfillment of that prayer has not arrived yet. He may be pessimistic because it has not happened yet so he justifies himself by saying it will come at the 2nd Coming. But that does not make any sense at all because at the 2nd Coming pratically the whole world will reject God ( this is the reason for His Coming ) so His appearance will not change them at all. The answer you are really looking for is yet to come. We are in the beginning stages of this answer. Jesus prayer will see its fulfillment soon. The prayer of Jesus will see its day. There will come the Unification of His Church and then the Conversion of the whole world. This will come because Jesus said so. Do not let people persuade you from this truth. For God speaks the Truth not us. If Jesus says we will all be united then it will come. Your friend is one who needs to see it to believe it. Trust God for it will come.
 
So the world would believe…were we not of the world and we yet beleive,Jesus knows you will and will not beleive since there has been unbeleivers throughout all of history it will be so on the last day…
By his own words the evangalical friend beleives on the last day all will be saved. For isn’t beleif (faith) all that is required
 
The world will believe that Jesus is sent by God. Before the last times even the Jews will convert to that faith. After the last judgment the immediate evidence will take over the faith, for those in heaven the beatific vision, for those in the hell as part of the torment what they did lost.

As for the unity the parable of the cockle (Matt 13:24-30) is in effect: good and evil grow together.
 
laszlo said:
The world will believe that Jesus is sent by God. Before the last times even the Jews will convert to that faith. After the last judgment the immediate evidence will take over the faith, for those in heaven the beatific vision, for those in the hell as part of the torment what they did lost.

As for the unity the parable of the cockle (Matt 13:24-30) is in effect: good and evil grow together.
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Thank you for mentioning the parable of the cockle, Laszlo. It is an important one to remember with everything going on in the world today.
 
preV2tradcath said:
Thank you for mentioning the parable of the cockle, Laszlo. It is an important one to remember with everything going on in the world today.
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Interesting that this parable should be mentioned now. This was the Gospel for today at Masses in the EF.
 
It has always seemed straightforward to me.

Jesus was saying that to the extent to which we are united, we will be successful in spreading the faith–Christianity will have credibility. The need for a profound unity is repeatedly stressed in the NT.

At the time of the Protestant revolution, the first thing that happened was that Christians started disagreeing with each other over basic doctrine and even hating each other. Persecution among Christians immediately began, as did killing and wars.

We can explain wars BETWEEN religions, but fellow followers of the Prince of Peace killing each other OVER RELIGIOUS disputes? Based upon (initially) exactly the same Scripture? Invoking the same love of Truth, and the assistance of the same Holy Spirit? Huh?

That began a loss of faith in the very existence of knowable truth. Relativism started making a certain amount of sense. It started to seem that perhaps a secular public square was required to keep religious people from killing each other–and that religion was inherently violent.

Now, of course we know that atheism is even more violent, but I don’t think that we should gloss over the point. What happened was a total violation of Christianity, and that made it seem that “faith” equalled “fanaticism.” If even a peaceful religion is murderous in practice… If we look at this objectively, we can see how discrediting and disillusioning this was at the time.

And out of this came the Enlightenment, then modern atheism, and then the collapse of Christianity in Europe.

Seems to me that Christ was right: if we are NOT united, the world will NOT believe that the Father sent him. Faith will be eroded, and conversions dramatically reduced.
 
Hi, Jim: Your friend needs to look at the chapter and the preceding chapter together, not in isolation. The apostles have just learned the fullness of Christ’s divinity, in a sense, Judaism is becoming Christianity here: in Chapter 16, the apostles are taught that they must ask of the Father in Christ’s name. In Chap. 16, world is used in several ways. Christ says in verse 28 that he leaves the world. He does not mean that he will have nothing more to do with it, because he then says he has overcome the world in v. 33. He means that he is leaving the world in body, in other words, that he will soon die.

Then, in Chapter 17, Christ immediately says the prayer for unity. Again he says, in verse 11, that He is no more in the world, but that the apostles remain. Christ does not mean he will not affect the world, he is explaining that his earthly body will be replaced by the Church, which will remain in the world after he has died. He asks the Father to maintain the unity of the apostles. He sanctifies the apostles in verse 19 as he has been sanctified, in other words, the Church is to remain as the sanctified body of Christ after the death of Christ. Then Christ says that he sanctifies and prays not only for the apostles, but for all those “who believe on me through their [the apostles’] word.” Those who believe in them are joined in all Christ’s prayer here, including unity. Looks closely: it says in v 22 “that they may all be one.” “All” means the unified apostles, with the unified believers, who together are “the Church.”

Then Christ explains why is praying this prayer in v. 23: “that [in other words, “in order that”] the world may believe that thou didst send me.” That is Christ’s intent: that the world, collectively, learns the Gospel to all men’s salvation. Christ is not prophesying universal salvation - He is not saying “one day the every person in the world will believe that Thou didst send me.” He is announcing his intention, or plan, for His Church, which he has been clarifying through all of Chap 16 and 17. The intention is that a unified Church will take his bodily place for the spreading of the Gospel, and that he wants the Church to preach the gospel to the whole world. He wants the “world” to see that the Father loves the Church as the Father loves the Son (v. 23).

Christ knows that some men will reject the Gospel, just as he knows some will hate his Church: He already told the apostles in Ch 16 that they will soon suffer tribulation. Even so, Christ nonetheless desires the world to know the Gospel and know his Church.

Your friend is confusing prophesy with explanation. It woud be as if someone failed to understand the meaning of a parable, and went looking for the actual mustard tree, field of cockles, or camel referred to in His teachings.
 
The prayer of the Holy One did not fail. The unity for which He prayed is inherent in the Church lead by the Successor of Saint Peter. That unity has never been nor shall it ever be broken or lost. It is our task to bring those outside that already existing unity INTO it.
 
Interesting. I’ve thought about this very question over the past few days. Consider the curiosity (often outright hostility) that arose in Mediæval Jerusalem between pilgrims from Catholic Europe and those from Orthodox Asia, and Ethiopians, Armenians, Jacobites, and others. All very alien and incomprehensible to each other.
 
Going by verses 20 & 21, it seems pretty succinct to me. Jesus is asking the Father to endorse a covenant (a two way promise) that he is making with us. Jesus starts by praying for himself. In verse 9 he begins praying for the apostles. In verse 20 he broadens his prayer by stating that he isn’t just praying for the apostles, but also for all those who believe in him, that we may be one, that the world may be converted.

Well, we’re not all one yet, so the world hasn’t been converted yet.

Whether the Eucharist becomes the literal body of Christ at the moment it touches a person’s mouth or at the moment the priest finishes the prayer, whether two fingers are used or three fingers, whether an old or new calendar is used, there are a host of questions that have divided the different branches of Christians through the last two millenia. These questions are important to Christians of different faiths – I’m not saying they should be ignored, but they pale beside the question, “Do you love your neighbor”? Various wars in the last two millenia testify that no, not all Christians have loved their Christian neighbors.

If we all really tried to love our Christian neighbors and be “one” with them, then the world would be converted to Christianity.
 
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