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Mickey
Guest
Someday, maybe TQ will come home too!
- Status
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Eden
Guest
He’s missing out on the party!Someday, maybe TQ will come home too!
http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/14.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/dancing/3.gif http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/5.gif http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/4.gif http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/14.gif
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bhlincoln
Guest
Several nicely worded responses. Thanks Scylla!
scylla:
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Imconfused
Guest
They do not reject the Chruch’s authority the way Luther did, and they do not reject the Sacraments the way Luther did, and they do not found new Churchs the way Luther did. Your question does not apply.
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Egg4christ
Guest
“Imconfused”, you think one can only start a Godly mission without God when starting a new church. a forceful response to a protestant post, although pure in intention, can be destructive apart from God. I think perhaps a better quesetion to complement the one of “theological cowboys” is to ask who needs a miracle to prove their mission is of God? Does the new Pope? Do decans? does your local priest? what about the woman trying to start a food pantry at your church?
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scylla
Guest
These examples aren’t people creating disunity, they are remaining unified with the faith in their ministries. Becoming a deacon is not striking out on their own. Did the new Pope start a new Church?
God Bless
Scylla
God Bless
Scylla
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Actually, I believe it wasn’t until the Council of Trent that the seven sacraments were actually solemnly and explicity defined. Before that, you’d have to go to the writings of Peter Lombard. During the history of the Early Church, there were vast practices and opinions regarding the sacraments (see New Advent’s article
here).
In terms of the sacramental theology of Luther (the Lutheran ‘thread’ of Protestantism), Luther actually saw three sacraments as explicit: baptism, eucharist, and penance. Thomas Cranmer (from the Anglican tradition) also saw the same three as “explicit.” The Catholic Church at Trent defined seven, and the Church of England formally recognized two (baptism and eucharist) as explicit, and the other five as “lesser” sacraments.
Even the Catholic Church readily admits that all seven of the sacraments were not explicitly instituted by Christ, but that Christ did lay the foundation for them.
O+
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Eden
Guest
Egg4christ said:
You asked who needs a miracle to prove their mission to God? I’d love to discuss miracles! I’ll put some links below so as not to hijack the thread. The proof of the new Pope’s mission to God does not need to include miracles. He is the successor of Peter and he inherited apostolic succession. The deposit of faith has been passed down through to Catholic bishops generation after generation since the apostles. There is no question as to the origin of his authority. Here is the unbroken list of every Pope since Peter: newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
Without apostolic succession, Luther had no authority to change the Church that Christ had founded. He didn’t just reform corruption within the Church. He reformed theology- the deposit of faith which was given to us from Christ and revelation. He had no authority to improve our Lord’s design. Even the successors to the apostles wouldn’t deign to do such a thing.
As far as miracles that have occurred within the Catholic faith - where to begin? There are many books on the subject of miracles within the Church if you are interested. Here are just a few sites:
stillcatholic.com/CATHMir.htm
catholic.com/library/Do_Miracles_Still_Occur.asp
members.aol.com/bjw1106/euchmir.htm
geocities.com/anthonybrach/
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TertiumQuid
Guest
First class miracles? Anyone in Catholicism raise the dead recently (Matt. 10:8)? The Protestant Reformers did not perform miracles to confirm their doctrine because the Lord and the apostles had already performed miracles to confirm the Gospel and the teaching of the Scriptures. There were no miracles necessary, because no new revelation was given to the Reformers.
Secondly, there is no logical conclusion that must say, Biblical miracles occurred, so present miracles must occur. The miracles in the Bible occur in only a few distinct periods. Jesus promised that miracles would happen after his death, but he never promised they would continue throughout history until the end of the world.
By who’s standard? Who says the supposed miracles “through the Catholic Church” are actually real miracles? Why, the Roman Catholic Church probably tells us this. On the other hand, the miracles the Reformers believed in were real miracles because God said they were real miracles.
Deduction. The Lord states, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” Paul states, “Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders…” The Lord also states, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
If the Bible records real miracles, and with those miracles, we have an infallible standard by which to judge alleged miracles. If the Roman Catholic Church denies the gospel, Biblically, it follows they stand condemned by the words of Christ and Paul stated above.
I am somewhat of a cessationist, yes.
I would call them counterfeit miracles, if those performing them deny the Gospel. As to “counterfeit”, I would speculate they are either hoaxes, or possibly done by the power of Satan, though even here I wonder if Satan actually has the power to perform real miracles.
See my last paragraph.
Just for clarification, do Roman Catholic scholars consider the last section of Mark 16 to be God breathed Scripture?
James Swan
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TertiumQuid
Guest
We stand in awe of the Biblical miracles that confirm the authority of the Lord and the apostles. We are satisfied with these. We live by faith alone, not by some need to be blown away by continued miracles. Christ and his work are sufficient.
The saints on this earth are closer to Hitler than to Christ. Christ’s righteousness is infinite and perfect.
I doubt you’ve ever read Calvin.
What Calvin gave was biblical scholarship. His works are considered some of the best biblical scholarship of all time. I would rather understand the Bible than look for “miracles”.
The only “incorruptible” is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Mistaken argument. The Reformers reaffirmed the teaching of the Bible that had been corrupted by the Roman Catholic Church.
Regards,
James Swan
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bhlincoln
Guest
O.S. Luke:
There is Scriptural backing for all 7 seven Sacraments, and quotes from the early Church Fathers that show the Church has always believed in the 7 Sacraments, so whether the Church solemnly defined the 7 Sacraments or not is really irrelavant when it comes to whether the Church has believed in them and that we must believe in them.
BH
protestanterrors.com
It is true that the Council of Trent solemnly defined the 7 Sacraments in response to the errors of the Reformation. Though it is important to note the Church doesn’t HAVE to teach anything solemnly. The Church teaches that we are also to believe Her everyday teaching as well (the ordinary magisterium) which was confirmed solemnly at the 1st Vatican Council.
There is Scriptural backing for all 7 seven Sacraments, and quotes from the early Church Fathers that show the Church has always believed in the 7 Sacraments, so whether the Church solemnly defined the 7 Sacraments or not is really irrelavant when it comes to whether the Church has believed in them and that we must believe in them.
BH
protestanterrors.com
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Eden
Guest
The opening paragraph in the Catholic Answers article “Do Miracles Still Occur?” sums it up nicely:
**To discredit the countless miracles that had been given in confirmation of the Catholic faith, the original Protestant Reformers utterly rejected the idea that miracles had continued beyond the apostolic age. **
catholic.com/library/Do_Miracles_Still_Occur.asp
Here is St. Augustine on miracles:
stillcatholic.com/CATHMir.htm
Augustine
**“In the same city of Carthage lived Innocentia, a very devout woman of the highest rank in the state. She had cancer in one of her breasts, a disease which, as physicians say, is incurable. . . . This lady we speak of had been advised by a skillful physician, who was intimate with her family, and she betook herself to God alone in prayer. On the approach of Easter, she was instructed in a dream to wait for the first woman that came out of the baptistery after being baptized and to have her make the sign of Christ upon the sore. She did so, and was immediately cured” (*The City of God *22:8 [A.D. 419]). **
**“For even now miracles are wrought in the name of Christ, whether by his sacraments or by the prayers or relics of his saints. . . . But who but a very small number are aware of the cure which was wrought upon Innocentius . . . a cure wrought at Carthage, in my presence, and under my own eyes? . . . For he and all his household were devotedly pious. He was being treated by medical men for fistulae, of which he had a large number. . . . He had already undergone an operation but clearly needed another. . . . [H]e cast himself down . . . and began to pray; but in what a manner, with what earnestness and emotion, with what a flood of tears, with what groans and sobs, that shook his whole body and almost prevented him speaking. . . . [And when the] surgeons arrived, all that the circumstances required was ready; the frightful instruments were produced; all look on in wonder and suspense. . . . [But the surgeon] finds a perfectly firm scar! No words of mine can describe the joy, and praise, and thanksgiving to the merciful and almighty God, which was poured from the lips of all with tears of gladness. Let the scene [of rejoicing] be imagined rather than described!” (ibid.). **
**“A gouty doctor of the same city, when he had given his name for baptism and had been forbidden the day before his baptism from being baptized that year by black woolly-haired boys who appeared to him in his dreams (and whom he understood to be devils), and when . . . he refused to obey them but overcame them and would not defer being washed in the laver of regeneration, was relieved in the very act of baptism, not only of the extraordinary pain he was tortured with, but also of the disease itself” (ibid.). **
**“What am I to do? I am so pressed by the promise of finishing this work that I cannot record all the miracles I know, and doubtless several of our adherents, when they read what I have narrated, will regret that I have omitted many which they, as well as I, certainly know. Even now I beg these persons to excuse me and to consider how long it would take me to relate all those miracles, which the necessity of finishing the work I have undertaken forces me to omit. . . . Even now, therefore, many miracles are wrought, the same God who wrought those we read of [in the Bible is] still performing them, by whom he will and as he will” (ibid.). **
**To discredit the countless miracles that had been given in confirmation of the Catholic faith, the original Protestant Reformers utterly rejected the idea that miracles had continued beyond the apostolic age. **
catholic.com/library/Do_Miracles_Still_Occur.asp
Here is St. Augustine on miracles:
stillcatholic.com/CATHMir.htm
Augustine
**“In the same city of Carthage lived Innocentia, a very devout woman of the highest rank in the state. She had cancer in one of her breasts, a disease which, as physicians say, is incurable. . . . This lady we speak of had been advised by a skillful physician, who was intimate with her family, and she betook herself to God alone in prayer. On the approach of Easter, she was instructed in a dream to wait for the first woman that came out of the baptistery after being baptized and to have her make the sign of Christ upon the sore. She did so, and was immediately cured” (*The City of God *22:8 [A.D. 419]). **
**“For even now miracles are wrought in the name of Christ, whether by his sacraments or by the prayers or relics of his saints. . . . But who but a very small number are aware of the cure which was wrought upon Innocentius . . . a cure wrought at Carthage, in my presence, and under my own eyes? . . . For he and all his household were devotedly pious. He was being treated by medical men for fistulae, of which he had a large number. . . . He had already undergone an operation but clearly needed another. . . . [H]e cast himself down . . . and began to pray; but in what a manner, with what earnestness and emotion, with what a flood of tears, with what groans and sobs, that shook his whole body and almost prevented him speaking. . . . [And when the] surgeons arrived, all that the circumstances required was ready; the frightful instruments were produced; all look on in wonder and suspense. . . . [But the surgeon] finds a perfectly firm scar! No words of mine can describe the joy, and praise, and thanksgiving to the merciful and almighty God, which was poured from the lips of all with tears of gladness. Let the scene [of rejoicing] be imagined rather than described!” (ibid.). **
**“A gouty doctor of the same city, when he had given his name for baptism and had been forbidden the day before his baptism from being baptized that year by black woolly-haired boys who appeared to him in his dreams (and whom he understood to be devils), and when . . . he refused to obey them but overcame them and would not defer being washed in the laver of regeneration, was relieved in the very act of baptism, not only of the extraordinary pain he was tortured with, but also of the disease itself” (ibid.). **
**“What am I to do? I am so pressed by the promise of finishing this work that I cannot record all the miracles I know, and doubtless several of our adherents, when they read what I have narrated, will regret that I have omitted many which they, as well as I, certainly know. Even now I beg these persons to excuse me and to consider how long it would take me to relate all those miracles, which the necessity of finishing the work I have undertaken forces me to omit. . . . Even now, therefore, many miracles are wrought, the same God who wrought those we read of [in the Bible is] still performing them, by whom he will and as he will” (ibid.). **
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Eden
Guest
Regarding the Seven Sacraments:
catholic-rcia.com/pages/7sacraments.html
1) Baptism: **Baptism is a true sacrament instituted by Christ. It is administered by washing with natural water and at the same time invoking the Most Holy Trinity. Anybody, even an unbeliever or a heretic can validly administer baptism. Since it confers grace by the signs’ being properly carried out children can and should be baptized even while still infants. Baptism is necessary for salvation. Baptism effects the remission of original sin and actual sins and of all punishment due to sin; it confers sanctifying grace, membership in Christ and in the Church and the obligation to obey the Church’s laws, and give an indelible character. **
**2) Penance: The Church has the power to forgive all sins. This forgiveness of sins is a true sacrament instituted by Christ, different from baptism, particularly on account of its judicial form. Sins are forgiven only by the sacrament of penance. Sins are forgiven by absolution which can only be given by an authorized priest. It is a real judicial pardon. The Church has the power to reserve certain cases. **
**3) Eucharist: Doctrine about the Eucharistic sacrament, sacrificial meal and sacrificial food: The Holy Eucharist is a true sacrament, instituted by Christ. Christ is really present in the Holy Eucharist, even when not being received. It is therefore to be honored and adored. The whole Christ is present in either kind and is received by the communicant. For the wheat bread and grape wine are transubstantiated by the ordained priest into the flesh and blood of Christ so that only the appearance of bread and wine remains. **
4) Confirmation: Confirmation is a true sacrament instituted by Christ and different from baptism. It is administered by laying-on of hands and anointing with chrism accompanied by prayer. The chrism is blessed by the bishop and the bishop administers the sacrament. All baptized persons can and should be confirmed. The effect of the sacrament of confirmation is to give strength in faith and for the confession of faith and to impress an indelible character.
**5) Matrimony: Matrimony is the marriage contract between Christians raised by Christ to the dignity of a sacrament. The theological and dogmatic treatment of this sacrament does not look very much to its main features of unity and indissolubility which are basic characteristics of all marriage in natural ethics; they are rather premisses, though of course they attain greater significance and depth and stability in marriage as a sacrament. The fact, then, that these features take up a considerable amount of space in Church documents must not be allowed to hide the theological content of this sacrament which comes to us from revelation and belongs to the supernatural order. As a sacrament matrimony is entirely oriented on man’s supernatural goal… The mutual sacrifice and devotion of husband and wife is a true picture of Christ’s sanctifying sacrifice and devotion to His Church. ‘Matrimony has its significance in the first place from Christ who took the Church as his bride at the price of his own blood. And also because when he offered his life as the price of her ransom, he stretched our his arms in an embrace of supreme love. And thirdly: as Eve was formed from the side of Adam while he slept, so the Church was formed from the side of the dying and dead Christ, as the two chief sacraments poured from his side - the blood of redemption and the water of absolution’ (Albertus Magnus). **
catholic-rcia.com/pages/7sacraments.html
1) Baptism: **Baptism is a true sacrament instituted by Christ. It is administered by washing with natural water and at the same time invoking the Most Holy Trinity. Anybody, even an unbeliever or a heretic can validly administer baptism. Since it confers grace by the signs’ being properly carried out children can and should be baptized even while still infants. Baptism is necessary for salvation. Baptism effects the remission of original sin and actual sins and of all punishment due to sin; it confers sanctifying grace, membership in Christ and in the Church and the obligation to obey the Church’s laws, and give an indelible character. **
**2) Penance: The Church has the power to forgive all sins. This forgiveness of sins is a true sacrament instituted by Christ, different from baptism, particularly on account of its judicial form. Sins are forgiven only by the sacrament of penance. Sins are forgiven by absolution which can only be given by an authorized priest. It is a real judicial pardon. The Church has the power to reserve certain cases. **
**3) Eucharist: Doctrine about the Eucharistic sacrament, sacrificial meal and sacrificial food: The Holy Eucharist is a true sacrament, instituted by Christ. Christ is really present in the Holy Eucharist, even when not being received. It is therefore to be honored and adored. The whole Christ is present in either kind and is received by the communicant. For the wheat bread and grape wine are transubstantiated by the ordained priest into the flesh and blood of Christ so that only the appearance of bread and wine remains. **
4) Confirmation: Confirmation is a true sacrament instituted by Christ and different from baptism. It is administered by laying-on of hands and anointing with chrism accompanied by prayer. The chrism is blessed by the bishop and the bishop administers the sacrament. All baptized persons can and should be confirmed. The effect of the sacrament of confirmation is to give strength in faith and for the confession of faith and to impress an indelible character.
**5) Matrimony: Matrimony is the marriage contract between Christians raised by Christ to the dignity of a sacrament. The theological and dogmatic treatment of this sacrament does not look very much to its main features of unity and indissolubility which are basic characteristics of all marriage in natural ethics; they are rather premisses, though of course they attain greater significance and depth and stability in marriage as a sacrament. The fact, then, that these features take up a considerable amount of space in Church documents must not be allowed to hide the theological content of this sacrament which comes to us from revelation and belongs to the supernatural order. As a sacrament matrimony is entirely oriented on man’s supernatural goal… The mutual sacrifice and devotion of husband and wife is a true picture of Christ’s sanctifying sacrifice and devotion to His Church. ‘Matrimony has its significance in the first place from Christ who took the Church as his bride at the price of his own blood. And also because when he offered his life as the price of her ransom, he stretched our his arms in an embrace of supreme love. And thirdly: as Eve was formed from the side of Adam while he slept, so the Church was formed from the side of the dying and dead Christ, as the two chief sacraments poured from his side - the blood of redemption and the water of absolution’ (Albertus Magnus). **
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Eden
Guest
6) Holy Orders: Order is a true sacrament instituted by Christ who ordained the Apostles at the Last Supper. It is administered by the laying on of hands and the key phrases of the ordination preface. Only a Bishop can validly ordain. Order is a purely ecclesiastical concern. The effect of the sacrament of order is to impart the Holy Spirit and to impress an indelible character, which permanently distinguishes those in orders from the laity. The laity also has a part in Christ’s priesthood, but in another manner. The office of Bishop is above the priesthood (which in turn is above the diaconate) and gives special powers of consecration. To the priesthood belong the celebration of Holy Mass and the power of forgiving sins. The subdiaconate belongs to the priesthood and diaconate to the ‘major orders.’ In addition, the four ‘minor orders’ were instituted by the Church. Conditions for the valid reception of order are baptism and being of the male sex.
7) Anointing of the Sick: Extreme Unction is a true sacrament instituted by Christ and proclaimed by St. James. It is administered by anointing with blessed oil accompanied by prayer. Only a priest can validly administer it. It can be received by any baptized person who has reached the age of reason and is on account of sickness or age in danger of death. Its effect is the strengthening of the soul, often of the body as well, and in the necessary conditions remission of sins.
The Council of Trent upheld the validity of the Sacraments.
7) Anointing of the Sick: Extreme Unction is a true sacrament instituted by Christ and proclaimed by St. James. It is administered by anointing with blessed oil accompanied by prayer. Only a priest can validly administer it. It can be received by any baptized person who has reached the age of reason and is on account of sickness or age in danger of death. Its effect is the strengthening of the soul, often of the body as well, and in the necessary conditions remission of sins.
The Council of Trent upheld the validity of the Sacraments.
S
scylla
Guest
Hello James,
I believe the reference to the uncorruptables was not in contrast, to Jesus Christ in any way, this was a reference to saints who have been discovered to be uncorruptable.
God Bless
Scylla
I believe the reference to the uncorruptables was not in contrast, to Jesus Christ in any way, this was a reference to saints who have been discovered to be uncorruptable.
This bothers me that someone would say this please explain better what right they had to start their own churches, isn’t this more a divorce than a reform? At what point in history was the Church corrupted or was it in your opinion a gradual change?
God Bless
Scylla
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Eden
Guest
Some may not understand the reference to incorruptibles. Just as it does not take away from an artist to admire his paintings, so it does not take away from Christ to admire the saints. St. Bernadette’s body is one of over 250 saints whose bodies remain incorrupt (I once read that hundreds more were destroyed during the reign of King Henry VIII):
catholicapologetics.org/ap070500.htm
Catholic Christians operate from an Incarnational Principle: they sometimes make use of statues, images, medals, relics, and other objects to call to mind their relationship with the communion of saints of the past. These “religious objects” are used to simply recall to mind the example of a particular saint and to remind us of their nearness to God and their power to intercede for us on earth. Mk 5:27-29 She (the woman with a hemorrhage) had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak. She said, “If I but touch his clothes, I shall be cured.” Immediately her flow of blood dried up. Acts 5:15 Thus they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and mats so that when Peter came by, at least his shadow might fall on one or another of them. Acts 19:11-12 So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
The Incorruptibles
As an affirmation to our faith, and not the reason we believe, we recognize miraculous events concerning the bodies of some saints whose souls have gone to be with the Lord. The physical remains of some saints have been preserved in physical states not in the common natural order. Some saints whose bodies have been preserved without artificial means include: St. Bernadette Soubirous, St. Catherine Laboure, St. John Vianney, Sr. Theresa Margaret, St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Francis Xavier, St. Louise de Marillac, and Blessed John XXIII.
St. Bernadette a century after her death:
http://cuftucson.org/bernadette1.jpg
catholicapologetics.org/ap070500.htm
Catholic Christians operate from an Incarnational Principle: they sometimes make use of statues, images, medals, relics, and other objects to call to mind their relationship with the communion of saints of the past. These “religious objects” are used to simply recall to mind the example of a particular saint and to remind us of their nearness to God and their power to intercede for us on earth. Mk 5:27-29 She (the woman with a hemorrhage) had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak. She said, “If I but touch his clothes, I shall be cured.” Immediately her flow of blood dried up. Acts 5:15 Thus they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and mats so that when Peter came by, at least his shadow might fall on one or another of them. Acts 19:11-12 So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
The Incorruptibles
As an affirmation to our faith, and not the reason we believe, we recognize miraculous events concerning the bodies of some saints whose souls have gone to be with the Lord. The physical remains of some saints have been preserved in physical states not in the common natural order. Some saints whose bodies have been preserved without artificial means include: St. Bernadette Soubirous, St. Catherine Laboure, St. John Vianney, Sr. Theresa Margaret, St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Francis Xavier, St. Louise de Marillac, and Blessed John XXIII.
St. Bernadette a century after her death:
http://cuftucson.org/bernadette1.jpg
B
bhlincoln
Guest
Multiple centuries of writings of first class miracles in lives of the Saints isn’t good enough for you? Now you want something “recently”? Rather the question for you is, not recently but have the Reformers or any Protestants thereafter EVER performed a first class miracle? Clearly we can see NOT.
You say miracles stopped, yet century after century we have seen them among the Saints. You are simply in denial.
Neither did Jesus say miracles would NOT continue throughout history either. Instead we see quotes in Scripture where Our Lord tells us plainly to believe Him for the very sake of the miracles He performed, and that those who do, will also perform similar works:
John 14:12: “Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works
that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.”
Isn’t it a coincidence then that the Saints have been the only ones throughout history to have been written to perform the same works as Our Lord?
It is God’s decision to perform miracles through his messengers. When they always occur through Catholics for centuries and never through Protestants, you have to ask yourself why. And if you choose to put your head in the sand and not believe all of them you ought to reconsider the words of Scripture such as “blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed” John 20:29 and “And he wrought not many miracles there, because of their unbelief” Matt 13:58.
Go look at them! Go see the incorrutibles. Go to Lourdes and see the research that has been done and the people that have been healed. Go see the relics of Eucharistic miracles on display throughout Europe. Go see the research done on Fatima by non-Catholics. There is PLENTY there for you to go look at. Looking the other way and simply claiming they are false will not allow you to be able to claim ignorance on this matter in the eyes of God.
We are all aware of this in Scripture. Are you really going to collectively place ALL Saints in the history of the Church into the false Christs and false prophets category, the holiest people in the history of the Church of which no reformer has ever even come close to approaching in holiness? To attack the Saints when it is as plain as day that the Protestant reformers lack holiness altogether is just a smoke screen. Scripture tells us how to determine false prophets “by their fruits you shall know them”. That is how we tell.
So now I guess you’re saying all the Saints have denied the Gospel? Your argument is beyond absurdity.
BH
protestanterrors.com
M
Malachi4U
Guest
Hi TQ,
The DE-formers lost all rights when they disobeyed Scriputre - Gods Word - violeted its basic commands, and became SCHISMATICS! The sheep they led astray need our prayers. Like all schisms though, the Protestant (de/re-formation) schism is withering on the vine. The Catholic Church is stronger then ever and the schismatics are in disarray. The schismatics will continue to schism unto oblivian like all those before them. We see this every day when they divide old sects and start knew ones. When they allow abortion (the pill), gay ministers, etc…
C
Curious
Guest
From my EXTREMELY scant readings of what happened in the Reformation, I was under the impression that Luther’s original intention was not to break away from the Catholic Church, but to help “fix” it. Is that true? And if so, what was the turning point that transformed “fixing” into the big schism?
T
TertiumQuid
Guest
Hi Bh Lincoln,
Here’s a “gift” in writing I just got from a friend, and i’d like to share with you!
Chrysostom says miracles ceased…
**Chrysostom (349-407): ** But mark, I pray thee, how great a multitude of persons healed the evangelists pass quickly over, not mentioning one by one, and giving us an account of them, but in one word traversing an unspeakable sea of miracles. Then lest the greatness of the wonder should drive us again to unbelief, that even so great a people and their various diseases should be delivered and healed by Him in one moment of time, He brings in the prophet also to bear witness to what is going on: indicating the abundance of the proof we have, in every case, out of the Scriptures; such, that from the miracles themselves we have no more; and He saith, that Esaias also spake of these things; “He took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.” He said not, “He did them away,” but “He took and bare them;” which seems to me to be spoken rather of sins, by the prophet, in harmony with John, where he saith, “Behold the Lamb of God, that beareth the sin of the world.” NPNF1: Vol. X, Homilies on Matthew, Homily 27, §2.
**Chrysostom (349-407): ** For when Christ performed miracles, they often contradicted Him. But when Christ brought forward the prophet, saying, “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou on my right hand,” they were silent, and “no man,” we read, “was able to answer Him a word.” And on all occasions He Himself also appealed to the Scriptures; for instance, “If he called them gods to whom the word of God came.” (John x. 35.) And in many places one may find this. On this account here also Peter says, “I will pour out of my spirit upon all flesh;” that is, upon the Gentiles also. But he does not yet reveal this, nor give interpretations; indeed, it was better not to do so (as also this obscure saying, “I will show wonders in heaven above,” put them the more in fear because it was obscure.) And it would have been more an offence, had it been interpreted from the very first. Then besides, even as plain, he passes over it, wishing to make them regard it as such. But after all, he does interpret to them anon, when he discourses to them upon the resurrection, and after he has paved the way by his discourse. *NPNF1: Vol. XI, Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles, Homily 5. *
Chrysostom (349-407), speaking of the impossibility of the dead to speak to the living: But God, forseeing all these things, has prevented such an attempt, and out of regard for us, has not permitted any one at any time to come from thence to relate to living men the things that take place there. He has taught us to regard the Holy Scriptures as more worthy of trust than everything else. For He has made certain things more clear to us than they would have been made by the resurrection of the dead; He has instructed the whole world; He has driven away error, and brought in the truth; He has, by the instrumentality of fishermen and men of no reputation, procured all these benefits, and afforded to us on all sides sufficient proofs of His own providence. F. Allen, trans., Four Discourses of Chrysostom, Chiefly on the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, 4th Sermon, §3 (London: Longmans, Green, Reader and Dyer, 1869), p. 99. Cf. Catharine P. Roth, trans., St. John Chrysostom On Wealth and Poverty, 4th Sermon (Crestwood: St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1984), pp. 86-87.
**Chrysostom (349-407): ** In order to learn another reason why the teaching of the prophets is more worthy of belief than the report of those who rise from the dead, consider this fact, that every dead person is a servant, but what the Scriptures utter, the Master has uttered. So even if a dead person rises, even if an angel descends from Heaven, the Scriptures are more worthy of belief than any of them. For the Master of the angels, the Lord of the dead and the living, Himself has given the Scriptures their authority. Cf. Catharine P. Roth, trans., St. John Chrysostom On Wealth and Poverty, 4th Sermon (Crestwood: St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1984), p. 85.
Regards,
James Swan
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