Did the Virgin Mary appear to Socrates?

[cathdoki]

To what end? Mary only appears to direct people to her son. Methinks you may be elevating Socrates to some kind of sainthood. Though Socratic thought is valuable, this is not enough for canonization. As far as a “great man” he was not. He was intelligent, but that is not a mark of greatness.

You’ve re-stated the point we’ve both made. Mary’s intent for appearing is only to bring people to God. Not just to state that we will die at a certain time. While God could have Mary appear back in time, there is no indication from the original post that it was to bring Socrates to God, just to warn him of his impending death.

 

[CWBetts]

What happened to AdvocatusFidei’s post? I went to the kitchen to prepare sandwiches for my kids and return to respond to your post and poof! It’s gone. Oh, well.

What I wanted to say is that I agree. I think Mary could have appeared to Socrates and there are noble reasons for the occassion. My personal understanding is that Socrates cleared the way for the coming of the Lord and he and Plato surpassed knowledge in such a way that only with God’s blessings could they have done so.

P.s.
Also, I have found a solution for a Platonic problem that has not been solved. I carried the problem with me for many years and I think that I have resolved it. I was thinking of someday publishing it in a philosophical journal but that’s a dream. I am not a good writer at all nor do I do well with the language of logic. So, I think that I will publish it here someday. Stay tuned. For those of you who like to give credit; just note Abba@CAF.

You may not publicly proclaim that Mary appeared to Socrates.

 

[Abba]

You may not publicly proclaim that Mary appeared to Socrates.

I don’t think anyone is proclaiming that Mary appeared to Socrates. Neither am I proclaiming that Socrates is a Saint as I think you may be the poster to claim I was doing. This is not for me to do.

It seems to me that you want the topic closed. Why does the discussion bother you so much? Also, please note that AdvocatusFidei did not write that Mary appeared to Socrates. He wrote if I remember his words that he basically that Mary could have appeared in a time before her birth. Perhaps, you can explain why it would be theologically forbidden for Mary to be outside of the time from when she was born. Illuminate me.

 

[Abba]

CWBetts,

Pardon me, but, I did not study at Steubenvile. I can barely write. If you could humbly explain your thought process rather than make proclamations, I will make an effort to understand and read your posts. I am not canonizing anyone nor proclaiming any new doctrine of the Church. I do not appreciate these comments and insinuations. Maybe this thread is too stupid for you.

 

[CWBetts]

I don’t think anyone is proclaiming that Mary appeared to Socrates. Neither am I proclaiming that Socrates is a Saint as I think you may be the poster to claim I was doing. This is not for me to do.

It seems to me that you want the topic closed. Why does the discussion bother you so much? Also, please note that AdvocatusFidei did not write that Mary appeared to Socrates. He wrote if I remember his words that he basically that Mary could have appeared in a time before her birth. Perhaps, you can explain why it would be theologically forbidden for Mary to be outside of the time from when she was born. Illuminate me.

It bothers me because it is wrong. It is this kind of thing that provided ammunition to fundamentalists that we worship Mary by assigning her attributes that belong only to God. Your insistence that Mary appeared to a Pagan philosopher does nothing to further the cause of Christ. Of course, being more of a neo-Thomist in thought, I have much less respect for Plato and Socrates than Aristotle.

 

[JohnDamian]

It bothers me because it is wrong. It is this kind of thing that provided ammunition to fundamentalists that we worship Mary by assigning her attributes that belong only to God. Your insistence that Mary appeared to a Pagan philosopher does nothing to further the cause of Christ. Of course, being more of a neo-Thomist in thought, I have much less respect for Plato and Socrates than Aristotle.

You are not giving enough thought to the potential of God to act outside of Time, I refer you to St Peter Damians De Divina Omnipotentia. So it is not impossible for God to perform such a thing.

However, when you say that it is wrong you deny Thomas Aquinas analagorical predication, you are applying a univocal understanding of goodness, aptness or truth (etc) as a predicate to an act. This contradicts Thomistic teachings. You cannot say that the act is both within the power of God, and also against the will of God; without accepting a general univocity; which contradicts analagorical predication.

 

[CWBetts]

You are not giving enough thought to the potential of God to act outside of Time, I refer you to St Peter Damians De Divina Omnipotentia. So it is not impossible for God to perform such a thing.

However, when you say that it is wrong you deny Thomas Aquinas analagorical predication, you are applying a univocal understanding of goodness, aptness or truth (etc) as a predicate to an act. This contradicts Thomistic teachings. You cannot say that the act is both within the power of God, and also against the will of God; without accepting a general univocity; which contradicts analagorical predication.

I never said it is outside of the power of God. What I have said is that this is not consistent with any documented Marian apparition and must therefore be discarded. Here endeth the lesson.

 

[Abba]

CWBetts,

I am of the understanding that you may be under pressure to come up with original thoughts. That is too bad. It is not how true theology works. It is ludicrous to try and ponder to ‘discover’ something and sell books like hot cakes and get recognition. This is false theology. I don’t know who it was that said something like the best theologians work on their knees. Now, this is true. However, if you see something original you do not have to try to burn it and condemn the person. That is very sad. Is this jealousy or pride or both?

It is this kind of thing that provided ammunition to fundamentalists that we worship Mary by assigning her attributes that belong only to God. Your insistence that Mary appeared to a Pagan philosopher does nothing to further the cause of Christ. Of course, being more of a neo-Thomist in thought, I have much less respect for Plato and Socrates than Aristotle.

You are not really participating in the discussion. You are just trying to close it. CENSURED. Who are you, may I ask? I think the Pope is still in Rome. Praise be to God!

I am not attributing to Mary attributes that belong only to God. And, believe it or not, God loves every single little pagan just as much as he loves you.

If you please, I would appreciate it if you stop blocking the discussion. I would like to discuss why or why not this could or could not be so. I think the moderators can handle. Thank you.

 

[cathdoki]

CWBetts,

I am of the understanding that you may be under pressure to come up with original thoughts. That is too bad. It is not how true theology works. It is ludicrous to try and ponder to ‘discover’ something and sell books like hot cakes and get recognition. This is false theology. I don’t know who it was that said something like the best theologians work on their knees. Now, this is true. However, if you see something original you do not have to try to burn it and condemn the person. That is very sad. Is this jealousy or pride or both?

You are not really participating in the discussion. You are just trying to close it. CENSURED. Who are you, may I ask? I think the Pope is still in Rome. Praise be to God!

I am not attributing to Mary attributes that belong only to God. And, believe it or not, God loves every single little pagan just as much as he loves you.

If you please, I would appreciate it if you stop blocking the discussion. I would like to discuss why or why not this could or could not be so. I think the moderators can handle. Thank you.

A question asked for the third time and ignored consistently by Abba. Did Mary appear to try to convert Socrates to the one true God? I suspect I’m not going to get an answer again. IN ALL MARION APPARITIONS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF MARY HAS BEEN TO BRING PEOPLE TO GOD. NOT TO TELL YOU WHEN YOU’RE GOING TO DIE. CASE CLOSED. THE REST IS TOTALLY AGAINST CATHOLIC TEACHING.

As I said, I’ve asked abba the question several times. No answer. Case closed. I’m a Catholic. Mary appears to bring people to God, not to tell me I’m going to have a hangnail.

 

[CWBetts]

CWBetts,

I am of the understanding that you may be under pressure to come up with original thoughts. That is too bad. It is not how true theology works. It is ludicrous to try and ponder to ‘discover’ something and sell books like hot cakes and get recognition. This is false theology. I don’t know who it was that said something like the best theologians work on their knees. Now, this is true. However, if you see something original you do not have to try to burn it and condemn the person. That is very sad. Is this jealousy or pride or both?

You are not really participating in the discussion. You are just trying to close it. CENSURED. Who are you, may I ask? I think the Pope is still in Rome. Praise be to God!

I am not attributing to Mary attributes that belong only to God. And, believe it or not, God loves every single little pagan just as much as he loves you.

If you please, I would appreciate it if you stop blocking the discussion. I would like to discuss why or why not this could or could not be so. I think the moderators can handle. Thank you.

I have told you REPEATEDLY why it cannot be so. THE BLESSED VIRGIN ONLY APPEARS TO BRING PEOPLE TO GOD! You had tried to assign the Blessed Virgin the quality of being eternal (outside of time) which belongs to God alone. She is everlasting, but not eternal.

 

[Abba]

A question asked for the third time and ignored consistently by Abba. Did Mary appear to try to convert Socrates to the one true God? I suspect I’m not going to get an answer again. IN ALL MARION APPARITIONS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF MARY HAS BEEN TO BRING PEOPLE TO GOD. NOT TO TELL YOU WHEN YOU’RE GOING TO DIE. CASE CLOSED. THE REST IS TOTALLY AGAINST CATHOLIC TEACHING.

As I said, I’ve asked abba the question several times. No answer. Case closed. I’m a Catholic. Mary appears to bring people to God, not to tell me I’m going to have a hangnail.

I will not dignify your rude post with a reply. If you are interested in the topic perhaps you can read the thread it may develop. That is if you and CWBetts do not succeed in what you are trying to do. Thank you.

 

[CWBetts]

I will not dignify your rude post with a reply. If you are interested in the topic perhaps you can read the thread. Thank you.

I see thee way it works now. If anyone espouses anything contrary to your heterodox fantasy you complain that they are “blocking the discussion” or being rude or whatever. Why can’t you handle the fact that the Blessed Mother did not appear to your pagan hero?

 

[cathdoki]

I will not dignify your rude post with a reply. If you are interested in the topic perhaps you can read the thread it may develop. That is if you and CWBetts do not succeed in what you are trying to do. Thank you.

we’ve only spoken the truth. I’m not sure what you’ve interpreted as being rude. We just don’t believe in things that counter the CC teaching.

If you find it rude that I keep asking if Mary told Socrates about the One True God, then that’s clearly your problem. You’ve refused to answer a true litmus test and then accuse me of being rude. CWBetts likewise. Answer the question instead of basin your answer on paganism.

 

[scottywolf777]

we’ve only spoken the truth. I’m not sure what you’ve interpreted as being rude. We just don’t believe in things that counter the CC teaching.

If you find it rude that I keep asking if Mary told Socrates about the One True God, then that’s clearly your problem. You’ve refused to answer a true litmus test and then accuse me of being rude. CWBetts likewise. Answer the question instead of basin your answer on paganism.

This is speculative theology at best regardless of one’s answer. The dialogue itself only mentions a woman in white and goes on to talk about some other interesting things which apparently nobody here cares about. Jumping the OP for not answering the question is a little like persecuting him for having the wrong answer to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

 

[CWBetts]

This is speculative theology at best regardless of one’s answer. The dialogue itself only mentions a woman in white and goes on to talk about some other interesting things which apparently nobody here cares about. Jumping the OP for not answering the question is a little like persecuting him for having the wrong answer to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Well the OP does keep insisting that the Blessed Virgin appeared to Socrates and gets angry anytime someone says that she didn’t.

 

[Mintaka]

Now, be fair. There were plenty of medievals who were willing to argue that Socrates was, if not a saint, certainly an example of a righteous pagan who had been given a good deal of grace by God. Erasmus even has a dialogue where one character says that when he reads about Socrates’ noble death, he can hardly keep from saying, “St. Socrates, ora pro nobis!”

(Of course, there are certain dialogues by Socrates that weren’t widely available, and others which weren’t understood the same way they were written. People mostly thought of Socrates as someone who died nobly, and who was responsible for Plato and Aristotle’s greatness.)

And of course Virgil, for his poetry’s Messianic tone, was widely given the status of a righteous pagan. Hence, Dante’s use of him.

As for time travel, I suspect that we’d have had a good many such legends from the medievals if they could have managed it. Certainly in art, there’s not any worry about separation of time periods. And of course you have plenty of legends like St. Brigid allegedly having served as babysitter to the Baby Jesus and gone to Egypt with the Holy Family, when everyone knew perfectly well that she was born several centuries after Jesus. Sometimes you think the Holy Family ran into half the obscure saints in Europe…

But that sort of thing is usually thematic. A good medieval legend about Socrates would probably name the woman in white and have her be somebody appropriate to Socrates, like St. Catherine of Alexandria or the king’s mother from Proverbs. Mary just showing up, I’m just not feeling it. Mary enthroned with baby Jesus in the position called “Seat of Wisdom”, warning Socrates to worship the One God, and you’ve got a nice legend going.

 

[cathdoki]

This is speculative theology at best regardless of one’s answer. The dialogue itself only mentions a woman in white and goes on to talk about some other interesting things which apparently nobody here cares about. Jumping the OP for not answering the question is a little like persecuting him for having the wrong answer to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

That’s not true. She insists that Mary appeared to Socrates for the only purpose of saying that he was going to die. Can you find just approved apparition where Mary’s message was anything other than bringing people to God? It’s a very simple question. Mary doesn’t appear for anything other than that.

 

[Mintaka]

Mary appeared to one of the popes to tell him to build the church of St. Mary Major where it snowed on August 5. (Thus her title “Our Lady of the Snows”, and the church’s nickname in Latin, Sanctae Mariae ad Nives.) That’s not just approved; it’s ancient.

But again, you’re being way too harsh, because the number of pious legends where Mary appears to do all sorts of things… well, how could you begin to count them? King Alfonso X of Spain commissioned an entire book of motets, all telling the story of one of these pious legends known to his own time in Spain, and that book has to have something like a hundred songs in it. And that one’s a drop in the bucket. There are thousands of pious legends about Mary, and there are a fairly good chunk of historical accounts of authentic visions and apparitions, too.

Of course there’s always some connection to God, but sometimes it’s a bit tenuous.

Personally, I’m fond of the one where, when a pious knight couldn’t tear himself away from Mass, Mary dressed up in his armor and won a tourney for him, and the moral of the story was that you’d never miss out on anything by going to church.

Telling people that their time has come is more an angel thing, though.

 

[bibleguy180]

Perhaps it was an angel?

 

[Mintaka]

Maybe…

Well, maybe we should file this one under Mysterious Stories of the Mysterious.