Did "wives submit to your husbands in everything" deter you from marriage?

[Andrea_Day]

Ladies, were you ever deterred from entering a courtship or marriage after hearing Saint Paul’s instructions to wives, requiring them to submit to their husbands in everything? Gentleman, were you ever deterred from courtship or marriage by your unwillingness to take on a dominating role and assume the authority to command your wife?

I feel like I’m the only one, but I suspect I’m not actually alone in this. If this is your experience, I would love to hear your story–did you remain unmarried or did something allow you to make peace with St. Paul’s blueprint for marriage? Thanks!

And just in anticipation of what you might be thinking, yes, I am aware God makes demands on the husband too, that they “love their wives as Christ loves the Church”, that St. Paul also commands “mutual submission” and that the husband’s authority is further defined in the encyclical Casti Connubii, paragraphs 26-29. Yet the same encyclical also reiterates St. Paul in saying husbands do have the authority to command their wives in some areas, and wives have the obligation to obey. Albeit, some husbands may graciously choose not to exercise this authority, and build marriages founded on far more equal and mutual terms, but one must ask whether it is wise or even sinful for us to purposefully reject the blueprint for marriage spelled out in His Word.

w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19301231_casti-connubii.html

 

[heidi_storage]

It wasn’t my experience, no. The marriages I saw in which the wife followed the husband’s lead seemed very happy and fulfilling, and I wanted that for myself.

 

[rymichael]

People always take this scripture out of context. It doesn’t mean that the wife does everything the man says. In marriage, it is a thing of mutual obedience. No one is superior to the other, they are both their key to heaven.

 

[MaryT777]

People always take this scripture out of context. It doesn’t mean that the wife does everything the man says. In marriage, it is a thing of mutual obedience. No one is superior to the other, they are both their key to heaven.

/QUOTE:thumbsup:

 

[TK421]

I’m not married and am occupied right now with quite a few other things, but I plan on getting married.

St Paul’s instructions to the Ephesians are disciplinary and not doctrinal, and neither is the linked encyclical by that very holy & hard-working Pope.

There is no doctrinal imperative for a woman to submit to her husband in all things, or for a man to take on a 100% dominating role. The only moral imperative about marriage is that a woman should care more about her husband and her children than herself and a man should care more about his wife and his children than himself, and they should love & sacrifice for each other and gradually fall deeper in love as they get older and help each other get to Heaven. A woman shouldn’t be disturbed or question that she is somehow less than her counterpart.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Ladies, were you ever deterred from entering a courtship or marriage after hearing Saint Paul’s instructions to wives, requiring them to submit to their husbands in everything? Gentleman, were you ever deterred from courtship or marriage by your unwillingness to take on a dominating role and assume the authority to command your wife?

No, because I don’t intend to marry a man who expects that of me.

 

[goodguy2342]

What is this you speak of? You do realize it is the new millenium? Women haven’t been this way since the 50’s

I’d love to introduce some of you to my wife…

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Does the Church submit herself to the self-sacrificing love of Christ? Of course! In the same way, wives are called to submit themselves to the self-sacrificing love of their husbands. Insofar as a husband fails in his calling to be a Christ-like icon of the love that Christ has for the Church (a mad love that drove him to embrace crucifixion and death), then a wife is not called to submit to her husband. But if a husband is loving his wife after the pattern that Christ loves the Church, then what wife would not want to submit? Such a love explicitly says, “I choose your good over my very own life”!

I once had a Scripture professor who wrote his dissertation on this very passage say that the husband has the much more difficult role here.

The reality is that marriage, for both the husband and the wife, is a calling to die to one’s own self-centeredness, selfishness, and disordered passions in order to become purified to love one’s spouse with God’s own agape-love. If either the potential-husband or potential-wife is unwilling to submit themselves to such purification, then they might want to re-consider their own intentions in even wanting to marry.

 

[tawny]

People always take this scripture out of context. It doesn’t mean that the wife does everything the man says. In marriage, it is a thing of mutual obedience. No one is superior to the other, they are both their key to heaven.

Well stated.

 

[Dorothy]

People always take this scripture out of context. It doesn’t mean that the wife does everything the man says. In marriage, it is a thing of mutual obedience. No one is superior to the other, they are both their key to heaven.

I totally agree!

 

[Dorothy]

Does the Church submit herself to the self-sacrificing love of Christ? Of course! In the same way, wives are called to submit themselves to the self-sacrificing love of their husbands. Insofar as a husband fails in his calling to be a Christ-like icon of the love that Christ has for the Church (a mad love that drove him to embrace crucifixion and death), then a wife is not called to submit to her husband. But if a husband is loving his wife after the pattern that Christ loves the Church, then what wife would not want to submit? Such a love explicitly says, “I choose your good over my very own life”!

I once had a Scripture professor who wrote his dissertation on this very passage say that the husband has the much more difficult role here.

The reality is that marriage, for both the husband and the wife, is a calling to die to one’s own self-centeredness, selfishness, and disordered passions in order to become purified to love one’s spouse with God’s own agape-love. If either the potential-husband or potential-wife is unwilling to submit themselves to such purification, then they might want to re-consider their own intentions in even wanting to marry.

Well said!

 

[Arizona_Fat_Gir]

Some girls get married to escape a domineering father. At least that is the case with those who still live at home. Does she allow her father to dominate her, or does she allow her husband to dominate her becomes such a decision. Sometimes the marriage works because she negotiates things with her bossy husband, but she could’t do so with her father, who was hot tempered and who drank a lot. Sometimes it’s a matter of choosing against two different unpleasant things. It is possible that difficulty is the glue that holds a marriage together. One woman I know would never leave her husband no matter what because she would then have to go back home and live with her parents! (That is one way of looking at things!) Of course I am not saying she would endure abuse, but the guy is like having a kid. He is just not able to take care of himself. He can’t cook or whatever.

I also know of a lady whose husband does NOT want her to get a dog. She wants a Yorkie, a cute, tiny dog that could be no problem. But he says “NO”. I think in case where a husband does not want a family pet, it is better to respect his wishes because a pet would not be welcome in that environment.

He did “allow” her to buy a Mercedes!

 

[angell1]

Ladies, were you ever deterred from entering a courtship or marriage after hearing Saint Paul’s instructions to wives, requiring them to submit to their husbands in everything? Gentleman, were you ever deterred from courtship or marriage by your unwillingness to take on a dominating role and assume the authority to command your wife?

I feel like I’m the only one, but I suspect I’m not actually alone in this. If this is your experience, I would love to hear your story–did you remain unmarried or did something allow you to make peace with St. Paul’s blueprint for marriage? Thanks!

And just in anticipation of what you might be thinking, yes, I am aware God makes demands on the husband too, that they “love their wives as Christ loves the Church”, that St. Paul also commands “mutual submission” and that the husband’s authority is further defined in the encyclical Casti Connubii, paragraphs 26-29. Yet the same encyclical also reiterates St. Paul in saying husbands do have the authority to command their wives in some areas, and wives have the obligation to obey. Albeit, some husbands may graciously choose not to exercise this authority, and build marriages founded on far more equal and mutual terms, but one must ask whether it is wise or even sinful for us to purposefully reject the blueprint for marriage spelled out in His Word.

w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19301231_casti-connubii.html

well, if the wife is doing something that is ruining or harming the family, I would certainly think that the husband hast the authority to say something. and vice versa.

even if the husband is technically the leader, a good leader isn’t a dictator. someone who truly wants to be a good leader would consult with the people he is in charge of to get their (name removed by moderator)ut and feedback.

 

[AnnArbor]

No. Like St. Paul’s exhortation to slaves to obey their masters, this is outdated. Most couple I know recognize that the husband and wife are partners – equal in authority in all things temporal and spiritual.

 

[TK421]

No. Like St. Paul’s exhortation to slaves to obey their masters, this is outdated. Most couple I know recognize that the husband and wife are partners – equal in authority in all things temporal and spiritual.

Yeah. Except that the morality behind “slaves, obey your masters” is eternal, even if the circumstances have changed. The most common form of employment for commoners in the ancient Mediterranean world was to sign yourself as a slave to a household in exchange for living quarters & protection, performing different trades and repaying your debt over time. After X period you would either purchase freedom or (more often) simply stay in the household. So, charity demanded (and demands) that you obey your master and don’t do anything behind their back. We can similarly apply those instructions in the contemporary work environment.

St Paul’s teaching isn’t entirely “outdated” because although the passage is disciplinary instruction to the Ephesians and not a doctrine, we see the morality behind it is to love & be faithful. So, women have acquired better position in society than they had in the ancient world, but marriage remains a perpetual act of self-sacrifice between the spouses. That is: the Church is absolutely not in agreement with the shallow, dispassionate tendency among the secular liberal world to treat it like a business contract, and asserts that this has caused grievous harm to the world and especially to children. St Francis de Sales went as far as to call marriage the most austere of all the sacraments. Women should treat their husbands as Christ, but men should do the same. Anything less and we not obeying the Gospel and being what Jesus has called us to be, and marriage in its dignity is striped & reduced to a utilitarian commodity.

Hopefully what I have said makes sense & has been helpful. Disciplinary instructions aren’t binding but there are principles from them that we can still learn from.

 

[Rau]

…I also know of a lady whose husband does NOT want her to get a dog. She wants a Yorkie, a cute, tiny dog that could be no problem. But he says “NO”. I think in case where a husband does not want a family pet, it is better to respect his wishes because a pet would not be welcome in that environment!

Consider the converse: Would a husband who deeply loved his wife acquire a Yorkie if that would upset his wife?

 

[Rau]

…St Paul’s instructions to the Ephesians are disciplinary and not doctrinal, and neither is the linked encyclical by that very holy & hard-working Pope. .

Why do you say these things are specific to time and place (disciplinary) and not intended to have wider application?

 

[heidi_storage]

People always take this scripture out of context. It doesn’t mean that the wife does everything the man says. In marriage, it is a thing of mutual obedience. No one is superior to the other, they are both their key to heaven.

So, “tak[ing] this scripture out of context” means “believing and following this scripture”?

 

[Lea101]

I always felt that the passage was so outdated. I thought that Paul was just trying to make sure wives were treated properly without starting a whole feminist revolution because if he did, Christianity would be stopped before it even started. Same with slavery.

But then again, he literally went on and on about the church and the bridegroom so he did sound serious, lol. So maybe submission is still there, but it is different now. For example, a wife was probably meant to be more submissive then. But in this society, women have a lot more to offer to the family (thanks to education, for example, she can help with finances.

Anyway, it is clear that the wives are still below the husbands. I don’t get why people keep trying to sugarcoat it. Yes, this doesn’t mean that he gets to boss her around, but there is still a hierarchy. It’s not 50-50.

It did deter me from marriage. I’m practically a fetus though, so it’s not like my dating life was affected or anything. However, it’s unlikely that I’ll date a misogynistic guy so why would I be worried about marrying one. The guy I’ll probably marry, given the type of guys around me, is probably one with an “egalitarian” mindset, so the actual likelihood of me marrying one that would insist he is the head is low. If I married a guy like that…maybe I wouldn’t mind submitting, whatever that means. I don’t know how I am going to be like in the future.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

There are many Christians who take “wives, submit to your husbands” quite seriously. You only have to watch reality shows to see how this works. The Duggars and their communities of faithful are good examples. Charismatics, from my experience, are quite keen on the hierarchy of the family, as are people in the LDS church. The Amish… Opus Dei…

You know, it’s easy to explain that we live in modern times and that’s just not how the family works anymore, but if you argue that, you are discounting the words of the Bible. That’s being very cafeteria-like, isn’t it?