Did your view on Hell Change?

[JohnDom]

There is no fear in God. Fear of the Lord is the collective personality trying to create doubt in the spotless and impeccable nature of God’s love. Not the tiniest fraction of fear can survive in God’s presence. This is what being born pure a virgin refers to. It’s symbolism for the soul.

 

[JohnDom]

I think the question is straightforward. Where does self-worth come from? Also the literal version interprets Jesus to be God. God is infinite. Then why is not the body of Jesus literally infinite as well?

 

[Greenfields]

'Did your view on Hell change?"
Nope

 

[JohnDom]

The idea that we could ever be separate is made possible because we have a belief in a God that’s less than infinite. How can one ever be separate from that which is infinite? If we buy into this then perhaps we don’t see the enemy secretly getting us to agree on an unconscious level into diminishing the infinite nature of God. The devil devalues.

I am not saying there aren’t any good reasons for fear. I’m saying fear does not come from God.

That is one out of several ways to interpret the statement in the book of John. But if that perfect love is outside of us in Jesus then it sends a message that there is no perfect love within us. But God is perfect love as well and God is infinite so that means perfect love must be inside of us too, no? Also God’s love is unconditional while the love of ego depends on events in time, circumstances to be met, beliefs, Jesus dying in the cross, the conditions go on and on.

I’ve found the perfect justice of God to be equivalent to non-judgment. Remember judgment is the downfall of mankind. This is the lesson from the Garden if Eden that we tend to miss. We are the ones that are biting the forbidden fruit and we don’t know when to quit. Adam and Eve bit the fruit once and passed that tendency down to us. We’ve been biting it since the beginning of time yet we haven’t learned when to put the fruit down. The tool of judgment uses us instead of us using it. We think we can judge everything. John 5:22 shows God doesn’t judge but man doesn’t seem to think it’s a problem. If the Father doesn’t judge and the Father and Son are one then what does that tell us? Some Catholics say there is more than one kind of judgment but that still negates the verse. It says the Father judges no one. It doesn’t distinguish which kind of judgment. If it refers to only one kind of judgment then it still means God has judged. I understand this to be a man-made attempt to explain and rationalize away an inconsistency. I refuse to pretend otherwise and ignore it for the sake of my belief system just because I’d rather not take the time and effort to find the answers for myself.

 

[Gorgias]

I think the question is straightforward. Where does self-worth come from?

From a spiritual perspective, there is no such thing as ‘self-worth’. Rather, there’s the worth that proceeds from the fact that we are children of God.

Also the literal version interprets Jesus to be God. God is infinite. Then why is not the body of Jesus literally infinite as well?

Is the body of Jesus human? Are human bodies infinite?

You’re forgetting that Jesus is True God and True Man. He has a ‘divine nature’ and a ‘human nature’. In his human nature, Jesus is not infinite – he’s human. In his divine nature, Jesus is infinite, just as God is.

 

[De_Maria]

I use to be Catholic too but now I think the teaching of hell is man-made. What room is there in an all-loving God for hell? God is nothing but the purest of love, benevolence, kindness. Hell is adopted from the collective personality and we’ve been conditioned to fear it. That fear does not come from God because there is no fear in God. Where else could the fear be coming from then?

Have you ever heard these words from Scripture?

Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Have you ever had this happen to you in real life? Have you treated someone badly and they returned your bad behaviour with kindness? And have you felt like crawling into a hole, afterward?

I know it’s happened to me. Now, you said yourself that God is nothing but the purest of love, benevolence, kindness. Suppose that a person has spent all his life committing sin and refusing to acknowledge God’s existence. Suppose this person does all he can to please only himself at the expense of others and in so doing, insults God. Suppose that this person refuses to acknowledge the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made for his salvation?

Now, when he dies, the invisible God becomes visible. And He is everywhere. But He is still loving and kind. And you can’t change what you can’t run away from Him. You can’t hide.

Our God is consuming Fire.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

getting us to agree on an unconscious level into diminishing the infinite nature of God. The devil devalues.

If you believe in the devil, then where would you say he is located, as he is not part of heaven ?

I’m saying fear does not come from God.

What do you say about the virtue given to us at the sacrament of Chrism by the Holy Spirit called Fear of the lord ?

Also, just because something is infinite it doesn’t follow that all things are part of it, unless you are to say there is this absolute space which there is nothing outside of. But even then we have different atributes than God. If you are going to throw away the church teaching of hell because of that passage, then by the same logic you would need to throw away original sin, and practically free will with that.

. I refuse to pretend otherwise and ignore it for the sake of my belief system just because I’d rather not take the time and effort to find the answers for myself.

Then why are you posting on this is as a thread if you are not seeking for answers ?
Not being open to an idea that has good evidence, and that the Church teaches is not meant to be intepreted metaphorically is not rational. How much faith do you put in God then ? If hell had a potential to be a metaphorical place people could just say that about everything, including Jesus being a metaphor. We observe text by literally genre and the context, and don’t declare dogmas by a single verse.
I have done my part, its up to you to decide since it seems you won’t budge.

 

[JohnDom]

So you actually think there’s no such thing as self-worth? Do you suppose God would want us to agree with that? Would you want your own children to grow up without any self-worth? Perhaps this is the unconscious reason why there are so many problems in the world. Perhaps this is the reason why the enemy has such a foothold on humanity. We have a society where people are ignorant of their own value. How can we love ourselves if we don’t know our own value? How can we love others if we don’t love ourselves?

That’s one way to see it but I think we are missing the point. The point is we are one with God because of the soul. We miss this because we are so focused on something outside ourselves that we are distracted from going inside ourselves to find the treasure of divinity within. This guarantees we will not experience the Kingdom while we are alive. The enemy is really good at what it does. Remember, this is a God of the living, not the dead.

 

[Gorgias]

So you actually think there’s no such thing as self-worth? Do you suppose God would want us to agree with that? Would you want your own children to grow up without any self-worth?

Depends on what you mean by “self-worth”.

Do you mean a feeling of being worthwhile as a person? Of having confidence in one’s self?

Absolutely those are good things. We’re just disagreeing on what it is that provides that feeling. If it’s purely personal pride, then that’s a bad thing. If it proceeds from God, and from one’s recognition that God loves us and that He values us, then it’s a good thing.

We have a society where people are ignorant of their own value. How can we love ourselves if we don’t know our own value? How can we love others if we don’t love ourselves?

Our value proceeds from our identity as children of God. I agree that’s important. (It’s also very tangential to the discussion in this thread. )

 

[JohnDom]

Wait a minute. Self-worth that depends on something outside us is not self-worth. By definition self-worth comes from within. By self-worth I am referring to our inherent, intrinsic value. Sure some people are proud, arrogant and lustful for the grandiose, narcissistic feeling of self-importance but that is actually a symptom of lack of self-worth for they are unconsciously trying to compensate for not feeling good enough.

True self-worth is unconditional. False self-worth depends on what we say and do, living to the standards of being a good Christian, believing in Jesus, going to church, being baptized, taking communion, etc.

I mainly brought up self-worth as an example to show the literal interpretation of the Bible is not entirely accurate so we must take this notion of hell with a grain of salt. Peace.

 

[Gorgias]

Wait a minute. Self-worth that depends on something outside us is not self-worth. By definition self-worth comes from within. By self-worth I am referring to our inherent, intrinsic value.

OK. Our “inherent, intrinsic value” comes from our identity as children of God, created by God for beatitude and eternal life with God.

If you have a problem with that – because it proceeds from God and not from “within” – then what you’re talking about is really a form of narcissism, and not ‘self-worth’.

 

[JohnDom]

Of course he did. But what about our interpretation of hell and our interpretation of the scripture? Isn’t there more than one way to see it and who is to say that one is wrong and one is right? What if there were more than one way to see it? If two people are painting a bowl of fruit and they are standing on opposite sides then who’s is “right”?

 

[JohnDom]

Wow. Maybe we’ve gotten so used to living without self-worth that the effects have become “normal”. I’m here to say they are not. Yes, Jesus will heal you but it’s not literal. It is the soul that heals us. It is salvation, heaven, God. Without it we will continue to look outside ourselves for fulfillment which is exactly the way the enemy prefers it because we will never question it. Its greatest weapon is secrecy. It doesn’t want us to know it’s in the background of our lives controlling us with fear because blowing it’s cover will diminish its power. This enemy is a part of us known as the personality but it’s not an enemy that needs to be defeated. Many are too proud to realize they have inadvertently been siding with this enemy. Notice how it keeps us stuck in time waiting for salvation when God is timelessness. How can we find that which is timeless in time? Once the enemy is exposed for the fraud that it is it will lose its power. Let’s not get condemn ourselves to not being able to feel our own pricelessness while we are alive. This is not the will of God but of the enemy.

 

[Gorgias]

But what about our interpretation of hell and our interpretation of the scripture? Isn’t there more than one way to see it and who is to say that one is wrong and one is right?

Jesus gave that authority to the Church, not to individuals.

What if there were more than one way to see it?

Then we’d go with the Church’s interpretation, because – by the authority that Jesus gave (see Mt 16) – the Church is the authoritative interpreter of Jesus’ Gospel.

If two people are painting a bowl of fruit and they are standing on opposite sides then who’s is “right”?

The one whose interpretation coincides with the Church’s…

 

[stpurl]

It is strange, isn’t it? Apparently we don’t need to be saved from hell. Apparently, we ‘deserve’ heaven. It’s so far from Christian concepts that it’s scary. Back in the dinosaur days when I was young and we learned the virtues, we learned their concomitant vices as well. Pride, that vice, has disguised itself as ‘self worth’ and person speaking of the virtue of humility is seen as some ignoramus who is so lacking in self-awareness that he can’t ‘see’ the truth of humanity the source and summit of life. . .unless, of course, that person is one of the ‘deplorables’ who really IS worthless. . .

 

[StephieNorthCo]

Hey. Proud to be a worthless deplorable. Hmmm, ooops. I guess I shouldn’t say I’m proud, should i.

Guess I AM a worthless deplorable.

Akkkk. I can’t say I am, can i?

Where’s that confessional?

One of my high school religion teachers said it best. Trying to remember a quote from 53 or so years ago…"there’s really no difference in the way people view Hell. They just say it different. One will say ‘There ain’t a hell’ and another will say, ‘The Hell there aint.’ "

 

[Operations66]

People don’t believe in hell because they don’t want to believe in it. “God wouldn’t do that”, etc.

Sorry, but we don’t get to decide what is the nature of God and what He will or won’t do. He Is what He Is. He does what we does. Some of it is beyond our feeble human minds to comprehend.

Jesus in the Gospels tells us that hell exists. Mary in her many appearances in apparitions tells us that hell exists.

So if we are Christians (Catholics), we must believe in hell. You can choose not to believe in hell because you don’t like the idea (even though you have no authority to decide), but then do not call yourself a Christian.

 

[JohnDom]

I hate to break it to you but the interpretation of the scriptures comes from men not from God. Why do we suppose there are so many different denominations in the world? The Catholic Church’s interpretation is one of many. They all believe they have the one and only true interpretation according to thier own opinions. And just because the church has the authority to interpret does not negate the fact that we can choose to find out a more accurate interpretation for ourselves. Remember Galileo or when the earth was flat? The church is not infallible.

I think people feel threatened when their own interpretation comes into question. Notice the intensity with which one has to grab and hold onto it. This comes from lack of self worth. If they were to let go they would be made to feel the inner emptiness that dwells inside and they judge this feeling as worthless because they don’t know when to quit biting of the forbidden fruit of judgment. The personality tempts them by saying surely you will not die if you bite the fruit once more. But remember he who tries to save their life will lose it and vice versa.

Understand facing the inner emptiness marks the beginning of the passage to the soul. Notice how desperately the personality avoids this at all costs. It doesn’t want to turn and face what is infinite and eternal.

 

[Gorgias]

I hate to break it to you but the interpretation of the scriptures comes from men not from God.

I hate to break it to you, but if there are differing interpretations, then some are correct and others are in error. How might one decide whether he’s being led into error?

Why do we suppose there are so many different denominations in the world?

Because there are so many people who want to follow the Gospel of Self, and so few who want to follow the Gospel of Christ.

The Catholic Church’s interpretation is one of many.

Agreed.

BTW… how many ‘denominations’ were first led by men who were Christ’s apostles? Who heard him preach? Who were commanded by him to teach all he taught them? Who were promised that “what [they] loose on earth will be loosed in heaven, and what [they] bind on earth will be bound in heaven”? Oh, yeah, that’s right… That would be the Catholic Church.

They all believe they have the one and only true interpretation according to thier own opinions.

Agreed. However, the fact that they believe it, doesn’t make it so.

 

[JohnDom]

I think we have to find out for ourselves but few are willing to take it far enough.

It depends on which self we are talking about. The false self of the ego or the true self of the soul?

Oh yeah, which doctrine of the Catholic Church is going to make up for the loss of our infinite worth and eternal value which is our birthright? Trading one’s Catholic identity for the true identity of the priceless soul because we love the approval of men more than the approval of God is like throwing our own self-worth in the trash because we’re proud of the personality. We’d rather have a replacement like Barrabas. Maybe we’re the ones chanting to crucify him. The personality is like a bad back-up quarterback. What profits a man if he gain the whole world yet forfeits his own soul in the process? Nothing wrong with being Catholic of course but it is not our ultimate identity. Our ultimate identity is the soul. God made us in His image: infinite and eternal. Why then has a group of men come together and decided to make a god unto their own image of a man instead?

It cuts both ways.