Dietary laws

[Cristian_B]

Hello,

Probably there are other threads like this one but I don’t like reviving old threads.

So, my question is: what do you believe? Are Christians today supposed to follow the dietary laws written in Leviticus 11 or not?

Please, along with your answer, post your reasons/arguments as well.

My intention is primarily to debate about it, and I hope we can disagree peacefully.

 

[NHInsider]

My "no’ vote is based on the authority of the Church. At the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) the Church determined that Jewish dietary laws were not to be imposed upon non-Jewish converts (except for the prohibition on consuming blood).

 

[Cristian_B]

My "no’ vote is based on the authority of the Church. At the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) the Church determined that Jewish dietary laws were not to be imposed upon non-Jewish converts (except for the prohibition on consuming blood).

Okay, I will not debate the authority of the Catholic Church.

But I ask: why? Is there Scriptural evidence for it?

I was originally thinking to make this a thread about what is written in the Bible about the dietary laws. I am grateful for your opinion, but could you also post scriptural evidence for this claim? Thank you.

 

[Angelic_Rose]

I voted no because of the following information…
St. Matthew 15:17-18: Do you not realize that everything that enters the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled into the latrine? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile.

Acts 15:19-21: It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God, but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals, and blood. For Moses, for generations now, has had those who proclaim him in every town, as he has been read in the synagogues every sabbath.

In general, most of the Old Covenant’s dietary laws were done away with— though it was recommended that Christian believers, particularly those who came into the faith as a Gentile avoid “meat of strangled animals and blood”. I would assume that Jewish people who became believers in Christ would still want to stick to their dietary laws.

Just as we see some differences in culture as we attend different parishes, I believe its the same with what we might eat or not eat.

 

[NHInsider]

Okay, I will not debate the authority of the Catholic Church.

But I ask: why? Is there Scriptural evidence for it?

I was originally thinking to make this a thread about what is written in the Bible about the dietary laws. I am grateful for your opinion, but could you also post scriptural evidence for this claim? Thank you.

Acts 15:1-20:

Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question. They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.

When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, as well as by the apostles and the presbyters, and they reported what God had done with them. But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law.”

The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter.

After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts. Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.” The whole assembly fell silent, and they listened while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them.

After they had fallen silent, James responded, "My brothers, listen to me. Symeon has described how God first concerned himself with acquiring from among the Gentiles a people for his name. The words of the prophets agree with this, as is written: ‘After this I shall return and rebuild the fallen hut of David; from its ruins I shall rebuild it and raise it up again, so that the rest of humanity may seek out the Lord, even all the Gentiles on whom my name is invoked. Thus says the Lord who accomplishes these things, known from of old.’

It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God,
but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals, and blood.

 

[Cristian_B]

I voted no because of the following information…

I am happy that you took your time to answer. Thank you!

St. Matthew 15:17-18: Do you not realize that everything that enters the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled into the latrine? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile.

This is a very interesting verse, isn’t it? I pray that God will open our eyes. After reading it, we see that His disciples came and asked Him about the parable or teaching. Then He said:
So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding?
…
These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

~Matthew 15:16,20 NKJV* (*New King James Version)
Now I’ll quote Mark as well because he gives us a little more information: For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.

~Mark 7:3-4 NKJV (bold mine)
Here Mark gives us more detail about what they did. The washing of hands before eating, etc. were traditions of the elders that they kept. There were no specific commandments in the Law that told them that they had to wash before eating, so these were traditions.

Also, going back to what Jesus said, pay attention to His words: These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man. (Matthew 15:20 NKJV, bold part and italics mine) Jesus was not referring to the clean and unclean animals, but to the eating with unwashed hands. As you read in Mark, those were traditions of the elders and they weren’t a law.

Also, note the disciples’ question:* “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?* (Matthew 15:12 NKJV italics mine) They were simply offended. They didn’t want to stone Him then because there was no Law against what He said. They were keeping traditions that were not found in the law (necessity of washing your hands before eating), so they had no reason to stone or kill Him. But if He would have told them they could eat unclean animals, they would have stoned Him because it would have been against the Law. So Jesus wasn’t referring to clean and unclean animals, but to the tradition of washing hands before eating.

(Edited as inappropriate and unnecessary)

Also, keep in mind that there is no direct commandment against cannibalism in the Bible, except the dietary laws. Because it is written: These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth… (Leviticus 11:2) Ask any biologist or scientist and (s)he will tell you that you are an animal, a more advanced animal that can think, but you are an animal. We are not fish or birds, but animals that are on earth. Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. (Leviticus 11:3) We are animals, but we fill neither of the requirements. We don’t ‘divide the hoof’, we don’t ‘have cloven hooves’ and we don’t ‘chew the cud’. Therefore, the only reason we cannot eat humans is because we do not fulfill these requirements presented in the dietary law. If Jesus abolished the dietary laws that means we can actually eat humans as long as we pray over the human flesh. Is this what Jesus is teaching? God forbid.

Acts 15:19-21

And what does this mean? That we can eat basically whatever we please as long as we pray over it and like it? I hope not.

In general, most of the Old Covenant’s dietary laws were done away with—

My question is why were the abolished, where and when? Also: when were they created and what was their purpose?

though it was recommended that Christian believers, particularly those who came into the faith as a Gentile avoid “meat of strangled animals and blood”.

I would say ‘commanded’ rather than ‘recommended’. But at least you agree that they are good.

God said to eat clean animals to be holy, because He is holy. If we eat unclean animals it obviously means that we become unholy.

I would assume that Jewish people who became believers in Christ would still want to stick to their dietary laws.

I see nothing wrong with them, personally.

Just as we see some differences in culture as we attend different parishes, I believe its the same with what we might eat or not eat.

I believe that it is relevant, because we are what we eat. God created us and He knows with what we work better. God knows better and He chose with what food we are going to feed. Do you agree? Do you believe mere humans know better what’s good for our body or is it that the Creator of the body knows best? I hope we agree that the Creator knows best.

 

[Cristian_B]

Acts 15:1-20:

The problem is that the dietary laws were not created at mount Sinai, but they were given long before that. So when he is talking about the law and circumcision, the dietary laws are not included because they were not created at the same time with the Law of Moses, so he wasn’t talking about that.

 

[Angelic_Rose]

You seem to have an opinion already set about the the dietary laws— as I can see with your vote in your own poll. You asked for information, we provided it.

The Jewish beliefs were focused on the body staying ritually clean-- hence all the laws were focused on the body staying clean, so the spirit could stay clean. The Jewish people failed miserably under the Old Covenant and our Jesus came to establish a New Covenant that would allow us to once and for all be spiritually cleansed, regardless of our how clean or unclean our bodies are.

Our bodies perish but our souls are eternal— it just makes sense to not worry so much about our bodies and what we eat, what we wear, etc. (I’m saying this through a spiritual stand-point, not that I would go and abuse my body, the Spirit’s temple) Jesus focused on keeping our souls cleaned, the Church keeps a focus on that as well. We still continue to fast and abstain from certain foods— particularly on Fridays during Lent. That is to keep our minds spiritually focused on God.

 

[Angelic_Rose]

The problem is that the dietary laws were not created at mount Sinai, but they were given long before that. So when he is talking about the law and circumcision, the dietary laws are not included because they were not created at the same time with the Law of Moses, so he wasn’t talking about that.

All the Laws fall under the Old Covenant.

 

[Cristian_B]

You seem to have an opinion already set about the the dietary laws—

I want to make a debate. What kind of a debate would it be if I wouldn’t know what side I’m on?

as I can see with your vote in your own poll. You asked for information, we provided it.

Of course, but we can disagree, can’t we?

The Jewish beliefs were focused on the body staying ritually clean-- hence all the laws were focused on the body staying clean, so the spirit could stay clean. The Jewish people failed miserably under the Old Covenant and our Jesus came to establish a New Covenant that would allow us to once and for all be spiritually cleansed, regardless of our how clean or unclean our bodies are.

I disagree. I believe that if you have your whole body infested with drugs your mind is not going to be very ‘clean’.

Our bodies perish but our souls are eternal—

Souls can die, but let’s focus on the dietary laws.

it just makes sense to not worry so much about our bodies and what we eat, what we wear, etc.

This is such a terrible mistake. Trough what does God speak to you? Trough your brain. The brain is physical, and it must be taken care of.

(I’m saying this through a spiritual stand-point, not that I would go and abuse my body, the Spirit’s temple)

You just made a point. You can’t do whatever you wish with your body, because your body is the Temple of God. The Temple is His house, not yours. How can you defile His temple? It’s not your body, but His. Also, it’s His car, not yours. Can you put anything you want in the gas tank? I hope not.

Jesus focused on keeping our souls cleaned, the Church keeps a focus on that as well.

Actually, Jesus focused on keeping the body well as well. He healed a lot of people of their sickness. Jesus cleaned their bodies of sickness. I believe the least we can do is remove the cause of the sickness, which a lot of times is bad food.

And you still haven’t told me if we are allowed to practice cannibalism or to eat balut.

We still continue to fast and abstain from certain foods— particularly on Fridays during Lent. That is to keep our minds spiritually focused on God.

So shouldn’t we always focus on God?

 

[Cristian_B]

All the Laws fall under the Old Covenant.

I disagree. How can you say such thing?

And where did you get this idea? Do you have proof that all the laws fall under the Old Covenant?

 

[Robbinson]

I disagree. How can you say such thing?

And where did you get this idea? Do you have proof that all the laws fall under the Old Covenant?

The mosaic law was given to the Jews on Mt Sinai - there is no suggestion in scripture that the mosaic law was given prior to that time, though I believe (and Catholic teaching is) that the moral law (10 commandments) was a form of natural law from the beginning.

As to the dietary laws (a subset of the mosaic law), note that first we were vegetarians (garden of eden), then after the fall, were given all animals to eat, then as part of the mosaic law, told to eat only clean animals, then in the NT, all animals were made “clean”: . . .

Some interesting scriptural verses are below:

Romans 7:4-6 (“So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”)

Romans 10:4 (“Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.”);

Galations 3:19 (“What then was the purpose of the law? It was added because of the transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come”);

Galations 3:23-4:7 (the law was a tudor - having coming to faith, we are no longer in need of the tudor (paraphrase of the many verses);

Hebrews 7:11-19 (showing that the law of moses was the basis of the Levitcal priesthood - but Yeshua is now our high priest, superceding the priestly duties of the Aaron and his descendants under the Mosaic law);

Ephesians 2:14-15 (discussing the law as a dividing law betwen gentiles and Jews - whcih is no longer necessary as we are united in Yeshua).

Col 2:13-17 (“When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.”)

Jeremiah 31:31-32 (The time is coming," declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.)

1 Cor 9:20 (“To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.”)

Notice how Paul said that to the Jews he became “like one under the law” and then notice the next phrase “though I myself am not under the law”. Then read a little further and see how he says that to those not having the law, he becomes like them “though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law”. Its interesting/significant that Paul makes an apparent distinction between the “law” of the Jews that he is not under (the Torah) and the law of God/Christ that he is under! This is very revealing both as to explain some of his behavior (as though he was under the Law with the Jews) and yet further highlights the distinction between the “Law” before Yeshua and the law after Yeshua

Finally - Matthew 5:17 (often cited for the proposition that the Law continues in combination with John 19:30 making it clear that the Law is no longer applicable and yet consistent with Mathew 5:17)

Matthew 5:17 (“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished”) - note the phrase “until everything is accomplished”)

John 19:30 ("When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. “) - note the phrase " it is finished”.

In other words, the Law continued during Jesus’ ministry up and until his crucification and sacrafice for our sins - at which point the it was finished (all was fulfilled) and the “new covenant” fortold in Jeremiah 31:31-34 began - which was expressly not to be like the Mosaic covenant per those verses. Then the other above cited NT verses reiterate what the purpose of the law “had been” and how we are free from the law.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Cristian_B]

I’m happy you took your time to answer.

The mosaic law was given to the Jews on Mt Sinai - there is no suggestion in scripture that the mosaic law was given prior to that time, though I believe (and Catholic teaching is) that the moral law (10 commandments) was a form of natural law from the beginning.

Yes but: was the dietary law part of the Mosaic law?

As to the dietary laws (a subset of the mosaic law), note that first we were vegetarians (garden of eden), then after the fall, were given all animals to eat, then as part of the mosaic law, told to eat only clean animals, then in the NT, all animals were made “clean”: . . .

The last part is not true. In the beginning they were vegetarians. Then God let them eat animals that were clean. The dietary laws weren’t invented at mount Sinai.

Proof? Abraham had two sons: Ismael and Isaac. The descendants of Isaac are the Jews and the descendants of Ismael are the Muslims. The Jews don’t eat unclean animals and the Muslims neither. How can this be if the dietary laws were given to the Jews only?

Well, they got their ideas from their fathers. The Muslims from Ismael and the Jews from Isaac and Israel. These two got their teachings on the dietary laws from Abraham, and he from his father and so on. This can go up to Noah because it is written:
Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.

~Genesis 7:2-3
Here God made a distinction between clean (livestock) and unclean creatures (wild animals and those that move along the ground). Also, God makes a distinction at the creation between the wild animals (unclean animals) and the livestock (clean animals). Why didn’t He just simply say animals? Because there is a distinction: there are clean and unclean animals. Also, only clean animals were sacrificed. Jesus is clean because He never sinned. So as long as sacrifices existed (from the beginning of the world) there was a distinction between clean and unclean animals. The unclean were to be left alone and the clean to be sacrificed or to be eaten (after the flood). Also, if Noah ate unclean animals, how is it that we still have unclean animals today? Because there was only one pair of each, while on the other hand there were seven pairs of clean animals: some to be eaten and some to be sacrificed.

Some interesting scriptural verses are below:

Romans 7:4-6

Romans 10:4

Galations 3:19

Galations 3:23-4:7

Hebrews 7:11-19

Ephesians 2:14-15

Col 2:13-17

Jeremiah 31:31-32

1 Cor 9:20

Brother, as I have shown you, the dietary laws existed long before the Law of Moses was given at the mount Sinai. And what is wrong with the dietary laws anyways?

Also, read this interesting passage:And they tested God in their heart by asking for the food of their fancy.

~Psalm 78:18
Can we also eat whatever we lust or fancy?

Notice how Paul said that to the Jews he became “like one under the law” and then notice the next phrase “though I myself am not under the law”. Then read a little further and see how he says that to those not having the law, he becomes like them “though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law”. Its interesting/significant that Paul makes an apparent distinction between the “law” of the Jews that he is not under (the Torah) and the law of God/Christ that he is under! This is very revealing both as to explain some of his behavior (as though he was under the Law with the Jews) and yet further highlights the distinction between the “Law” before Yeshua and the law after Yeshua

This happened because it was fulfilled. I understand how the sacrifices were fulfilled. Fulfilled also means kept. So we keep the law about sacrifices by sacrificing Christ; this is what fulfilling means: keeping.

But how are we fulfilling dietary laws in Christ? Do we ever have to stop taking care of our body?

Finally - Matthew 5:17 (often cited for the proposition that the Law continues in combination with John 19:30 making it clear that the Law is no longer applicable and yet consistent with Mathew 5:17)

Matthew 5:17 (…) - note the phrase “until everything is accomplished”)

That is at the end, when every word will fulfill.

John 19:30 ("When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. “) - note the phrase " it is finished”.

In other words, the Law continued during Jesus’ ministry up and until his crucification and sacrafice for our sins - at which point the it was finished (all was fulfilled) and the “new covenant” fortold in Jeremiah 31:31-34 began - which was expressly not to be like the Mosaic covenant per those verses. Then the other above cited NT verses reiterate what the purpose of the law “had been” and how we are free from the law.

Blessings,

Brian

The Law is not finished but fulfilled.

When He said ‘it is finished’ He was referring to His task on earth.

Do you think this makes any sense? “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to end or do away them.” Obviously, fulfilling doesn’t mean ‘done away with’.

No, the New Testament does not name all the animals clean. Can you show me please Scriptures?

So to make a summary: how are the dietary laws supposed to be fulfilled in Christ?

 

[Todd_Easton]

No.

Thus he declared all foods clean. (Mark 7:18b)

 

[Mailman]

No.

Thus he declared all foods clean. (Mark 7:18b)

That is not in the Bible [not Scripture]. It is not in the original Greek.

 

[Pug]

If a person wishes to honor God by not shedding blood for food, or by only eating animals that have their throat slit with an exceedingly sharp knife, or by avoiding pork and shellfish, or by separating milk and meat, or by keeping utensils free from certain products/contacts, this is fine.

To answer your question, yes, a gentile can eat, say, camel for food, or drink camel milk. For those reading along who are not aware, a camel does not have a split hoof and so is not kosher. I will mention Noah, and Gen 9:1-3. All four categories of creatures came then to dread man, and be afraid, since all were given to Noah and his descendants for food.

 

[Bishop93]

I believe everybody should keep the Laws of Kashrut regardless of religion.

…If anything abstain from filthy pork.

While I don’t keep a kosher kitchen,I try my best to avoid pork.

It’s unhealthy and filthy…And it runs my BP up.

 

[Cristian_B]

No.

Thus he declared all foods clean. (Mark 7:18b)

Let me explain.

biblos.com/mark/7-19.htm

ὅτι οὐκ εἰσπορεύεται αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν καρδίαν ἀλλ’ εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν καὶ εἰς τὸν ἀφεδρῶνα ἐκπορεύεται. καθαρίζων πάντα τὰ βρώματα;

Those who wrote that version interpreted that passage. What Jesus is saying is that then the food is thrown outside making the body clean because those are feces, and aren’t good for the body. So the feces are thrown out making the body clean.

He does not make all foods clean here. That is an interpretation of the translators.

 

[Cristian_B]

If a person wishes to honor God by not shedding blood for food, or by only eating animals that have their throat slit with an exceedingly sharp knife, or by avoiding pork and shellfish, or by separating milk and meat, or by keeping utensils free from certain products/contacts, this is fine.

To answer your question, yes, a gentile can eat, say, camel for food, or drink camel milk. For those reading along who are not aware, a camel does not have a split hoof and so is not kosher. I will mention Noah, and Gen 9:1-3. All four categories of creatures came then to dread man, and be afraid, since all were given to Noah and his descendants for food.

No they were not. Please notice that of unclean animals only one pair of each unclean animal was sent to Noah while on the other hand seven pairs of clean animals were sent. Some were sacrificed and some were eaten. If Noah ate unclean animals, we wouldn’t have those animals today because only one pair of each was sent to Noah. So if Noah had eaten the male or the female female of that pair of unclean animals, then they wouldn’t exist today, because a pair is needed to reproduce, and if one is missing, they would die. Since it was the only pair, if they were eaten those animals would have disappeared, but looks like we have them today, which means Noah did not eat unclean animals.

Now, is there any passage in the Scriptures that declare unclean animals clean?

 

[Cristian_B]

I believe everybody should keep the Laws of Kashrut regardless of religion.

…If anything abstain from filthy pork.

While I don’t keep a kosher kitchen,I try my best to avoid pork.

It’s unhealthy and filthy…And it runs my BP up.

I agree with you.​

You know, God puts pork on the same category as rats.Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst of those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things—they will meet their end together; declares the LORD.

Isaiah 66:17
The Lord declares that those who eat pigs are in the same category as those who eat rats, and that they will be destroyed. So note that what we eat is important to the Lord.All day long I have held out My hands
to an obstinate people,
who walk in ways not good,
pursuing their own imaginations- ** a people who continually provoke Me **
to My very face,
offering sacrifices in gardens
and burning incense on altars of brick;
who sit among the graves
and spend their nights keeping secret vigil;
**who eat the flesh of pigs,
and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat; **
**who say, ‘Keep away; don’t come near me,
for I am too sacred for you!’ **
Such people are smoke in My nostrils,
a fire that keeps burning all day.

~Isaiah 65:2-5 (NIV, italics and bold mine)
The Lord is calling those who eat pork and other unclean animals hypocrites, and it is detestable to Him; because they believe they are holy, but they don’t realize that eating unclean animals (among doing other things) makes them unholy.