I hear you on that one. Sometimes I think that people have the ‘better you than me attitude’ and have no problem flaunting it. To be totally honest, I think the people who judge others the most for coming from a ‘bad’ family are probably in total denial of their own toxic family
This isn’t a surprise. Families don’t get to be toxic without covering up problems and pretending that unhealthy is normal, whether because we are ashamed or because we don’t imagine that there is another way to do things other than what we’ve become accustomed to. It is like that with all our faults; it makes total sense.
Thanks! Now I have an excuse to stay away from women for another half a year!
Two words: conditional fee.I personally guarantee it.
Once upon a time I got shunned for the percentile rate of divorce etc. in my family by a woman who didn’t mind hitting on me while insisting we were just colleagues, in her words. I was dead-afraid of any possible future less-than-monogamy basing on that behaviour, while she was afraid I’d seek divorce whenever anything happened, basing on family circumstances.
Chev I am so sorry to hear that last bit as you seem like you are trying your best to learn from your families mistakes. I think the best you can do is show that you are doing everything you can to learn what makes marriage. Good luck to you. Some women will be closed minded no matter what - just remember even one of the disciples had to touch Christ’s wounds.Thanks! Now I have an excuse to stay away from women for another half a year!
Two words: conditional fee.
Once upon a time I got shunned for the percentile rate of divorce etc. in my family by a woman who didn’t mind hitting on me while insisting we were just colleagues, in her words. I was dead-afraid of any possible future less-than-monogamy basing on that behaviour, while she was afraid I’d seek divorce whenever anything happened, basing on family circumstances.
BUT. It’s true that people coming from broken or dysfunctional families do face certain difficulties which can make it hard on others (not like people coming from Kelloggs families don’t have means of acquiring some of their own). Leaving aside the attribution of collective guilt, people may have a right to seek those not burdened with such problems.
The popular advice isn’t even to bother figuring out out whether or not a person truly has such problems… it’s more like “search for a deranged family member asap - then if you find one just assume the person is exactly like that family member and dump them with no further questions.”
Well, I got my law degree for a paper on reasonable doubt. My life is far easier without a wife that doesn’t believe in it.
Exactly. I hope I don’t offend anyone by saying this, and I don’t intend to, but rash judgements are on my own special list when it comes to women.
Yes I would think that would be on the definite negative list.
Yeah but I’m lenient as long as somebody isn’t too sanctimonious.Yes I would think that would be on the definite negative list.
In your case, if you had ongoing relationships with the narcissists, that would be a strike against you. If you were forthright about your background, I would actually know that you are healthy because you have cut contact with your abusers. Someone who is still involved with their abuser needs the abuser’s approval and is not ready to “leave and cleave.” JMO.The questions I’ve bolded here are the ones that are going to get me later on. My father is/was an abusive narcissist, my mom and brother ended up severely damaged emotionally as a result of this, yet they still defend my dad (in I guess something akin to Stockholm Syndrome) out of some sense of projective and misplaced guilt he has succeeded in imposing on them. I won’t derail this thread with all the horrible details but yeah… as if it’s MY fault I got born into a screwed-up family I didn’t choose.
One thing I’ve noticed is most people tend to assume their family is the same as everyone else’s to some degree. They just can’t fathom that there really are people so toxic out there that the only choice you have left is to cut contact. If there’s a bad relationship with either of the parents, it’s always at least partly “your” fault, even if the person making that judgement can’t explain why and knows no other details of the situation. Much less assuming things like I have any control over “how my mom and dad treat each other”. I don’t even know where to begin with how ridiculous that is, but it seems to be the common sentiment being thrown around in modern dating advice.
I will say that I do think getting to know the family situation (or lack thereof) with a potential spouse IS very important and can provide some good insight. What I take issue with are all the common fallacies that imply people can never rise above mindless devotion to whatever family they got stuck with, be they good or bad.
The divorce rate for first marriages in the US is somewhere around 40%. My husband and I would like each of our daughters to marry well and only one time despite the culture they’re living in that produced this percentage.
The idea of toxic parents is alien to a lot of people.The questions I’ve bolded here are the ones that are going to get me later on. My father is/was an abusive narcissist, my mom and brother ended up severely damaged emotionally as a result of this, yet they still defend my dad (in I guess something akin to Stockholm Syndrome) out of some sense of projective and misplaced guilt he has succeeded in imposing on them. I won’t derail this thread with all the horrible details but yeah… as if it’s MY fault I got born into a screwed-up family I didn’t choose.
One thing I’ve noticed is most people tend to assume their family is the same as everyone else’s to some degree. They just can’t fathom that there really are people so toxic out there that the only choice you have left is to cut contact. If there’s a bad relationship with either of the parents, it’s always at least partly “your” fault, even if the person making that judgement can’t explain why and knows no other details of the situation. Much less assuming things like I have any control over “how my mom and dad treat each other”. I don’t even know where to begin with how ridiculous that is, but it seems to be the common sentiment being thrown around in modern dating advice.
I will say that I do think getting to know the family situation (or lack thereof) with a potential spouse IS very important and can provide some good insight. What I take issue with are all the common fallacies that imply people can never rise above mindless devotion to whatever family they got stuck with, be they good or bad.
Having had one does not count. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Also, sometimes joint custody agreements make a certain amount of contact necessary. But yes, as long as you’ve learned your lesson, it isn’t necessarily a strike to have taken a few times to learn to studiously be on the lookout for and to avoid narcissists, sociopaths, the physically or emotionally abusive, and the like.
And unfortunately, narcissists (the DSM IV-TR Axis II variety, not self-admirers) and people with anti-social personality disorder as so able to mimic normal human empathy that spotting one in daily life can be impossible until they get caught doing something criminal.
Some of them can, but many give themselves away if you know what to look for. If a person lets on that they are willing to lie to persons not present–deceit is the lifeblood of the manipulator and the sociopath–if they have an inordinate need for thrill-seeking, if they have a streak of “the rules are for chumps”, if they try to seduce you into doing things you don’t want to do or glamourize their own risk-taking, if they have an inordinate need to be the center of attention, if they use their authority to intimidate you, if they are flatterers, if they have a taste for social intrigue (look at social life as winners and losers, instead of expecting that it is good when everyone comes out ahead), if they look for pity and use “hurt feelings” to get others to pick up the slack for them or do what they want, if they ever ask you to lie for them (BIG ONE!!), if they have a habit of trying to get out of work that is legitimately theirs to do, then run, and run fast, the other way.And unfortunately, narcissists (the DSM IV-TR Axis II variety, not self-admirers) and people with anti-social personality disorder as so able to mimic normal human empathy that spotting one in daily life can be impossible until they get caught doing something criminal.
The biggest clue IMO is that they do not think of others as real people, but merely objects they can use in whatever way they need to. This does not feel good unless someone is really not paying attention.
Yes. I think this is why people without a healthy sense of themselves sometimes do not recognize a manipulator or a user. If you were brought up in a house where your mother constantly criticized you and emotionally manipulated you and your father either ignored you or thought you a nuisance, then of course the red flags won’t go up when you choose to date someone toxic. They just pick up where your family left off, and you’re so used to being in the soup pot that you don’t recognize that you’re being cooked again.
