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CarolNoel
Guest
That’s like saying that there’s not much difference between the QE2 and the Titanic other than the fact that one happens to be afloat.
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Perhaps it might serve well to read this dialogue document prepared by Catholic and Lutheran theologians regarding what we do and don’t agree on.
prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html
The main point is that Lutherans do not now and never have taught consubstantiation.
Jon
You view, Father, compared to Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger,That’s like saying that there’s not much difference between the QE2 and the Titanic other than the fact that one happens to be afloat.
Compared to the view of the USCCB,
Jon
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Chatter163
Guest
Indeed, and articles 57-61 make it quite clear that Lutherans do not share the Catholic doctrine of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, as explained above.
I realize that other members here incorrectly spoken of consubstantiation, but that was by no means “the main point” of the entire document, nor did it have anything at all to do with my post, to which you were replying.
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eyesopening
Guest
Also, nowadays aren’t there multiple types of Lutherans who teach variants of all their teachings? I mean, anybody can start a denomination in the US with the word “Lutheran” thrown in there.
Here is a current list of Lutheran Churches.
Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
Church of the Lutheran Confession
Concordia Lutheran Conference
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference
Evangelical Lutheran Church “Concord” (Russia)
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church (Germany)
Evangelical Lutheran Synod (United States)
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Malawi Conference
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Zambia Conference
Ukrainian Lutheran Church
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (United States)
Evangelical Catholic Church
Kosovo Protestant Evangelical Church
Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran
Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America
International Lutheran Council
American Association of Lutheran Churches
Evangelical Lutheran Church - Synod of France and Belgium
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Brazil
Evangelical Lutheran Church of England
Gutnius Lutheran Church
Independent Evangelical-Lutheran Church
Japan Lutheran Church
Lanka Lutheran Church
Lutheran Church—Canada
Lutheran Church—Hong Kong Synod
Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (United States)
Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
Laestadian Lutheran Church
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Lutheran Church of China (no longer in existence)
Lutheran Church-International
Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (United States)
Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church (United States)
Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
Lutheran World Federation
Andhra Evangelical Lutheran Church
Arcot Lutheran Church
Batak Christian Protestant Church
Church of Denmark
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
Church of Iceland
Church of Norway
Church of Sweden
Church of the Faroe Islands
Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Papua New Guinea
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Madhya Pradesh
Evangelical Lutheran Church in the Himalayan States
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Norway (associate member)
Gossner Evangelical Lutheran Church in Chotanagpur and Assam
Indian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Jeypore Evangelical Lutheran Church
Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
Malagasy Lutheran Church
Northern Evangelical Lutheran Church
Simalungun Protestant Christian Church
South Andhra Lutheran Church
Tamil Evangelical Lutheran Church
That is from a wiki article titles “List of Christian Denominations.”
So they all disagree on something, or they wouldn’t have different names.
Here is a current list of Lutheran Churches.
Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
Church of the Lutheran Confession
Concordia Lutheran Conference
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference
Evangelical Lutheran Church “Concord” (Russia)
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church (Germany)
Evangelical Lutheran Synod (United States)
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Malawi Conference
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Zambia Conference
Ukrainian Lutheran Church
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (United States)
Evangelical Catholic Church
Kosovo Protestant Evangelical Church
Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran
Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America
International Lutheran Council
American Association of Lutheran Churches
Evangelical Lutheran Church - Synod of France and Belgium
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Brazil
Evangelical Lutheran Church of England
Gutnius Lutheran Church
Independent Evangelical-Lutheran Church
Japan Lutheran Church
Lanka Lutheran Church
Lutheran Church—Canada
Lutheran Church—Hong Kong Synod
Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (United States)
Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
Laestadian Lutheran Church
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Lutheran Church of China (no longer in existence)
Lutheran Church-International
Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (United States)
Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church (United States)
Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
Lutheran World Federation
Andhra Evangelical Lutheran Church
Arcot Lutheran Church
Batak Christian Protestant Church
Church of Denmark
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
Church of Iceland
Church of Norway
Church of Sweden
Church of the Faroe Islands
Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Papua New Guinea
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Madhya Pradesh
Evangelical Lutheran Church in the Himalayan States
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Norway (associate member)
Gossner Evangelical Lutheran Church in Chotanagpur and Assam
Indian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Jeypore Evangelical Lutheran Church
Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
Malagasy Lutheran Church
Northern Evangelical Lutheran Church
Simalungun Protestant Christian Church
South Andhra Lutheran Church
Tamil Evangelical Lutheran Church
That is from a wiki article titles “List of Christian Denominations.”
So they all disagree on something, or they wouldn’t have different names.
No more so than the USCCB and the CCCB, assuming those named synods confess the Lutheran confessions. Lutheran teaching is Lutheran teaching. If a Lutheran confesses something else, then to the extent they vary from the confessions, they stop being Lutheran.
Jon
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eyesopening
Guest
The Catholic Church isn’t made up of separate denominations. These are all separate denominations of Lutherans with completely separate leadership. Catholics ultimately are all answerable to the Pope.
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PJM
Guest
Awwww, SHUCKS,
And here I thought God’s Truth was [is?] singular:shrug:
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BobDanners
Guest
Well Vanny…I see you put LCMS and WELS down, but have you ever attended the largest Lutheran synod in America? The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.
Cause I was a former ELCA and they offered grapejuice for those suffering from alcoholism.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Actually, your quote proves my point.
Just as the differences between the QE2 and the Titanic cannot be “narrowed” to the simple distinction of one being afloat and the other being at the bottom of the Atlantic…
…neither can the differences between Holy Communion and the Lutheran Lord’s Supper be narrowed to the simple question of validity, or even the question of valid Apostolic Succession. There is much, much more to it than just that.
The salvation granting presence. A remarkable statement from a man who would one day be pope. It is statements like these that made Pope Benedict a favorite among Lutherans, not that we needed his affirmation in any way to know that when we receive at a Lutheran mass, we are receiving His true body and blood.
Jon
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Vanny
Guest
yes- I attended an ELCA church in another state from 1989-1991 and when I moved here from 1991-1993. I had to leave them because I was appalled at their statement on abortion, their increasing acceptance of homosexual unions, and later looking back I disagree with their teaching of open communion. I really loved the church I attended from 1989-1991 but the ELCA in the time I left became so liberal(the pastor in one of my bible studies telling me in 1992 that he hoped same-sex unions became legal one day, That I had to leave. We have many former ELCA’ers in our church who left after recent developments in the ELCA!(we live in a rural area where the closest LCMS is 45 minutes away) I was actually raised baptized and confirmed in a LCMS church. More to come later…have to go to work…
ETA: The WELS would in no way serve grape juice, I don’t THINK the LCMS does but I can’t remember-yeah now that you mention maybe the ELCA did.(I always took the wine)
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englishredrose
Guest
God Loves us all
good luck
good luck
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Chatter163
Guest
As I am sure you are aware, ELCA was created in 1988 through a merger of The Lutheran Church in America, the American Lutheran Church and the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches. The LCA was the largest group prior to that merger, and had endorsed the availability of legalized abortion several years before Roe v. Wade. The ALC had also endorsed this so-called right (though somewhat less stridently), during the 1970s. While I realize that ELCA’s 1991 statement was somewhat jarring in its assertion, surely it could not come as a complete shock, since there had been an increasingly pro-abortion presence within the largest Lutheran groups for twenty years.
I recalled this because in 1982 The Episcopal Church began a limited communion-sharing agreement with the LCA; this was one of the last straws for me in TEC. I was already aware of TEC’s very pro-abortion stance and a host of other issues, and felt that there was no way, despite my Anglo-Catholic formation, that one could truly be a Catholic in TEC. I left not long after that. Ten or so years later, a concordat for interchange of ministries was proposed. It took many years for that to pass, but it did. Since both churches’ membership is declining, I am sure that there will eventually be a full merger.
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andrewstx
Guest
Not really in the 19th century there were different Lutheran churches from the nations and languages spoken in them. As Lutherans abandoned their ethic languages they merged.
Now there are only two Lutheran synods that most American Lutherans belong to. LCMS and ELCA.
I am not so sure about the Wisconsin Synod, only that they are small, (there was no WELS church in this area until recently). I understand they are highly Pietistic, and plain, they do not use vestments at all.
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QNDNNDQDCE
Guest
I have unsuccessfully tried searching for the full text that the quotation is taken from. In the absence of any additional context, I have to assume you are reading much more into what Ratzinger said than he intended. He says that a theory of apostolic succession need not deny the “salvation-granting presence” of Christ in the Lutheran Lord’s Supper. However this does not say that the Lutheran eucharist is substantially the body and blood of Christ, and the rather nebulous language used here suggests that Ratzinger was very careful not to affirm this while maintaining charitable language. All it says is that Christ may be (remember that he said it need not be denied, not necessarily affirmed) somehow present in the Lutheran eucharist, which can be interpreted in many ways. After all, I’m sure you could find some traditionally minded Presbyterians who would say that Christ is truly present in the sacrament in a salvation-giving way while rejecting the doctrine that the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ in anything more than a figure of speaking. So Lutherans may in some way encounter the Christ in their celebration of the Lord’s Supper, but that dors not mean that their eucharist is in any way valid, i.e. truly and substantially the Lord Jesus Christ in body, blood, soul and divinity. Indeed, by saying that the question can be narrowed to validity, he seems to be bypassing this question entirely.
The quote can be found in Cardinal Ratinger’s book, Pilgrim Fellowship of Faith, in a letter written to a German Lutheran Bishop friend of his. It is also found in the Catholic - Lutheran dialogue document, The Chuurch as Koinonia of Salvation, paragraph 107.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/koinonia-of-salvation.cfm
Jon
Actually not. Consubstantiation is a co-existing, or even a co-mingling.
Christ’s words are exactly what you stated, as He is holding bread in His hands and says, “this (meaning the bread) is my body.” He doesn’t go on to explain how, so it is a mystery. Lutherans endeavor to explain it no further than that. Therefore, what we receive isHis body.
Jon
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Sorry am late to conversation, but here is my research on Comparing Catholic and Lutheran Eucharist.
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