Difference between Catholic "speaking in tongues" as oppose to Pentecostal "speaking of tongues"

[Daniel_Marsh]

Which kind of tongues? All kinds, or just the mostly misinterpreted gibberish at Pentecostal churches?

All I have seen is misinterpreted gibberish. Some, have added a greater combination of such and appear more complex, while others are newer at this practice and are less experienced and thus appear to be simpler. But, none that researchers have been able to document are really an language at all.

Pentecostals have gone as far as using new age auras in their research trying to find support for tongue speaking.

A challenge I often make to pentecostal - charismatic preachers is to get hold of some language tapes in an language that no one is likely to know in their congregation. Play those tapes for those who say they have the gift of interpretation and see if any can even come close to the correct interpretation. To date ( 30 years), every pastor who has done this, has seen that not one person even came close to the correct interpretation. Not one. If you have pentecostal or charismatic friends you can do this yourself to prove that their interpretations are simply made up.

tapes or cds are available through,
multilanguage.com/catalog.htm

 

[dhgray]

I don’t buy into the idea of babbling gibberish noises.

Interesting … Latin is “babbling gibberish” to me…I should I just dismiss a language since I don’t understand it?

(to answer the origional question: One problem with some Pentecostal Churches is they beleve that one HAS to speak in tongues to “prove” they are in the Spirit. The gift of tongues is just that “A GIFT” given to whom the Spirit wills…1 Cor. 12:11

 

[guanophore]

In context, Romans 8:26 is NOT about speaking in tongues, that is just an example of poor pentecostal exegesis. In context, the Holy Spirit is praying directly to the Father without going through a human host.

Why is it so objectionable to you that the Spirit would pray through a person? Do you not think that all the sacraments work through persons?

His concern about a serious lack of the fruit of the spirit among pentecostals - charismatics is a vaild concern.

I agree

Tell me, exactly what benefit does one gain from God by having their body burned or being burned to death?

Since today is the memorial of Joan of Arc, I would have to say sainthood.

1 Corinthians 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

But it does not say one should not give their goods, feed the poor, or face martyrdom, does it? It needs to be done in love. All the gifts need to be used in love, or they are of no profit.

 

[guanophore]

All I have seen is misinterpreted gibberish. Some, have added a greater combination of such and appear more complex, while others are newer at this practice and are less experienced and thus appear to be simpler. But, none that researchers have been able to document are really an language at all.

Pentecostals have gone as far as using new age auras in their research trying to find support for tongue speaking.

A challenge I often make to pentecostal - charismatic preachers is to get hold of some language tapes in an language that no one is likely to know in their congregation. Play those tapes for those who say they have the gift of interpretation and see if any can even come close to the correct interpretation. To date ( 30 years), every pastor who has done this, has seen that not one person even came close to the correct interpretation. Not one. If you have pentecostal or charismatic friends you can do this yourself to prove that their interpretations are simply made up.

tapes or cds are available through,
multilanguage.com/catalog.htm

I think you are misunderstanding the gift, how it is to be used, and how it is to be tested. I have seen resources like this, though, where known languages have been recorded and interpreted.

Interesting … Latin is “babbling gibberish” to me…I should I just dismiss a language since I don’t understand it?

(to answer the origional question: One problem with some Pentecostal Churches is they beleve that one HAS to speak in tongues to “prove” they are in the Spirit. The gift of tongues is just that “A GIFT” given to whom the Spirit wills…1 Cor. 12:11

Yes, this pressure that everyone should speak in tongues is inappropriate, and the notion that one is not really baptized in the HS unless they do is also inappropriate. These are not speaking the truth in love. It is false doctrine.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Why would Paul want everyone to use the gift, if everyone did not have it?

Basically, paul is saying that he desires all to put their spiriutal gift into practice. His goal is to point them towards the greater gifts and based on what he wrote before this passage he does not believe that every believer speaks in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (New International Version)

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

The greek grammar for all these questions is a resound No, thus not all are apostles, not all are prophets, not all are teachers, not all work miracles, not all have the gift of healing, not all speak in tongues and not all interpret tongues.

Yes, Paul wrote that the gifts would cease,

Historically, I cor 13:10 is associated with I John 3:2 the second coming of Jesus when all is completed.

Many Protestants teach

Amen, we protestants know that too. The higher gifts at least will be with us until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Ephesians 4:13

I think one reason these gifts leaked out

Or it is simply the sprit blowing where he wills, and as I said before much of today’s tongue speaking is simply made up.

This is typical of manifestations of the Gifts of the Spirit when

I have seen the chaos in both protestant and catholic circles. And, those within catholic circles claim to be in union with the teaching authories of the catholic church.

This is a sad state of affairs, and I have experienced similar.

And, yet Stephen Acts 6 & 7, never spoke in tongues at all.

Amen, I understand the group think, and group pressure well.

I don’t see how adding fraud to more fraud helps anything!

I would caution you not to degrade the gift of God, spoken of in

I am not degrading the true gift of speaking in tongues from God, I am exposing the carnal fleshly immatiation of it. I myself have spoken in missionary tongues on two occasions, in in both occasions the person came to christ.

This statement is

Not true, tongues can have three sources, man immatiating them, the Holy Spirit, and demons. The purpose of tongues is to speak a message of encouragement to the body of christ. But, modern tongue speakers have become good at immatation.

Take the time to look at the culture where tongue speaking first came about. It was at a festival, where people from all over the known world came to the holy city to worship God. Today, America has only a handful of language groups that are somewhat isolated from each other. In the average church service everyone understands the language being spoken. Rarely, does someone of a different language group attend a church that does not speak their language.

 

[Sixtus]

Rarely, does someone of a different language group attend a church that does not speak their language.

The Church where I attend, has an Indian community. In addition to attending pro-populace masses, they also have their own rites.

I have witnessed one and though it is in Indian so did not understand a word, it was absolutely beautiful. The music was angelic. It far surpassed anything I had ever heard. It was absolutely stunning.

So it might be said they were speaking in tongues. But is was an incridible experience

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Why is it so objectionable to you that the Spirit would pray through a person? Do you not think that all the sacraments work through persons?

I have no objection to the Holy Spirit praying through a person. It is that Romans 8:26 is NOT talking about the Spirit praying through a person. Pentecostals tend to read that into the text.
The language that the Holy Spirit uses in this case simply can not be expressed on human lips. In Romans 8:26, the Holy Spirit like Jesus elsewhere in scripture are both praying for us independent of speaking through our lips.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

 

[Sixtus]

Daniel Marsh posted:

little faith", that just shows how little you know. Demonization or labeling those who disagree with you only shows me that you are involved with a group who practices spiritual abuse.

My dear Daniel, you are absolutely right: every time I go near a church much less so inside it, abuse takes place. I am one of the Lords most unworthy sinful wretches whose sins are scarlet.

But it was not my intention to offend you. I used the expression in a jockular fashion in support of your jockularity about pretending to read out a shopping list

I in fact am committed not to label anyone. Even in my job where I am paid to attach labels on people, I refuse to do so because labelling is evil.

So mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa: please accept my most sincere and humble apologies.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I think you are misunderstanding the gift, how it is to be used, and how it is to be tested. I have seen resources like this, though, where known languages have been recorded and interpreted.

This is exactly the “test” that was used in Acts 2, people from all nations or language groups heard the christians speaking their own human language.

5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them **speaking in his own language. **7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism Cretans and Arabs—**we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” **

Please provide the documentation to your claim, that pentecoastals have correctly interpreted recorded messages. I have been making that challenge for about 30 years and not once has anyoen correctly made an interpretation. Researchers and Linquists have been doing the same thing for decades ( see my list in my OP for documentation ) and no one has gotten an interpretation correct.

Yes, this pressure that everyone should speak in tongues is inappropriate, and the notion that one is not really baptized in the HS unless they do is also inappropriate. These are not speaking the truth in love. It is false doctrine.

we agree here.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Daniel Marsh posted:

My dear Daniel, you are absolutely right: every time I go near a church much less so inside it, abuse takes place. I am one of the Lords most unworthy sinful wretches whose sins are scarlet.

But it was not my intention to offend you. I used the expression in a jockular fashion in support of your jockularity about pretending to read out a shopping list

I in fact am committed not to label anyone. Even in my job where I am paid to attach labels on people, I refuse to do so because labelling is evil.

So mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa: please accept my most sincere and humble apologies.

I am then sorry that I misunderstood you.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

All I have seen is misinterpreted gibberish. Some, have added a greater combination of such and appear more complex, while others are newer at this practice and are less experienced and thus appear to be simpler. But, none that researchers have been able to document are really an language at all.

Pentecostals have gone as far as using new age auras in their research trying to find support for tongue speaking.

A challenge I often make to pentecostal - charismatic preachers is to get hold of some language tapes in an language that no one is likely to know in their congregation. Play those tapes for those who say they have the gift of interpretation and see if any can even come close to the correct interpretation. To date ( 30 years), every pastor who has done this, has seen that not one person even came close to the correct interpretation. Not one. If you have pentecostal or charismatic friends you can do this yourself to prove that their interpretations are simply made up.

tapes or cds are available through,
multilanguage.com/catalog.htm

So you’re opposed to the PUBLIC use of “tongues” that may or may not be interpreted correctly, not PRIVATE prayer languages, then?

It frankly hurts to read that my private prayer language, which I received from God while I was still skeptical of the whole idea, is superstitious nonsense, that’s all. (I know you aren’t the one who originally said that, but you did answer my question so I assume you believe the same.)

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I would love to encounter a group that gets all the interpretations correct, so I could point the researchers to them to blow their minds.

 

[water]

So you’re opposed to the PUBLIC use of “tongues” that may or may not be interpreted correctly, not PRIVATE prayer languages, then?

It frankly hurts to read that my private prayer language, which I received from God while I was still skeptical of the whole idea, is superstitious nonsense, that’s all. (I know you aren’t the one who originally said that, but you did answer my question so I assume you believe the same.)

When someone thinks your praying in tongue is a fake, ignore him/her and/or say that wait til it happen to you.

You see, although I don’t use praying in tongue anymore, but it did happen to me while I was praying the rosary at home. At that time, I hardly knew anything about praying in tounge. I happened to go to a seminar for 4 days, and it happened to me on the 3rd day.

I wasn’t faking it but why I no longer continue praying? It is because it doesn’t happen to me anymore…period…I asked God that I didn’t know much about praying in tounge and I was confused, helped me by giving me some simple gifts that I have peace in my heart. That was it. After that, I am hooked with praying the rosary and many other prayers in my mother language or English.

Whatever happened to me the first night I was praying in tongue while praying the rosary, my life has been changed for better ever since. It was a year ago.

Praise the Lord!

 

[dessert]

Why the caps, are you angry?

No i was just lazy.

 

[dessert]

When I was a protestant, I remember one Charismatic (but not Pentecostal) friend of mine saying that in his church, if there was someone who had a prayer in tongues, and it was genuine and from the Lord, there would always be someone else in church who would be given the gift of interpretation, to translate the tongue to the rest of the congregation. This sounds accurate, and similar to the kind of praying in tongues talked about by St Paul.

On the other hand, some Pentecostal churches, e.g. the Assemblies of God, teach that speaking in tongues is the single definitive mark of being born again. People in those churches all speak in tongues at the same time, which is more like mass hysteria, and many former Pentecostals will openly admit that they were faking it.

I was in this sort of church once and also in a church where only 3 messages were allowed as the minister would say before hand, so everyone would know that if they are second there would be only one more allowed and also in one that one message on one side of the room said the opposite as the message on the ither. this is a sort of abuse as to regulating the spirit I’m glad when I am in my parish and there are none but am interested in the private revelation so I discuss this with my priest in the confessional about any of this.

Mass hysteria
My daughter has spoken I found out one day never knew but she admitted that she never told anyone because she was embarrased and didn’t know what it meant, stupid me didn’t know how to talk with her about it, so the others in her AofG prayed and prayed for her to receive and so she faked it to receive so they would quit and then on the next sunday announced that she had received silly isn’t it but they do really announce it to the world and it is a big thing like our confirmation and first communion, she also said she liked the attention.
I think my son does and so i really need to speak with him about it but he does not attend a church.
40 years ago this was never talked about so why is it now?
I’m confused. Dessert

 

[guanophore]

Basically, paul is saying that he desires all to put their spiriutal gift into practice. His goal is to point them towards the greater gifts and based on what he wrote before this passage he does not believe that every believer speaks in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (New International Version)

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

The greek grammar for all these questions is a resound No, thus not all are apostles, not all are prophets, not all are teachers, not all work miracles, not all have the gift of healing, not all speak in tongues and not all interpret tongues.

A distinction must be made here between formal “offices” in the church (apostles, prophets, teachers), gifts that go with those offices, and the gifts that are used in formal worship. Paul wanted the public worship to be decent and in order, which it was not.

If you read further in this passage you will find:

1 Cor 14:1-2
14:1 Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit."

When Paul says “I would that you all speak in tongues” he is not speaking here of the public function of the gift, but a private prayer language that is used for individual prayer.

The higher gifts at least will be with us until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Ephesians 4:13

Yes, the higher gifts, as well as the lesser gifts, which we are also commanded to earnestly desire.

Or it is simply the sprit blowing where he wills, and as I said before much of today’s tongue speaking is simply made up.

I agree, but that does not negate the authenticity of the genuine gift when it is used properly.

Abuse of the gift is tragic, just like abuse of the liturgy. It does not make the liturgy invalid either.

And, yet Stephen Acts 6 & 7, never spoke in tongues at all.

You don’t know this.

I am not degrading the true gift of speaking in tongues from God, I am exposing the carnal fleshly immatiation of it. I myself have spoken in missionary tongues on two occasions, in in both occasions the person came to christ.

It seems to me that you are ruling out a private prayer language that is scriptural, and taught by the Apostles.

Not true, tongues can have three sources, man immatiating them, the Holy Spirit, and demons. The purpose of tongues is to speak a message of encouragement to the body of christ. But, modern tongue speakers have become good at immatation.

It is regrettable that the gift of the HS has been so denigrated, however, there are various kinds of tongues, and one of them is a private prayer language where one utters mysteries in the spirit, allowing the HS to pray through one because one does not know how to pray as he ought. You may not recognize this gift, may not want it, and may think it does not exist, or it is from the devil or from the flesh. You are entitled to your opinion. It does not change the facts.

This is exactly the “test” that was used in Acts 2, people from all nations or language groups heard the christians speaking their own human language.

This was not a 'test" Daniel. It was an observation on how the HS manifested.

Please provide the documentation to your claim, that pentecoastals have correctly interpreted recorded messages. I have been making that challenge for about 30 years and not once has anyoen correctly made an interpretation. Researchers and Linquists have been doing the same thing for decades ( see my list in my OP for documentation ) and no one has gotten an interpretation correct.

I will see what I can do about this. It has been many years since I studied it, and having had my doubts assuaged, I have not kept any of it. I cannot speak to anything “pentcoastal”, in any case, as my sojourn in that area was short and no longer informs my experience.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

When someone thinks your praying in tongue is a fake, ignore him/her and/or say that wait til it happen to you.

Nobody could definitely say that mine is fake, because no one but God hears me when my prayer language is being used. I do not pray in tongues out loud in public. There have been moments in the past where I have prayed at church and the Spirit takes over but it was during a time when everyone was either praying (the Baptist church I used to attend had a prayer time where everyone said their own prayer out loud, in English) or singing (during the altar call) and I did not pray loud enough to be heard by anyone else other than God.

You see, although I don’t use praying in tongue anymore, but it did happen to me while I was praying the rosary at home. At that time, I hardly knew anything about praying in tounge. I happened to go to a seminar for 4 days, and it happened to me on the 3rd day.

I wasn’t faking it but why I no longer continue praying? It is because it doesn’t happen to me anymore…period…I asked God that I didn’t know much about praying in tounge and I was confused, helped me by giving me some simple gifts that I have peace in my heart. That was it. After that, I am hooked with praying the rosary and many other prayers in my mother language or English.

Whatever happened to me the first night I was praying in tongue while praying the rosary, my life has been changed for better ever since. It was a year ago.

Praise the Lord!

I, too, haven’t prayed in a tongue for quite some time. I don’t think it has to happen every time someone prays for it to be genuine. In fact, I would say that because it was a one-time event for you and you recognize a positive change in your life since that time, would be good evidence that it was of God, particularly since you were NOT seeking it.

 

[guanophore]

Daniel Marsh posted:

But it was not my intention to offend you. I used the expression in a jockular fashion in support of your jockularity about pretending to read out a shopping list

I dont’ think he was kidding, Sixtus. It think he really did translate his grocery list into Hebrew or some other language,and read it to test whether it could be interpreted.

Naturally, this was an abuse, because all such expressions should only take place to edify the body, and reading one’s shopping list to prove to oneself that the HS is not operating is certainly not in any manner edifying the body.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

In context, Romans 8:26 is NOT about speaking in tongues, that is just an example of poor pentecostal exegesis. In context, the Holy Spirit is praying directly to the Father without going through a human host.

His concern about a serious lack of the fruit of the spirit among pentecostals - charismatics is a vaild concern.

Tell me, exactly what benefit does one gain from God by having their body burned or being burned to death?

1 Corinthians 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

I’m not pentecostal, I’ve never heard a pentecostal speak, and I haven’t read their works. I can certainly see how you would come to your conclusion and admit I am not infallible. I hope you can admit you are not infallible. I can honestly say that although I am looking at this scripture in light of other scriptures that talk about speaking in tongues, I am also looking at it in light of St. Teresa’s Interior mansions, and in light of this gift being given to me. It’s true this particular verse may not be about praying in tongues, however, since I have been given that gift, I tend to think it is. Not that you care, but I am not talking about the seeming hysterics that occurs in pentecostal services. I NEVER thought that I would receive this gift and always thought it was rather kooky. Yet, like PixieDust, I have received a prayer language. It is nothing for me to be proud of–I’m not more faithful to God than you or anyone else here. The Spirit bestows gifts on whom He will. I’m still trying to figure out why I received a gift I didn’t really believe in. But I’m certainly not going to pretend it doesn’t exist so that I can avoid ridicule on these forums.

There are a lot members of this forum who think they know what praying in tongues is. I find that many of them don’t know what they are talking about. Praying in tongues (not to be confused with speaking in tongues with interpretation) is not about hysterics and putting on a show to let everyone know how much you’ve got the Spirit. Quite the contrary! Praying in tongues is about humility before God, docility to the Spirit, and more than anything glorifying God. Humility, docility, and glorifying God–I’m hoping we can agree these are good fruits. Since a great deal of people who “pray in tongues” seem to be frantically drawing attention to themselves, I would venture to guess that there are a great many frauds out there. This is too bad because it casts such a dark shadow on a gift of God.

As to your quote about “being burned to death” I’m not sure how it applies to this discussion. Please elaborate.

 

[dessert]

I have no objection to the Holy Spirit praying through a person. It is that Romans 8:26 is NOT talking about the Spirit praying through a person. Pentecostals tend to read that into the text.
The language that the Holy Spirit uses in this case simply can not be expressed on human lips. In Romans 8:26, the Holy Spirit like Jesus elsewhere in scripture are both praying for us independent of speaking through our lips.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

I think you misunderstand tongues. Are you Pentecostal?
Dessert