Difference between Catholic "speaking in tongues" as oppose to Pentecostal "speaking of tongues"

[KatholikosMercy]

Yes, I agree with that. Contrary to what some charismatics practice, I do not see a place for it in the Mass, which is our public worship. I fully agree with you (and scripture ) on that point.

Agreed though I have been moved to private prayer tongues on many many occasions.

 

[dessert]

No, one needs to be confronted with facts to get them outside their comfort zone. If I were to say, to someone who is faking, hey that is NOT what I said, you misinterted me without proof of what I really said. They would come back with a lame, well that is what God wanted the people to hear. But, If I approach that person with, here is exactly what I said, and here is exactly what it is, their best retort is to stay silent and run for the hills. If they are doing it out of pride, then confronting them with the truth is a waste of time. But, if they are following the crowd, then the confrontation puts them outside their confornt zone, and they will have to think things through, and make a choice. I think God is trying to call people out of the pentecostal movements because frankly he is not pleased with their false worship. Yes, faking tongues is false worship, think about that.

And, No I am not accusing you of pride because frankly, I never met you in person, nor seen your behavior.

As for the body being burned thing, Paul is simply using an exageration. Just like, speaking in the language of angels is an exageration.

1 Corinthians 13

1 I may be able to speak the languages of men and even of angels, but if I do not have love, it will sound like noisy brass. 2 If I have the gift of speaking God’s Word and if I understand all secrets, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I know all things and if I have the gift of faith so I can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give everything I have to feed poor people and if I give my body to be burned, but do not have love, it will not help me.

Yes we should approach people with love and understanding.
This I agree with. English works best and to just throw scripture in their face doesn’t work as many know the bible inside and out.

Some people say it is their spirit language and they don’t need to know what it means. I like to know as with any language a person is speaking to me. Most people I think like to know what they are saying.

But false worship is between the Lord and the person it is not affecting me.

If a person lights a candle and prays in tongues that is their personal space and can be seperate from the group worship because they are in their own zone.

There can be group worship and indivdual worship during mass because it is hard to stay focused entirely on the mass.
Sometimes I read my prayer book while the priests talks his homily as it follows along and he may be boring that day.
I suppose you call this false prayer?
Dessert

 

[JoeyWarren]

I meditated on this “speaking in tongues” during Mass today. I believe the “tongues” referred to, from the text, were established languages that were recognizable to those who heard them, even thought the apostles ‘spoke’ in their own language.
.

I concur. In the modern day if it was real today would 12 apostles standing around. 1 was speaking German, 2nd one was speaking Spanish, the 3rd one was speaking Chinese, the 4th was speaking Italian, the 5th was speaking French, the 6th was speaking Hungarian, the 7th was speaking Russian, the 8th was speaking swahili, the 9th was speaking Aboriginese, the 10 was speaking Spanish, the 11th was speaking in Korean, and the 12th was speaking in Mayan. The English speaking only types are recognizing the fact that each apostle is speaking in their own language but the English person is hearing it being instanteously translated to English. IE the English person is understanding that the Apostle from Spain is speaking spanish but the English person is actually hearing it in english.

I don’t buy into the idea of babbling gibberish noises

Ditto.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Yes, I agree with that. Contrary to what some charismatics practice, I do not see a place for it in the Mass, which is our public worship. I fully agree with you (and scripture ) on that point.

Good to hear, Amen.

aside: I am in physical thearpy for shoulder joint pain. I have been trying an experimental espoxy joint replacement which is done by imaging and injections. I have a degenerative bone disease among other problems.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Yes we should approach people with love and understanding.
This I agree with. English works best and to just throw scripture in their face doesn’t work as many know the bible inside and out.

Some people say it is their spirit language and they don’t need to know what it means. I like to know as with any language a person is speaking to me. Most people I think like to know what they are saying.

But false worship is between the Lord and the person it is not affecting me.

If a person lights a candle and prays in tongues that is their personal space and can be seperate from the group worship because they are in their own zone.

There can be group worship and indivdual worship during mass because it is hard to stay focused entirely on the mass.
Sometimes I read my prayer book while the priests talks his homily as it follows along and he may be boring that day.
I suppose you call this false prayer?
Dessert

If the priest is preaching the word, how can you not stay focused?
If there is a sound problem, you should say something to someone. If it is an attention problem, ask God to give you a greater hunger for his word. And, don’t sit in any windows during his sermons ( yes, this is a joke from Acts ).

According to I Cor 12, when one member of the body is hurting the whole body is affected. So, when a congregation of the body of Christ is faking worship it does effect the whole body. The foot can not say I do not need rest of the body.

1. to stammer

1. to repeat the same things over and over, to use many idle words, to babble, prate. Some suppose the word derived from Battus, a king of Cyrene, who is said to have stuttered; others from Battus, an author of tedious and wordy poems.

Matthew 6

5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. KJV

---

NASB: "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. (NASB ©1995)​

GWT: "When you pray, don’t ramble like heathens who think they’ll be heard if they talk a lot. (GOD’S WORD®)​

KJV: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.​

WEY: "And when praying, do not use needless repetitions as the Gentiles do, for they expect to be listened to because of their multitude of words.​

When one is faking tongues I think they are simply babbling gibberish that has no meaning at all, that is what Jesus speaks out against. They do fake tongues to be seen by people so that they may be treated as part of the “in group”.

 

[Sixtus]

Prayer Worrier posted:

Yes, I agree with that. Contrary to what some charismatics practice, I do not see a place for it in the Mass,

I can see where you are coming from. I enjoy singing hymns but during the Eucharistic prayer,I find the Mass such an emotional experience that I prefer reflective silence.

But I have friends whose are ‘happy clappers’ making the maximum noise possible. It must be contagious because our elderly traditionalist priest actually often joins in with the clapping.

I personally find it distasteful but recognise their right to be moved by the Holy Spirit to celebrate and praise God how they feel appropriate. Are their tears of joy any less valid than my tears of awe!

 

[KatholikosMercy]

I personally find it distasteful but recognise their right to be moved by the Holy Spirit to celebrate and praise God how they feel appropriate. Are their tears of joy any less valid than my tears of awe!

It could be less valid if its insincere or from pride.

There needs to be an understanding of pride to know for sure.

Example, If I do not feel comfortable out of my own rationalism or concupisense to holding hands during the “Our Father” or raising my hands in jesture toward “also with you” and I less in communion with the church? Those things are part of the room for the individual to express themselves. The are neither prohibited or encouraged by canon.

I think the question then becomes, should there be a norm in posture of worship? I think we would all agree that there needs to be a structure. If so then how far is acceptable to deviate from that structure via personal interpretation?

If its still a sincere charism then I don’t see how it can or evn should be discouraged. We need to express Love of God and each other. Just not be forced to.

Mat 6:18 . . . . but to your Father in secret. And your Father seeing in secret will repay you in the open.

Mat 6:19 Do not treasure up for you treasures on the earth

Mat 6:20 But treasure up for you treasures in Heaven

 

[guanophore]

I considered myself to be charismatic, but I moved on to the greater gifts which are church centered and are much more mature.

It is good that you are following the still more excellent way, DM. However, St. Paul enjoins us to “earnestly desire the spiritual gifts” and that we may all speak in tongues. These lesser gifts can be avenues to the greater ones, because they can strengthen the believer in his walk. All the gifts are to be “church” centered. It seems to me that you have rejected some of them because you have experienced them in a venue where they were used self centeredly.

It is my experience that those who stay at the tongues level rarely mature in their faith.

I think this may be a truncated view of tongues. The use of any of the gifts does not indicate a “level” of spiritual maturity. A seasoned and mature Christian may still used the gift of tongues, long after they are being perfected in more excellent gifts. Neither does the reception or use of tongues (or any of the charismata) indicate that a person is holier, more "saved’ or more perfected in the HS. Be careful to avoid the very error you have identified in the Pentecostal circles, that presence of gifts “levels” people.

Many, even pastors fall away from the faith.  I have seen pastors who through "revelations" believed that God was telling them to divorce  their faithful wife, to join up with a sexy young lady 20-30 years younger than himself.  And, worse than that remain in the pulpit.   I have seen pastors who through "revelations" match up couples who did not know each other, and who were clearly poor matches, and all of them to my knowledge divorced each other within a few years, and are now "unchurched".   Yes, some will consider joining a house church but are cautious.  It was clear that the overriding factor in the pastor's choices were those that he believed were fully faithful to himself, and those who were immature, that were likely to be influnced to be faithful to that pastor.  I know a young lady who has gone through three such marriages that ended in divorce that were set up by revelations of some pastors.

this is why it is so important to discern revelation. The Church has 2000 years of experience in this area. The HS will not guide anyone to defy the teachings of the Church or the Scripture. The denial of these guideposts is what leads to spiritual immaturity and sin, not the gifts themselves.

On the other side, among those who deny that the Holy Spirit is empowering the gift of tongues today, I have seen many of them mature deepily into the fruit of the Holy Spirit and have remained steadfast in the Lord.

Clearly the Spirit works in many and various ways, and gives each according to what He wills. People do mature in Christ according to their individual needs. Some people can benefit spiritually from charismatic gifts, others mature differently.

The best case would be one who is employing his or her spiritual gifts and are maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. Unfortuneately this is rare.

Yes, but how will it get more common with you throwing out the baby with the bathwater!

Since you have seen this, and experienced it, you are the most perfect person to help bring balance!

 

[guanophore]

So, in short, I believe
That spiritual gifts are for today, but much that is out there is simply human based faking. And, yes I used the gift of discernment before reading my shopping list. So, no I was not tempting the Lord ( Acts 5 ).

The faking stuff is very sad. I am sure it hurts God’s heart. I think it hurts God’s heart that you have become so dissolutioned by His gift also. what would you have done had someone taken you out and chastized you for reading your shopping list? Would that have increased your faith?

If God is truly empowering tongues in a congregation, then he will be empowering the other gifts too like miracle worker, healing, teaching, preaching, evangelist — Many if not all these gifts are missing.

Hebrews 2:4 (New International Version)
God also testified to it [salvation] by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Do you really think it is God’s will only to give the church the most immature gift? And, not give the church all the mature gifts?
Why are the mature gifts missing in pentecostal - charismatic circles?

I agree with you, and no, I do not think God wants to stop at the immature gift. I believe He wants all the gifts functioning all the time. Why are they missing? I think the reasons you have given on this thread are good ones. I think that the greater gifts do work where there is greater spiritual maturity, and too many will not move on from the elementary works of Christ.

That one is to move onto the gifts that are church centered, leaving the childish behavior behind.

That Paul’s instruction on prayer tongues must comform to Jesus teaching on prayer – ie the prayer closet.

Yes, there is public corporate prayer, but that is only with interpretations and lead by elders – note Peter as an apostle would be an elder.

Well, I will agree to disagree with you on this point.

And, yes from reading Acts 6 & 7 it is clear that Stephen did NOT speak in tongues. In fact we are told specifically what his sign gifts were, faith, miracle worker, and evangelist ( read Acts 7 ).

Most of what happened is not written in scripture at all. You cannot make this assumption on the basis of omission.

Paul’s example is to speak five words that could be understood vs speaking a lot of words in church that could not be understood.

Another characteristic of pentecostal - charismatic circles I think is displeasing to the Lord is anti-intellectualism. God wants us to worship him in truth, that requires us to use our minds to discern and discover truth. The Lord plainly says, “let us reason together”.

I think there are both private and public uses of tongues, and sometimes those tongues used corporately are not the interpreted kind, but the worshipping kind that extol the Lord. However, I agree with you that there is an anti-intellectualism present. What can you do to help correct this, having been brought into wisdom?

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Good to hear, Amen.

aside: I am in physical thearpy for shoulder joint pain. I have been trying an experimental espoxy joint replacement which is done by imaging and injections. I have a degenerative bone disease among other problems.

I was just wondering how your health issues were, because I had participated in another thread where you mentioned some of your struggles. I have prayed for you and will continue to do so. If you haven’t already, you could put a prayer request in at the prayer intention forum, or I would be happy to do it for you. May God bless you with His healing Mercy. Amen.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Frankly, I would have been overjoyed if someone using the gift of discernment called me out on the carpet for reading my shopping list. I would have been disappointed, if they too understood hebrew, rather then use the gift of discernment.

Now, how do you all understand this text?

Hebrews 2:3-4 (King James Version)
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Some claim that tongues, and the other more spectaular gifts are really “sign” gifts and as such have died out with the apostles.

A Review of the (Nine) Temporary Spiritual Gifts
rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/areview.htm

Cessation of spiritual gifts Intro and various foundational arguments bible.ca/tongues-ceased-perfect-come-intro.htm

google.com/search?hl=en&q=sign+gifts+cessationalism

2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity (Paperback)
by Eddie L. Hyatt (Author)

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Frankly, I would have been overjoyed if someone using the gift of discernment called me out on the carpet for reading my shopping list. I would have been disappointed, if they too understood hebrew, rather then use the gift of discernment.

Now, how do you all understand this text?

Hebrews 2:3-4 (King James Version)
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Some claim that tongues, and the other more spectaular gifts are really “sign” gifts and as such have died out with the apostles.

A Review of the (Nine) Temporary Spiritual Gifts
rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/areview.htm

Cessation of spiritual gifts Intro and various foundational arguments bible.ca/tongues-ceased-perfect-come-intro.htm

google.com/search?hl=en&q=sign+gifts+cessationalism

2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity (Paperback)
by Eddie L. Hyatt (Author)

Please summarize. This sounds like your saying the gift has died out completely.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Please summarize. This sounds like your saying the gift has died out completely.

Some claim that tongues, and the other more spectaular gifts are really “sign” gifts and as such have died out with the apostles.

I am like others before in this thread presenting part of the case for what is known as cessationalism, so we can deal with their arguements.

The first question is for us to discuss the meaning of the Hebrews 2:3-4 text.

So, how do you understand that text?

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Some claim that tongues, and the other more spectaular gifts are really “sign” gifts and as such have died out with the apostles.

I am like others before in this thread presenting part of the case for what is known as cessationalism, so we can deal with their arguements.

The first question is for us to discuss the meaning of the Hebrews 2:3-4 text.

So, how do you understand that text?

The the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given at His discretion.

I also think that I suffer from Rationalism, Scrupulosity, Relativism, Humanism and a lack of Obedience.

I notice this the most when I have a hard time turning to and submitting to the Lord and also when I doubt the plausability of a miracle or gift of the Holy Spirit as being authentic.

 

[dessert]

Frankly, I would have been overjoyed if someone using the gift of discernment called me out on the carpet for reading my shopping list. I would have been disappointed, if they too understood hebrew, rather then use the gift of discernment.

Now, how do you all understand this text?

Hebrews 2:3-4 (King James Version)
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Some claim that tongues, and the other more spectaular gifts are really “sign” gifts and as such have died out with the apostles.

A Review of the (Nine) Temporary Spiritual Gifts
rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/areview.htm

Cessation of spiritual gifts Intro and various foundational arguments bible.ca/tongues-ceased-perfect-come-intro.htm

google.com/search?hl=en&q=sign+gifts+cessationalism

2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity (Paperback)
by Eddie L. Hyatt (Author)

I think the scripture means we are all brothers as Jesus became our spiritual brother and then some and must keep our eye on salvation as the greatest gift.

He used the signs to get our attention but if we continue to look for them to keep our interest and our faith exhorted then we may be disappointed when we are only looking for them and not have our consentration on Him and the prayer of the Church.

Speaking of discernment in my parish many listen to me and keep me accountable as to my actions and are a help and I suppose this is evident of the gift being expressed. In other words you would have been spoken too! I have a ways to go before speaking although I practice here and it is much like my Church here. dessert

 

[happygal]

People with “speaking in tongues” do see things, hear things, do things…supernaturally, and it is the same for Catholics as well as other Christians.

Last week on Thursday, I went to a Healing Service and a mass by a Catholic priests, and there were quite a few non-Catholics attending there.

We all pray Our Father and Glory Be together, but for the non-Catholic folks, they were not comfortable with Hail Mary …which I understand. The main thing - we were under the same roof praising and worshiping God via a Catholic mass.

Hi Water

Yup well explained.

 

[kujo313]

The Bible states that if you speak in an unknown tongue, you edify yourself.
Wikipedia says that there are over 6803 known tongues or languages on the planet. Who’s to say that speaking in Tongues isn’t one of those that Americans haven’t heard but still exist?

It would be cool for some non-spanish speaking person to suddenly praise God in fluent Spanish. However, let God be God. He’s in charge. We just have to believe.

 

[JoeyWarren]

The Bible states that if you speak in an unknown tongue, you edify yourself.
.

The word ‘unknown’ is problematic.

Douay Rheims : He that speaketh in a tongue, edifieth himself: but he that prophesieth, edifieth the church.

KJV : He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

NAB : Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church.

So I went to E-sword and Strongs.

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh2980 in an unknown tongue1100 edifieth3618 himself;1438 but1161 he that prophesieth4395 edifieth3618 the church.1577

notice that “unknown” is shaded. The shaded words are “added words” supposedly for clarification.

So I consorted with the Greek Bible:

o lalwn glwssh eauton oikodomei: o de profhteuwn ekklhsian oikodomei.

There is nothing in the Greek to support the addition of the adjective “unknown”.

Therefore I would have to conclude that the translators inserted words to fit their own personal belief and not of that which of God.

This is one of the many reasons why the KJV is a corrupt translation. IMHO.

 

[kujo313]

The word ‘unknown’ is problematic.

Douay Rheims : He that speaketh in a tongue, edifieth himself: but he that prophesieth, edifieth the church.

KJV : He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

NAB : Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church.

So I went to E-sword and Strongs.

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh2980 in an unknown tongue1100 edifieth3618 himself;1438 but1161 he that prophesieth4395 edifieth3618 the church.1577

notice that “unknown” is shaded. The shaded words are “added words” supposedly for clarification.

So I consorted with the Greek Bible:

o lalwn glwssh eauton oikodomei: o de profhteuwn ekklhsian oikodomei.

There is nothing in the Greek to support the addition of the adjective “unknown”.

Therefore I would have to conclude that the translators inserted words to fit their own personal belief and not of that which of God.

This is one of the many reasons why the KJV is a corrupt translation. IMHO.

Then we have to go back to the “known” languages. “Known” to you? What about the “tongues of angels and tongues of men”?

In all cases that I have seen where I worship, “tongues” within the congregation is followed with an interpretation.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Then we have to go back to the “known” languages. “Known” to you? What about the “tongues of angels and tongues of men”?

I speak Spanish and Italian and French. I speak the tongues of men.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Paul talking about himself doing this. Does he reference anyone else doing this “Speaking with the tongues of Angels”?

In all cases that I have seen where I worship, “tongues” within the congregation is followed with an interpretation.

Never encountered the interpetation during my Pentecostal days. It could be nothing but a rehearsed act. The history of fakes and facades over the last few decades has exposed the truth. The speaking in tongues and the subsequent interpretation could just be a different type of deception like “Faith Healers”.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

How to Test a Spirit

You can discern or test whether or not a spirit is of God by the following three ways:

**1 **Observing what a person does. In Matthew 7:15-20, Jesus explains that false prophets are known by their fruit - by their conduct and actions.

**2 **Observing whether or not a person exalts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and as Lord and Saviour (I Corinthians 12:3).

**3 **By listening to what a person says (I John 4:1-3). Does their confession line up with the truth of God’s Word?