Difference between Catholic "speaking in tongues" as oppose to Pentecostal "speaking of tongues"

[Daniel_Marsh]

I really don’t think any Pentecostals that aren’t Catholic really give this any thought.

You should give a reading to the works of Gorden Fee.

God’s Empowering Presence: The Holy Spirit in the Letters of Paul

Gospel and Spirit, Issues in New Testament Hermeneutics

Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God

christianbook.com/Christian/Books/easy_find?&N=5100&nav_search=1&event=ESRCN&Ne=200900+201400+1000000+10000&Ntt=Gordon%20Fee&D=Gordon%20Fee&action=Search&Nu=product.endeca_rollup&Ntk=keywords&Nao=0

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

To bad that no one is here to give that perspective peacefully from personal experience.

My personal experience in protestant and some catholic servivces.

Complete and utter Chaos, everyone speaking gibberish without any interpretator. And, often when someone gets up to pretend to interpret, their message is perdictable and of no great importance. Like, during “missions week”, you can expect the interpretations to say, “support our missionaires with your wallet”.

There is in such churches, an “in group” and an “out group”. To become part of the “in group” one need only pretend to speak in tongues because there is NO discernment at all. I once had a hindu freind visit a catholic pentecostal praise group and he sang a song of praise to his false gods. you guessed it, the interpretation was no where near what the song meant. Afterwards, he went up to the pastor and said, I am happy to see that you all worship … he named a list of hindu gods ]. This completely caught the pastor off guard, who asked if he may visit him sometime for deeper discussion of this.

I have personally, thrown out well known greek and hebrew phrases in both catholic and protestant services, never once have they gotten the interpretation right, not even close. I even read my shopping list out in hebrew and the interpretation was far off.

In both protestant and catholic services as a newbie, I was herded to a back room to teach us newbies how to pray in tongues. It consisted of “repeat after me”, then gibberish. Interresting enough, both called it, “priming the pump”.

Basically, I view what is happening in pentecostal - charismatic modern groups as being nothing more than group dymatics at work.

However, I have experience “missionary tongues” myself with a third party present at both times. To the observer, we were having a conversation in a foriegn language. In my mind, I was thinking of what to say, and speaking his language. I was hearing him speak his language, but knew exactly what he said and why he said it. In both cases, the Iranian pliots were converted to Christ before they returned home to be myrtared for their faith in christ, after bringing others to christ that is.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

1 Cor 12:6-11
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. "

The tongues spoken of in the reading yesterday are one particular type of tongues used for the purpose of conversion. there are other types, some that may seem like gibberish but are not.

The very word “kinds” refers to human languages, this may not be so clear in english, but is clear in greek and hebrew translations.

Paul is saying that there are various tribal - national languages.

I Cor 14:10 maybe a little clearer.

"There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. "

Here is a translation of I Cor 12:10 that is a little better,

“Another can work miracles. Another can speak what God has revealed. Another can tell the difference between spirits. Another can speak in different kinds of languages. Another can interpret languages.”

Lexicon Results for genos (Strong’s G1085)

Greek for G1085 γένος

Transliteration genos

Pronunciation ge’-nos (Key)

Part of Speech
neuter noun

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) kindred

a) offspring

b) family

c) stock, tribe, nation

1. i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people

d) the aggregate of many individuals of the same nature, kind, sort

Act 18:24 And 1161 a certain 5100 Jew 2453 named 3686 Apollos 625, born 1085 at Alexandria 221, an eloquent 3052 man 435, [and] mighty 5607 1415 in 1722 the scriptures 1124, came 2658 to 1519 Ephesus 2181.

1Cr 12:10 1161 To another 243 the working 1755 of miracles 1411; 1161 to another 243 prophecy 4394; 1161 to another 243 discerning 1253 of spirits 4151; 1161 to another 2087 [divers] kinds 1085 of tongues 1100; 1161 to another 243 the interpretation 2058 of tongues 1100:

1Cr 12:28 And 2532 3739 God 2316 hath set 5087 some 3303 in 1722 the church 1577, first 4412 apostles 652, secondarily 1208 prophets 4396, thirdly 5154 teachers 1320, after that 1899 miracles 1411, then 1534 gifts 5486 of healings 2386, helps 484, governments 2941, diversities 1085 of tongues 1100.

1Cr 14:10 1487 There are 2076 , it may be 5177 , so many 5118 kinds 1085 of voices 5456 in 1722 the world 2889, and 2532 none of them 3762 [is] without signification 880 846.

2Cr 11:26 [In] journeyings 3597 often 4178, [in] perils 2794 of waters 4215, [in] perils 2794 of robbers 3027, [in] perils 2794 by 1537 [mine own] countrymen 1085, [in] perils 2794 by 1537 the heathen 1484, [in] perils 2794 in 1722 the city 4172, [in] perils 2794 in 1722 the wilderness 2047, [in] perils 2794 in 1722 the sea 2281, [in] perils 2794 among 1722 false brethren 5569;

Gal 1:14 And 2532 profited 4298 in 1722 the Jews’ religion 2454 above 5228 many 4183 my equals 4915 in 1722 mine own 3450 nation 1085, being 5225 more exceedingly 4056 zealous 2207 of the traditions 3862 of my 3450 fathers 3967.

Phl 3:5 Circumcised 4061 the eighth 3637 day, of 1537 the stock 1085 of Israel 2474, [of] the tribe 5443 of Benjamin 958, an Hebrew 1445 of 1537 the Hebrews 1445; as touching 2596 the law 3551, a Pharisee 5330;

 

[KatholikosMercy]

My personal experience in protestant and some catholic servivces.

Complete and utter Chaos, everyone speaking gibberish without any interpretator. And, often when someone gets up to pretend to interpret, their message is perdictable and of no great importance. Like, during “missions week”, you can expect the interpretations to say, “support our missionaires with your wallet”.

There is in such churches, an “in group” and an “out group”. To become part of the “in group” one need only pretend to speak in tongues because there is NO discernment at all. I once had a hindu freind visit a catholic pentecostal praise group and he sang a song of praise to his false gods. you guessed it, the interpretation was no where near what the song meant. Afterwards, he went up to the pastor and said, I am happy to see that you all worship … he named a list of hindu gods ]. This completely caught the pastor off guard, who asked if he may visit him sometime for deeper discussion of this.

I have personally, thrown out well known greek and hebrew phrases in both catholic and protestant services, never once have they gotten the interpretation right, not even close. I even read my shopping list out in hebrew and the interpretation was far off.

In both protestant and catholic services as a newbie, I was herded to a back room to teach us newbies how to pray in tongues. It consisted of “repeat after me”, then gibberish. Interresting enough, both called it, “priming the pump”.

Basically, I view what is happening in pentecostal - charismatic modern groups as being nothing more than group dymatics at work.

However, I have experience “missionary tongues” myself with a third party present at both times. To the observer, we were having a conversation in a foriegn language. In my mind, I was thinking of what to say, and speaking his language. I was hearing him speak his language, but knew exactly what he said and why he said it. In both cases, the Iranian pliots were converted to Christ before they returned home to be myrtared for their faith in christ, after bringing others to christ that is.

Your honesty is refreshing. The mention of litanies as prayed in the upper room at the first Pentecost at a charismatic prayer meeting works wonders.

 

[PauloFreire2]

I liken tongues to snake-handling – nutty and superstitious.

 

[truthnlight]

Men did not initiate this gift, God did! You can’t show me one place in the Bible where a Christian decided to speak in tongues. Rather, it was always initiated by God at spontaneous times of God’s choosing.

The gift was for the purpose of soulwinning. Thousands of people were saved at Pentecost (Acts 2:41). The ridiculous practice of speaking in the Charismatic’s mumbo-jumbo They’ve created a form of entertainment that attracts carnally-minded people. Proof of this is in the Bible itself. Do you realize that the ONLY church in the New Testament to which Paul ever wrote to speak about tongues was the church at Corinth … THE CARNAL CHURCH! Paul stated in 1st Corinthians 3:1-3, “And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal…” Pentecostals meet in their religious buildings and act like crazy idiots–falling on the floor, barking, howling, babbling, etc. This is carnal, and not in any way related to the gift of tongues at Pentecost which was used to relay the Gospel to lost sinners. When Abraham was old, he sent his eldest servant, Eleazar, back to his native land to find a Christian wife for Isaac. Eleazar took with him, as gifts, many expensive items and ten camels, and set out for Mesopotamia. Notice that the PURPOSE of the the “gifts” was to bring back a BRIDE for Isaac. If Eleazar would have come back without the bride, he would have failed. This is a good illustration of how foolish Charismatics are today. Pentecostals make the gifts an END in themselves. Do you think Abraham would have been pleased if Eleazar gave all the gifts away, but came back WITHOUT the bride? Abraham would have been very angry. This is what the Charismatics are doing today. Instead of focusing on the main issue, which is SOULWINNING; they have focused on the gifts.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I liken tongues to snake-handling – nutty and superstitious.

Romans 8:26 doesn’t give me the impression that it is nutty and superstitious.

“Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings.”

 

[guanophore]

Thanks for the discription. Please forgive my doubts but I was wondering if you could describe if you ever recieved confirmations of the half dozen times you saw interpretations. How did you test the Spirits?

There are many standards for discernment. First of all, any prophetic message will never contradict scripture or church teaching. secondly scripture clearly states that any such messages are intended to edify. Thirdly, the speaker is always in control of himself, so if there are any manifestations to the contrary, it is from somewhere else.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Romans 8:26 doesn’t give me the impression that it is nutty and superstitious.

“Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings.”

I think it is correct to believe it is a rare gift though. Don’t you?

I base that assumption on a passage from one of Pauls epistles stating the gift will pass away.

Which seems contrary to throngs of Pentecostals uttering rehersed and prideful immitations of the gift.

I found post #42 particularly enlightening.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Dniel Marsh posted:

Daniel my man, oh Daniel, man of little faith. The discerning spirits are called: ‘Tesco’, ‘Asda’, ‘Morrisons’, 'Sainsbury’s

I’ve never heard these names, can you elaborate please?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I liken tongues to snake-handling – nutty and superstitious.

Which kind of tongues? All kinds, or just the mostly misinterpreted gibberish at Pentecostal churches?

 

[Sixtus]

Water posted:

What if it was a true gift from God, and because of how you tested, God did not want to reveil the truth to you?

Actually, I enjoy a good banter, but have to agree with Water.

We simply do not know if it is a manifestation created in the mind and fanciful imaginations of the speaker or whether it is in fact something from the Holy Spirit.

I prefer to think of tongues as tangible language where the Holy Spirit speaks through the speaker to a definable audience. But of the other kind of tongues, actually hold it in respect.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Daniel my man, oh Daniel, man of little faith. The discerning spirits are called: ‘Tesco’, ‘Asda’, ‘Morrisons’, 'Sainsbury’s

“little faith”, that just shows how little you know. Demonization or labeling those who disagree with you only shows me that you are involved with a group who practices spiritual abuse.

The practice of labeling or demonization
spiritualabuse.org/hair/labels.html

spiritualabuse.org/

For the interrest of ex-UPC
p212.ezboard.com/bexpentecostalforums

 

[guanophore]

I think it is correct to believe it is a rare gift though. Don’t you?

No, I think that this gift is intended for all believers, until such time as we are taken to heaven, and can worship like the angels. It is meant to tide us over through this Valley of Tears.

1 Cor 14:5
5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified."

Why would Paul want everyone to use the gift, if everyone did not have it?

I base that assumption on a passage from one of Pauls epistles stating the gift will pass away.

Which seems contrary to throngs of Pentecostals uttering rehersed and prideful immitations of the gift.

Yes, Paul wrote that the gifts would cease, but only when they are no longer needed. He made it clear that the purpose of the charismatic gifts is for the building up of the body of Christ. We need them until that Body is no longer sojourning here on earth.

1 Cor 13:8-11
8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; 10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away."

Many Protestants teach that the gifts are not authentic or valid because they think the Bible is perfect. Since we have scripture, we don’t need gifts any more. But Catholics know that the Perfect One is Christ.

I think one reason these gifts leaked out into the Pentecostal Church is the failure of Catholics to recognize, value, and use them properly. The same thing happened with the scripture. God’s gifts will pour forth, and accomplish the purpose for which they are intended. If those for whom they are intended refuse, they will be given to others.

My personal experience in protestant and some catholic servivces.

Complete and utter Chaos, everyone speaking gibberish without any interpretator. And, often when someone gets up to pretend to interpret, their message is perdictable and of no great importance. Like, during “missions week”, you can expect the interpretations to say, “support our missionaires with your wallet”.

This is typical of manifestations of the Gifts of the Spirit when they are not used under proper authority and obedience. The same thing happens with the wrong use of scripture. Once the believer departs from God’s appointed authority through the apostolic succession and the teaching of the magesterium, chaos will be the result.

There is in such churches, an “in group” and an “out group”. To become part of the “in group” one need only pretend to speak in tongues because there is NO discernment at all. I once had a hindu freind visit a catholic pentecostal praise group and he sang a song of praise to his false gods. you guessed it, the interpretation was no where near what the song meant. Afterwards, he went up to the pastor and said, I am happy to see that you all worship … he named a list of hindu gods ]. This completely caught the pastor off guard, who asked if he may visit him sometime for deeper discussion of this.

This is a sad state of affairs, and I have experienced similar. There is a lot of pressure to “speak in tongues” as a sign that one is a believer. This is based on the NT passages that all the first believers spoke in tongues.

have personally, thrown out well known greek and hebrew phrases in both catholic and protestant services, never once have they gotten the interpretation right, not even close. I even read my shopping list out in hebrew and the interpretation was far off.

I don’t see how adding fraud to more fraud helps anything!

In both protestant and catholic services as a newbie, I was herded to a back room to teach us newbies how to pray in tongues. It consisted of “repeat after me”, then gibberish. Interresting enough, both called it, “priming the pump”.

I would caution you not to degrade the gift of God, spoken of in the Holy Scriptures, and taught by Holy Mother Church. The fact that you have not personally experienced this gift is regrettable, and that you have experienced fraudulence with it deplorable. But the same misuse can be done with the scripture in the wrong hands. It does not devalue the gift itself.

Basically, I view what is happening in pentecostal - charismatic modern groups as being nothing more than group dymatics at work.

This statement is way of basically saying that the HS is not powerful enough to fulfill the purpose for which He was sent.

 

[DL82]

When I was a protestant, I remember one Charismatic (but not Pentecostal) friend of mine saying that in his church, if there was someone who had a prayer in tongues, and it was genuine and from the Lord, there would always be someone else in church who would be given the gift of interpretation, to translate the tongue to the rest of the congregation. This sounds accurate, and similar to the kind of praying in tongues talked about by St Paul.

On the other hand, some Pentecostal churches, e.g. the Assemblies of God, teach that speaking in tongues is the single definitive mark of being born again. People in those churches all speak in tongues at the same time, which is more like mass hysteria, and many former Pentecostals will openly admit that they were faking it.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

OK, what do you all think of these testimonies?

The spirit came upon Brother sherman in mighty power, and he opened his mouth in an unknown tongue, to the great surprise and joy of all, … being the first known to have spoken in the gift of tongues by the power of God in this dispensation.   Would-be, 121

saintswithouthalos.com/n/tongues.phtml

And then the great glory of God was manifested to this weak but trusting girl. She was enveloped as with a flame, and, unable longer to retain her seat, she arose and her mouth was filled with the praises of God and His glory. The spirit of tongues was upon her, and she was clothed in a shining light, so bright that all present saw it with great distinctness above the light of the fire and the candles.

lofthouse.com/USA/Utah/washington/history/homespun.html

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I liken tongues to snake-handling – nutty and superstitious.

Here is what they shall take up snakes really means, it is not purposely going out of one’s way to handle snakes.

Acts 28
1Once safely on shore, we found out that the island was called Malta. 2The islanders showed us unusual kindness. They built a fire and welcomed us all because it was raining and cold. 3Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. 4When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, Justice has not allowed him to live.” 5But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects. 6The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Romans 8:26 doesn’t give me the impression that it is nutty and superstitious.

“Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings.”

In context, Romans 8:26 is NOT about speaking in tongues, that is just an example of poor pentecostal exegesis. In context, the Holy Spirit is praying directly to the Father without going through a human host.

His concern about a serious lack of the fruit of the spirit among pentecostals - charismatics is a vaild concern.

Tell me, exactly what benefit does one gain from God by having their body burned or being burned to death?

1 Corinthians 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

There are many standards for discernment. First of all, any prophetic message will never contradict scripture or church teaching. secondly scripture clearly states that any such messages are intended to edify. Thirdly, the speaker is always in control of himself, so if there are any manifestations to the contrary, it is from somewhere else.

Amen

well said

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I’ve never heard these names, can you elaborate please?

The spiritual gift of discerning of spriits occurs in one’s spirit, an example of this gift in practice is in Acts 16

16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

17The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us a way of salvation.

18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

The book of First John also gives some tests on testing the spirits of others,

1 John 2:18
Warning Against Antichrists ] Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

)
2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.