Difference Between Eastern Churches on Papal Authority and Anglican Churches

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I am not really sure I fully understand the distinction and I would really like to…I don’t mean in terms of practices. I know the Eastern churches are more similar to the Catholic Church in many ways than the Anglican Church is…but isn’t their position on papal authority the same? Also, why is Anglican apostolic succession broken but Eastern apostolic succession not broken?

I am not Anglican and I am not part of an Eastern Church, but I am Catholic and would like to know the difference…also, if someone had actual Church writings on this, that would be great too!
 
I am not really sure I fully understand the distinction and I would really like to…I don’t mean in terms of practices. I know the Eastern churches are more similar to the Catholic Church in many ways than the Anglican Church is…but isn’t their position on papal authority the same? Also, why is Anglican apostolic succession broken but Eastern apostolic succession not broken?

I am not Anglican and I am not part of an Eastern Church, but I am Catholic and would like to know the difference…also, if someone had actual Church writings on this, that would be great too!
It’s complicated.

I can’t answer your questions in full but I can make a few comments. I will try to give the skinny on this without getting too detailed, so naturally the story is simplified and that means anyone who wants to blow a hole in this explanation will have a nice opportunity to do so. 🙂

-1- The Anglican church was once under the authority of the Pope. They reject it now (perhaps for good reasons, perhaps not) but they owe much to that earlier relationship. In a sense it is a renegade province of the Roman Catholic church (sort of like Taiwan in relation to China and Ulster in relation to Eire).

While on the other hand the Pope never controlled the eastern churches, and therefore they have never ‘disobeyed’ the Pope nor had a reason to, since he was not their boss in the first place. Thus for Orthodox the position is that the Pope has no right of jurisdiction because it can be shown he never had any in the past, this is an entirely different argument.

Another way of putting it is that the Anglicans might say the Pope should not have had that kind of power over Catholic churches because it is an abuse of the Petrine office which they reject. For Orthodox the argument might be that the power and the abuse never existed for them in the past and they don’t want to start any of that now at this late date.

-2- Based on Roman Catholic theory of Apostolic succession, a church can have true bishops even if they are not in communion with Rome and even if they believe and teach heresy. (This is how the phenomena of vagante bishops has been propagated.) However Anglican orders (and therefore the confected Eucharist) are not considered valid because for a long time (after the reign of Elizabeth I) the men who were appointed Anglican bishops did not believe they were passing on a sacramental order, thus their ordinations were not sacramental since they did not intend to impart a sacrament and had no faith in it. Some later Anglican priests (and bishops) did want to believe in the sacramental nature of the Eucharist and their ordinations but they couldn’t get it from someone who hasn’t got it to give. Sort of like trying to get milk from a bull.

However the Orthodox do believe in the sacramental nature of Holy Orders and the Eucharist, and always intended to pass this along, so according to Roman Catholic theory they have never had a break in this practice and their bishops and priests and sacraments are continually valid.

-3- Orthodox do not have such a theory as the Roman Catholic church on Apostolic succession, in the strictest sense a bishop now outside of the church is deposed and not a bishop even if he thinks he is or would like to claim he is. That means that technically the Orthodox view Roman Catholic and Anglican orders in a similar (though not exactly the same) way.
 
It’s complicated.

I can’t answer your questions in full but I can make a few comments. I will try to give the skinny on this without getting too detailed, so naturally the story is simplified and that means anyone who wants to blow a hole in this explanation will have a nice opportunity to do so. 🙂

-1- The Anglican church was once under the authority of the Pope. They reject it now (perhaps for good reasons, perhaps not) but they owe much to that earlier relationship. In a sense it is a renegade province of the Roman Catholic church (sort of like Taiwan in relation to China and Ulster in relation to Eire).

While on the other hand the Pope never controlled the eastern churches, and therefore they have never ‘disobeyed’ the Pope nor had a reason to, since he was not their boss in the first place. Thus for Orthodox the position is that the Pope has no right of jurisdiction because it can be shown he never had any in the past, this is an entirely different argument.

Another way of putting it is that the Anglicans might say the Pope should not have had that kind of power over Catholic churches because it is an abuse of the Petrine office which they reject. For Orthodox the argument might be that the power and the abuse never existed for them in the past and they don’t want to start any of that now at this late date.

-2- Based on Roman Catholic theory of Apostolic succession, a church can have true bishops even if they are not in communion with Rome and even if they believe and teach heresy. (This is how the phenomena of vagante bishops has been propagated.) However Anglican orders (and therefore the confected Eucharist) are not considered valid because for a long time (after the reign of Elizabeth I) the men who were appointed Anglican bishops did not believe they were passing on a sacramental order, thus their ordinations were not sacramental since they did not intend to impart a sacrament and had no faith in it. Some later Anglican priests (and bishops) did want to believe in the sacramental nature of the Eucharist and their ordinations but they couldn’t get it from someone who hasn’t got it to give. Sort of like trying to get milk from a bull.

However the Orthodox do believe in the sacramental nature of Holy Orders and the Eucharist, and always intended to pass this along, so according to Roman Catholic theory they have never had a break in this practice and their bishops and priests and sacraments are continually valid.

-3- Orthodox do not have such a theory as the Roman Catholic church on Apostolic succession, in the strictest sense a bishop now outside of the church is deposed and not a bishop even if he thinks he is or would like to claim he is. That means that technically the Orthodox view Roman Catholic and Anglican orders in a similar (though not exactly the same) way.
Excellent response and really easy to understand. I GREATLY appreciate the help. It makes perfect sense to me now. I am still a little confused about the last paragraph, however (3). Can you explain that a little more or using different language?

I am not sure I understand what you mean by “…in the strictest sense a bishop now outside of the church is deposed and not a bishop even if he thinks he is or would like to claim he is. That means that technically the Orthodox view Roman Catholic and Anglican orders in a similar (though not exactly the same) way.”

Who is a bishop “outside the church?” and what does that whole paragraph refer to? Do Orthodox believe Anglicans have the right to have their own system of authority outside of the Church?
 
I am not really sure I fully understand the distinction and I would really like to…I don’t mean in terms of practices. I know the Eastern churches are more similar to the Catholic Church in many ways than the Anglican Church is…but isn’t their position on papal authority the same? Also, why is Anglican apostolic succession broken but Eastern apostolic succession not broken?

I am not Anglican and I am not part of an Eastern Church, but I am Catholic and would like to know the difference…also, if someone had actual Church writings on this, that would be great too!
Well, the 2 big differences between Eastern Catholics and Anglicans are
  1. one is Eastern and one is Western
  2. the Eastern Catholics are in full communion with Rome.
However, with regard to (2) it should be pointed out that *some *Anglicans have recently come (or are in the process of coming) into communion with Rome,in response to Pope Benedict’s offer in Anglicanorum Coetibus. There’s much discussion about whether (or to what extent) the new “Ordinariates” will be similar to Eastern Catholic Churches.

Of course, if you’re talking about Anglicans in general, it should be noted that there’s a wide variety. (For example, some Anglican provinces ordain women.)
 
Excellent response and really easy to understand. I GREATLY appreciate the help. It makes perfect sense to me now. I am still a little confused about the last paragraph, however (3). Can you explain that a little more or using different language?

I am not sure I understand what you mean by “…in the strictest sense a bishop now outside of the church is deposed and not a bishop even if he thinks he is or would like to claim he is. That means that technically the Orthodox view Roman Catholic and Anglican orders in a similar (though not exactly the same) way.”

Who is a bishop “outside the church?” and what does that whole paragraph refer to? Do Orthodox believe Anglicans have the right to have their own system of authority outside of the Church?
If you mean this in the sense of religious freedom (religious liberty) then I think the answer is yes. But I’m guessing you mean it in some other sense?

Also, at the risk of stating the obvious, keep in mind that Hesychios isn’t Catholic but Orthodox. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that.)
 
I am not really sure I fully understand the distinction and I would really like to…I don’t mean in terms of practices. I know the Eastern churches are more similar to the Catholic Church in many ways than the Anglican Church is…but isn’t their position on papal authority the same? Also, why is Anglican apostolic succession broken but Eastern apostolic succession not broken?

I am not Anglican and I am not part of an Eastern Church, but I am Catholic and would like to know the difference…also, if someone had actual Church writings on this, that would be great too!
The problem is the same, the atitudes complletely different.
Both do not want to obey the Pope and that is a big hurdle.
But Orthodox kept traditions as Anglicans fought against them.
 
Sorry, I just realized that I misread your original question: I thought you were asking about similarities and differences between Eastern Catholics and Anglicans.
 
Sorry, I just realized that I misread your original question: I thought you were asking about similarities and differences between Eastern Catholics and Anglicans.
What you wrote was actually very helpful so don’t be sorry! I appreciate it…it’s all connected.
 
I am not sure I understand what you mean by “…in the strictest sense a bishop now outside of the church is deposed and not a bishop even if he thinks he is or would like to claim he is. That means that technically the Orthodox view Roman Catholic and Anglican orders in a similar (though not exactly the same) way.”
The Orthodox don’t subscribe to either the Two Lung theory or Branch Theory. From their p.o.v. both Catholics and Anglicans are outside of the church.
 
I will go at it from the other side, that of an Ex-Episcopalian/Anglican.

About the only thing that keeps them together is the use of the Book Of Common Prayer, otherwise they are all over the place theologically.

Some believe that Apostolic Succesion are vital to the very existence of the church, some beleive that it’s good but not absolutely neccesary.

The first group seems be be losing out at the moment, the Episcopal Church is now in communion with chruches with no AS or bishops like the Methodists, UCC, and the more liberal Lutherans. In the diocese of North West Texas, I know of two Lutherans who are now serving in Episcopal Churches with out episcopal (by bishops) ordination.

There is one Episcopal break off group that openly accepts any cleric fromanydenomination as priests.

To me the Episcopal/Anglican church is a can of worms better left unopened.
 
The problem is the same, the atitudes complletely different.
No, it is not the same.
Both do not want to obey the Pope and that is a big hurdle.
Since there is nothing to obey, it would not be a problem unless you choose to make it one.

We have our own synods, with Metropolitans and Patriarchs as our spiritual fathers. We don’t need yours but thanks anyway.
 
I will go at it from the other side, that of an Ex-Episcopalian/Anglican.

About the only thing that keeps them together is the use of the Book Of Common Prayer, otherwise they are all over the place theologically.

Some believe that Apostolic Succesion are vital to the very existence of the church, some beleive that it’s good but not absolutely neccesary.

The first group seems be be losing out at the moment, the Episcopal Church is now in communion with chruches with no AS or bishops like the Methodists, UCC, and the more liberal Lutherans. In the diocese of North West Texas, I know of two Lutherans who are now serving in Episcopal Churches with out episcopal (by bishops) ordination.

There is one Episcopal break off group that openly accepts any cleric fromanydenomination as priests.

To me the Episcopal/Anglican church is a can of worms better left unopened.
You may very well be right about that.
 
I will go at it from the other side, that of an Ex-Episcopalian/Anglican.

About the only thing that keeps them together is the use of the Book Of Common Prayer, otherwise they are all over the place theologically.

Some believe that Apostolic Succesion are vital to the very existence of the church, some beleive that it’s good but not absolutely neccesary.

The first group seems be be losing out at the moment, the Episcopal Church is now in communion with chruches with no AS or bishops like the Methodists, UCC, and the more liberal Lutherans. In the diocese of North West Texas, I know of two Lutherans who are now serving in Episcopal Churches with out episcopal (by bishops) ordination.

There is one Episcopal break off group that openly accepts any cleric fromanydenomination as priests.

To me the Episcopal/Anglican church is a can of worms better left unopened.
I largely agree with what you’re saying here; but to be fair, the EC-USA isn’t exactly typical of the Anglican Communion. In fact, the EC-USA and the Anglican Church of Canada (the 2 ultra-liberal provinces of the Anglican Communion) together are only about 5 or 6 percent of all Anglicans.
 
I largely agree with what you’re saying here; but to be fair, the EC-USA isn’t exactly typical of the Anglican Communion. In fact, the EC-USA and the Anglican Church of Canada (the 2 ultra-liberal provinces of the Anglican Communion) together are only about 5 or 6 percent of all Anglicans.
True enough, but ECUSA and ACC are the only two churches on this continent that are members of the Anglican Communion liberal or not.

I am very much aware of the schismatic churches going by Anglican, they are part of the popular movement to the right. I am a moderate however.

But FWIW all Anglicans are really in schism, liberal or conservative really makes no difference.
 
True enough, but ECUSA and ACC are the only two churches on this continent that are members of the Anglican Communion liberal or not.
Depends how you mean that. I know a number of Parishes have joined communion with the Church of Nigeria and the Church of the Southern Cone. They are Conservative parishes within both North America and the Anglican Communion.

But generally, as a former Anglican myself, I agree with your assessment.
 
Depends how you mean that. I know a number of Parishes have joined communion with the Church of Nigeria and the Church of the Southern Cone. They are Conservative parishes within both North America and the Anglican Communion.
True. I guess andrewstx meant that ECUSA and ACC are the only two churches on this continent that are official provinces of the Anglican Communion
 
True. I guess andrewstx meant that ECUSA and ACC are the only two churches on this continent that are official provinces of the Anglican Communion
Are they even official anymore? Last I heard, the Episcopalians had been (threatened to be) kicked out of the Anglican Communion.
 
Are they even official anymore? Last I heard, the Episcopalians had been (threatened to be) kicked out of the Anglican Communion.
They and the ACC have been threatened with that for quite a few years. Sadly I don’t think the Communion has the guts.
 
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