Difference between Mass in Poland and England

[Lucius_Marius]

Greeting brothers and sisters,

I’d like to share with you an observation I’ve made about the biggest difference between Mass in Poland (and Polish churches in England) and Mass in English Catholic churches.

It’s this:

When it comes to communion, in Polish churches there’s a large number of people who stay in the pews and do not recieve (maybe 30% on average), whilst in the churches I went to in England it seems that *everyone * recieves the communion.

The logical question is thus:

Are Poles especially sinful?
Are English people especially pious?

Or

Are Poles more educated about the requirements needed to recieve the communion? (i.e. not living in major sin)

I truly don’t know, and I wish someone could help me answer the question.

Thank you

 

[Ontheway]

Greeting brothers and sisters,

I’d like to share with you an observation I’ve made about the biggest difference between Mass in Poland (and Polish churches in England) and Mass in English Catholic churches.

It’s this:

When it comes to communion, in Polish churches there’s a large number of people who stay in the pews and do not recieve (maybe 30% on average), whilst in the churches I went to in England it seems that *everyone * recieves the communion.

The logical question is thus:

Are Poles especially sinful?
Are English people especially pious?

Or

Are Poles more educated about the requirements needed to recieve the communion? (i.e. not living in major sin)

I truly don’t know, and I wish someone could help me answer the question.

Thank you

You will see similar behaviour in churches of other cultures. In America absolutely everyone goes to receive the Holy Communion every single Sunday. There are no exceptions, unless you attend a mass for Latin Americans, for example. There you will see people remaining in pews.

We believe that it is necessary to confess before receiving. It is an “inconvenient” requirement.

Those who stay in their pew on Sudnay stll believe that there is such a thing as sin and the need to confess it before going to communion. But that whole concept has all but disappeared in this culture.

 

[Lucius_Marius]

Hmm… yes, but why does it matter what people believe?

Am I out-dated in my belief that it is a grave sin to receive Communion whilst living in sin? Surely it’s not up to individual to decide the requirement to take part in Holy Communion?

The confessionals in the English churches are empty when I go to confession, but full when I go to confession in Polish churches… shouldn’t the priest be worried when no one goes to confession yet everyone receives Holy Communion?

Forgive my ignorance, for I only know what I’ve been taught in catechism classes in my childhood, and only now started to learn more.

 

[RPRPsych]

Am I out-dated in my belief that it is a grave sin to receive Communion whilst living in sin? Surely it’s not up to individual to decide the requirement to take part in Holy Communion?

No, you’re not out-dated; your view is the time-honoured, orthodox one.

However, due to poor catechesis and an insistence by some that mortal sins are very difficult to commit, many people view themselves as “doing fine” and receive Communion regardless of what they may be up to. This is a dangerous thing to do, unless it is done out of perfect ignorance.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

You will see similar behaviour in churches of other cultures. **In America absolutely everyone goes to receive the Holy Communion every single Sunday. There are no exceptions, unless you attend a mass for Latin Americans, for example. There you will see people remaining in pews.
**
We believe that it is necessary to confess before receiving. It is an “inconvenient” requirement.

Those who stay in their pew on Sudnay stll believe that there is such a thing as sin and the need to confess it before going to communion. But that whole concept has all but disappeared in this culture.

This is NOT TRUE. It depends on the church. Please do not make such sweeping statements when they are very false.

Some churches urge even non-Catholics to go through the communion line and get a blessing - this is not in the GIRM but has been done for years. Those people should not go up but in some churches, most people do go up and get at least a blessing.

 

[michaelmas]

Another thought is Poland was suppressed for 40+ years by communism and they are a much older faith then America meaning they were Catholic hundreds of years longer then America. Now that Poland is free to worship they are picking up where they were 40 years ago?

That is my thought.

As for England, their history is littered with revolt against the church which in my opinion change the views of the faithful and their leaders.

 

[Lucius_Marius]

Poland converted to Catholicism in 966… but I still don’t understand how such disparity between the practice can exist when Catholicism is so clearly defined, and is not up to individual interpretation.

And surely it is the priest’s duty to educate his congregation? I mean, if I - without much experience in faith - can see that something is wrong, surely the priest with all his training should be aware that the congregation needs to be educated on this most serious issue?

 

[Seamus_L]

Without making a blanket statement I know of many churches in my Archdiocese, where very few people go to confession, and yet nearly everyone goes to Communion.

 

[triumphguy]

Perhaps: in a Catholic country where more people go to mass, even when in a state of sin maybe a smaller percentage go to communion.

In a protestant/atheist country where a tiny minority go to mass, maybe the ones who do go are more faithful to their faith - why bother going at all if in a state of sin?

 

[triumphguy]

Another thought is Poland was suppressed for 40+ years by communism and they are a much older faith then America meaning they were Catholic hundreds of years longer then America. Now that Poland is free to worship they are picking up where they were 40 years ago?

That is my thought.

As for England, their history is littered with revolt against the church which in my opinion change the views of the faithful and their leaders.

Yes - Catholics in England were persecuted and martyred for their faith. It tends to toughen you up.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Without making a blanket statement I know of many churches in my Archdiocese, where very few people go to confession, and yet nearly everyone goes to Communion.

On the other hand, at my church and many others in MY diocese, the lines for confession are long and people do stay in the pews for whatever reasons.

It’s really not our business to speculate about people taking communion, I am concerned with my own readiness to receive and I haven’t got time to speculate about everyone else in the line to receive.

 

[Lucius_Marius]

In a protestant/atheist country where a tiny minority go to mass, maybe the ones who do go are more faithful to their faith - why bother going at all if in a state of sin?

That is an interesting point. Indeed, I have considered that maybe the people I see in the church are more faithful, because to go to mass in their country is ‘counter-cultural’ in a way…

But I’m not convinced fully by this, because I don’t see clear reverence and humility for the Sacrament of Communion… but I know that that’s quite a risky statement to make.

 

[triumphguy]

That is an interesting point. Indeed, I have considered that maybe the people I see in the church are more faithful, because to go to mass in their country is ‘counter-cultural’ in a way…

But I’m not convinced fully by this, because I don’t see clear reverence and humility for the Sacrament of Communion… but I know that that’s quite a risky statement to make.

Yes it is.

It’s better to “err” in thinking that "maybe the people I see in the church are more faithful, because to go to mass in their country is ‘counter-cultural’ in a way… "

 

[Monte_RCMS]

The answer to the question is very controversial.

Prior to Vatican II, it was the normal practice for people to ONLY receive Holy Communion if they were in the state of grace and if they had met the requirements for fasting before Communion. PEOPLE TOOK THESE OBLIGATIONS VERY, VERY SERIOUSLY.

Normally people who might not be in the state of grace would remain in the pews … and often people went up for Communion separately, with husband watching the kids while the wife went and then when the wife returned, she would watch the kids while the husband went up for Holy Communion.

People received Holy Communion by kneeling at the altar rail.

Just one example.

If a couple was using birth control, they might remain in the pew to avoid a sacrilege.

After Vatican II, people were ordered to received Holy Communion in an orderly manner, and while standing; the altar rails were removed.

And they went up to Holy Communion one pew at a time. With the ushers “escorting” them …

To avoid embarrassment, many people who were not in a state of grace either stayed home or received Holy Communion while not in a state of grace.

The number of people attending Mass dropped sharply.

The response was to spread the Masses out with more time in between.

Prior to that, it was normal for each parish to have a Mass on the hour, every hour all Sunday morning, and ofter extra Masses were offered in the parish hall or basement on the half-hour.

 

[GangGreen]

I probably abstain from receiving more than I do receive. I can’t get to confession every week and I know I’m no saint (I’m working on it though ), so if I feel that I committed any mortal sin no matter how small it may seem, I abstain.

In a way, I wish that they would extend the fast. Right now it’s ridiculous that you can pretty much eat a meal before Mass and still receive Communion. The rule is one hour beforehand. Therefore, if you finish your meal 15 minutes before Mass (at least where I am, Communion usually happens between 10 and 15 minutes before the end of Mass), you’re in good shape. It’s pointless. At the very least make it one hour prior to the beginning of Mass. I’m not sure why the old three hour rule was so bad? I can understand the no food from midnight thing being a little overboard, but three hours? Is that so bad? If the fast was longer then more people would abstain and less people would feel embarrassed for doing so.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I agree that the whole concept of “Communion by pew” is a very horrible one.

 

[GWright]

Greeting brothers and sisters,
The logical question is thus:

Are Poles especially sinful?
Are English people especially pious?

Or

Are Poles more educated about the requirements needed to recieve the communion? (i.e. not living in major sin)

I truly don’t know, and I wish someone could help me answer the question.

Thank you

Hi Lucius.

I am from Scotland, but much of what is true in Scotland is also true in England.

The answer to your Q is:

Polish people are more educated about the requirements for communion and additionally are more devout / more faithful to their religion.

Most Poles are “proper” Catholics, devout and dedicated, but many (not all) people in the UK (Scotland and England) are very lukewarm, “easy-osy”, Catholics.

The reason for this is that Poland has always been a fiercely and proudly Catholic nation - even today Poland is strongly Catholic. Its a major part of the identity of the Polish nation.

In contrast, the UK underwent the reformation, leaving only a small Catholic minority (today we are about 10% of the population). Naturally then, this minority has - over years - been affected by the mainstream Protestant culture, in terms of a general slackening of interest in religion, being very blase about religion etc etc.

I also think catechesis in Poland is much better - and so more effective - than in the UK. My catechesis was so poor / bland / forgettable that I knew nothing of the faith and left as soon as I could (16). When I returned in my late 20s, and started to take it seriously for the first time ever, I was shocked at my massive level of ignorance about Catholicism.

Anyway the Poles are brilliant - I hope lots more come to live in the UK

Long Live Poland!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I probably abstain from receiving more than I do receive. I can’t get to confession every week and I know I’m no saint (I’m working on it though ), so if I feel that I committed any mortal sin no matter how small it may seem, I abstain.

In a way, I wish that they would extend the fast. Right now it’s ridiculous that you can pretty much eat a meal before Mass and still receive Communion. The rule is one hour beforehand. Therefore, if you finish your meal 15 minutes before Mass (at least where I am, Communion usually happens between 10 and 15 minutes before the end of Mass), you’re in good shape. It’s pointless. At the very least make it one hour prior to the beginning of Mass. I’m not sure why the old three hour rule was so bad? I can understand the no food from midnight thing being a little overboard, but three hours? Is that so bad? If the fast was longer then more people would abstain and less people would feel embarrassed for doing so.

I urge you NOT to abstain if you are not in mortal sin. It sounds as though you might be scrupulous and you need the guidance of a good confessor/spiritual director to help you form your conscience about this properly. The Eucharist can give you spiritual strength and you should not deprive yourself of this grace unnecessarily.

I also do not believe that a 3 hour fast would increase piety in the pews. I think most people would just do as they have been. That is not the problem, it is the poor catechesis and lack of respect that a lot of Catholics have experienced over the last 20-30 years.

 

[TimothyH]

The logical question is thus:

Are Poles especially sinful?
Are English people especially pious?

Or

Are Poles more educated about the requirements needed to recieve the communion? (i.e. not living in major sin)

I truly don’t know, and I wish someone could help me answer the question.

Thank you

I’d like to offer a fourth question for your consideration.

How does speculation about the state of grace of entire populations of people hundreds or even thousands of miles away from us serve our own holiness and sanctity?

I think we can all agree that such speculation does nothing for our own holiness. My own opinion is that speculating on such a question presents an opportunity to do much damage. Certainly anxiety over it cannot lead to anything good.

-Tim-

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I’d like to offer a fourth question for your consideration.

How does speculation about the state of grace of entire populations of people hundreds or even thousands of miles away from us serve our own holiness and sanctity?

I think we can all agree that such speculation does nothing for our own holiness. My own opinion is that speculating on such a question presents an opportunity to do much damage. Certainly anxiety over it cannot lead to anything good.

-Tim-

I can’t even speculate on the people in my own parish because it draws me away from my own state of readiness to receive Jesus’ Body and Blood. When I wonder about others, it means I’m not paying attention to my own state of worthiness. How can anyone make these sweeping statements about how many people receive in an entire country??