Difference between SJW and Social Justice in CCC

[abucs]

Respectfully, I’m not going to make your argument for you. And assuming that “If ‘socialist’ Cambodia did it, then…” is as ridiculous as me saying “Well, if laissez faire Somalia did it, then…”.

Actually most of Africa has been influenced by socialism which explains their under-development.

You really need to speak in full sentences because when you don’t you haven’t made a point. There is a reason why your quotes above finish in mid sentence and that is because you do not have a valid point to convey.

It is clear that I am not asking you to make my points for me. I am inviting you to articulate the other side and I point out that the Left really find it hard to do this because they have an emotionalised position. When you asked me to list advantages of the other side I had no problem listing them.

 

[Vonsalza]

Quick question - do you understand that no one is advocating the socialization of everything?

For example, the US has socialized roads and national defense. But hamburgers are still a private commodity for the most part.

You get that it’s not an all-or-none deal, as evidenced by the very country you live in, right?

 

[abucs]

Sure! And there are horrific dangers of private care where when you run out of money, essentially, it’s your time to die.

Well ok, but I am asking you to acknowledge valid arguments on the other side. There is something about the mindset of the Left which just flatly refuse to do so, It is a narrow minded ignorance.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Respectfully, I’m not going to make your argument for you. And assuming that “If ‘socialist’ Cambodia did it, then…” is as ridiculous as me saying “Well, if laissez faire Somalia did it, then…”.

Actually most of Africa has been influenced by socialism which explains their under-development.

Colonialism explains their under-development… Unambiguously.

And I don’t particularly care about “most of Africa”, just Somalia - which largely lacks a functioning government.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Sure! And there are horrific dangers of private care where when you run out of money, essentially, it’s your time to die.

Well ok, but I am asking you to acknowledge valid arguments on the other side.

No you’re not. You’re asking me to make a list, which is a different thing.

Again, if you’d like to make an argument - you need to do the work. Don’t be so lazy as to ask others to do it for you.

You can’t go around calling people “ignorant” because they don’t want to jump through your arbitrary hoops.

 

[abucs]

I am not a leftist. I am a centrist. I am socially center-left and fiscally center-right.

I don’t have any problems acknowledging that government is not always good. Like you, I acknowledge that governments can play a role. Like you, I believe that role should be constrained. As a matter of fact (and I’ve said this several times now), I think any government assistance should be in addition to/ a complement to private efforts to address social justice issues. I do not believe government has all the answers.

I haven’t explicitly called you Leftist but you have identified in your post that you are Left on social issues and this thread is discussing social issues.

Great that we agree. Could you please tell me why you prefer there be a private component to welfare. This will probably help partly answer the original question on the dangers of a government controlled welfare system.

 

[abucs]

Quick question - do you understand that no one is advocating the socialization of everything?

For example, the US has socialized roads and national defense. But hamburgers are still a private commodity for the most part.

You get that it’s not an all-or-none deal, as evidenced by the very country you live in, right?

What has this got to do with what we are discussing? Would you like to discuss the definitions of a socialist country? Japan is certainly not socialist.

 

[abucs]

Japan socialized their healthcare at the insurance/administrative level. You just apparently don’t know that.

Well you are assuming here and you now what they say about that.

Japan having a universal healthcare insurance does not make it a socialist country. You are clearly in error to call Japan a socialist country.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Quick question - do you understand that no one is advocating the socialization of everything?

For example, the US has socialized roads and national defense. But hamburgers are still a private commodity for the most part.

You get that it’s not an all-or-none deal, as evidenced by the very country you live in, right?

What has this got to do with what we are discussing? Would you like to discuss the definitions of a socialist country? Japan is certainly not socialist.

Every successful country on this plant employs some elements of socialism in their governance. Like the US, for instance.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Private actors are better able to identify and assist in targeted ways that are more efficacious than a government one-size fits all approach.

On a federal level, I’m much more interested in federal grant programs than I am in monolithic social welfare programs. At the same time, I acknowledge that sometimes the need is so great that a large (and clearly defined) government program may well be in order.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Japan socialized their healthcare at the insurance/administrative level. You just apparently don’t know that.

Well you are assuming here and you now what they say about that.

Japan having a universal healthcare insurance does not make it a socialist country. You are clearly in error to call Japan a socialist country.

In that regard, they’re socialist. And in regards to how they sell water on the side of the street, they’re not.

Again, everyone is a mixed bag. There are no all-or-none nations upon the Earth (except, again, Somalia. They truly are pretty close to pure laissez faire).

 

[abucs]

Colonialism explains their under-development… Unambiguously.

And I don’t particularly care about “most of Africa”, just Somalia - which largely lacks a functioning government.

No it doesn’t. That is the victim politics of the Left which is a great evil. If you look at the hospital systems of Africa (which you are wanting to concentrate on) then they are the legacy of colonialism. The country that has the greatest colonial presence also has the best healthcare system.

As African countries fought off European colonial powers they inevitably embraced socialism and this is why they are very much basket cases financially today. Japan and south Korea in contrast embraced capitalism after the US presence.

 

[abucs]

No you’re not. You’re asking me to make a list, which is a different thing.

Again, if you’d like to make an argument - you need to do the work. Don’t be so lazy as to ask others to do it for you.

You can’t go around calling people “ignorant” because they don’t want to jump through your arbitrary hoops

A list can be three items long. You asked me for a list and I gave you one without a seconds hesitation.

You reply on multiple times here but apparently it is ‘work’ to ask you for a list of the advantages of the opponents arguments.

This is ignorance. Why is it so hard for you to think about the other side?

I have no problems doing it,

 

[abucs]

Every successful country on this plant employs some elements of socialism in their governance. Like the US, for instance.

I think this is the wrong way to think about socialism.

Socialism is a comprehensive system of government control. Socialism and government welfare are not the same things but government welfare can be used as a weapon to get to socialism. The larger the size of government welfare the closer one comes to socialism but government welfare in certain circumstances is not socialism.

As one of the Nordic country Prime Ministers said recently, they are not a socialist country. this was in reference to Bernie Sanders calling them socialist because of their welfare system.

This is an incorrect way to define socialism as the Prime Minister said.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Colonialism explains their under-development… Unambiguously.

And I don’t particularly care about “most of Africa”, just Somalia - which largely lacks a functioning government.

No it doesn’t.

Uh… ok

As African countries fought off European colonial powers they inevitably embraced socialism and this is why they are very much basket cases financially today.

Do you have a source for this?

Japan and south Korea in contrast embraced capitalism after the US presence.

And in the case of Japan, they’ve socialized their healthcare system… You just have difficulty internalizing that.

This is ignorance. Why is it so hard for you to think about the other side?

No, that is not ignorance. And I spent the first three decades of my life as a conservative, so I think I’ve spent plenty of time seeing it your way. Assuming that it’s hard for me to see the other side is just asinine hand-waving.

I think this is the wrong way to think about socialism.

Obviously. You seem to only deal in monoliths when the reality is much more subtle and pervasive world-wide.

Socialism is a comprehensive system of government control.

No. It’s a largely economic philosophy where the means of production is owned by the community as a whole.

 

[abucs]

Private actors are better able to identify and assist in targeted ways that are more efficacious than a government one-size fits all approach.

On a federal level, I’m much more interested in federal grant programs than I am in monolithic social welfare programs. At the same time, I acknowledge that sometimes the need is so great that a large (and clearly defined) government program may well be in order.

I agree 100% with what you have said, I would also add that private organisations are more able to budget because they do not fall into the trap of thinking they have unlimited resources through taxation.

The Australian government handed down its budget yesterday. I am not living there now but one comment by a journalist interpreted the written document as saying that Australia had to let in as many migrants as they possibly could because the government is spending money they don’t have and need future tax recepts to pay for todays government compassion.

I agree that there are advantages in government welfare, I also think financial responsibility is not one of them.

 

[abucs]

In that regard, they’re socialist. And in regards to how they sell water on the side of the street, they’re not.

Again, everyone is a mixed bag. There are no all-or-none nations upon the Earth (except, again, Somalia. They truly are pretty close to pure laissez faire).

Socialism is a comprehensive system. What are the property rights and the small business rights of Somalia?

Somalia was your example. You do know of Somalia’s history?

Somali Democratic Republic - Wikipedia

Most African countries saw socialism as the way forward. That is why they are such a mess.

 

[abucs]

Do you have a source for this?

See above regarding to the example you chose.

Also read the individual histories of the African post colonial countries.

 

[abucs]

No, that is not ignorance. And I spent the first three decades of my life as a conservative, so I think I’ve spent plenty of time seeing it your way. Assuming that it’s hard for me to see the other side is just asinine hand-waving.

Then you should be able to give a short list on the advantages of the other side. You flatly refuse to do so. Yes, that is ignorance.

 

[abucs]

Obviously. You seem to only deal in monoliths when the reality is much more subtle and pervasive world-wide.

Silly comment. Obviously. Again you did not make a point here just a running commentary. Socialism is a comprehensive system.

The Anglicans have the Eucharist which is part of Catholicism but that doesn’t make them Catholic.
The Irish speak English which is part of the language group of Great Britain but that does not make them British.
The Italians eat pasta which is a food group of the Orientals, but the Italians are not oriental.
The Japanese have some government control of their health care system where government control is a facet of socialism, but that does not make the Japanese socialist.