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EIF5A
Guest
Does a pope become infallible in matters of doctrine and faith upon becoming a pope, or does he receive revelation separately from the Holy Spirit as the situation arises such that doctrinal matters need to be settled?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
We definitely do not agree with this. We believe we are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Catholic in Patristic understanding means “whole” (universal came from the Latin translation, not the Greek original). If the body is whole by itself, the it is not a one-lung body.East and West = Left lung and Right lung of One Body. (Pope John Paul 2)
The only difference is that East do not recognise the universal Authority of the Papacy to include them! All else is a mishmash of polemics and semantics.
And no, the Papacy is not the only thing different between East and West.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
No it does not. There are many issues that need to be discussed. The role of the Pope of Rome is certainly the biggest issues and the one that seems to be the most difficult to resolve, given the Roman Church has dogmatized its position. But it certainly is not the only issue.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Not true, there was never a concept of infallibility in the early Church. The Orthodox Church from its very beginning 2000 years ago never had this concept of infallibility.
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
Certainly we Catholics also view the Church as whole and complete, or ought to. It would be whole and complete even if there were no Eastern Christians (or no Western Christians) in it at all. I suppose this would still be true if there were only Catholic left on earth, at least if he was a bishop.
The famous two lungs analogy should not, in my opinion, be interpreted in any way that contradicts this. It operates on the more superficial level of the value of cultural, theological, and spiritual diversity in the Church.
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
Well, obviously it was the Catholic Church not the Orthodox Church (nearly) 2000 years ago.
But speaking of continuous Eastern theological/doctrinal tradition, there are really two possibilities. Either you were never aware of the doctrine or you had it and later lost it.
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concretecamper
Guest
From the very beginning!
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Technically it won’t be true if there is one faithful person left on earth. You need at least one bishop and one non-bishop to make up the Church.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
The Church was established in the East firstWell, obviously it was the Catholic Church not the Orthodox Church (nearly) 2000 years ago.
Antioch and Jerusalem was there years before Rome No, it was never there. Unless you want to claim that Rome also wasn’t aware because there were many times when infallibility could have been useful to fight heresy but the Pope of Rome never used it.
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
The Catholic Church is older than its presence in Rome, of course, and it is not inherently Western or Eastern.The Church was established in the East first
No, it was never there. Unless you want to claim that Rome also wasn’t aware because there were many times when infallibility could have been useful to fight heresy but the Pope of Rome never used it.
Anyway, I don’t have the historical knowledge to say whether we have any statements from first millenium Popes to which the concept of Papal infallibility would be applicable, but even if there were none this does not mean that infallibility was not an inevitiable implication of the necessity of communion with the bishop of Rome in conjunction with the hypothetical possibility of a sufficiently strongly worded statement.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Tend to agree here, loss of doctrine in exchange with Constantine.
Like your interesting comment, Aelrod…there are Orthodox who are in communion with Rome and Protestant Catholics who are in communion with Rome. You can go into any Catholic parish and the understanding of one’s faith in relation to the Church is quite varied. Things take time to understand.
What I am poised to search out is that I have heard two times now that there was indeed mistranslation of communications between the western and eastern churches. What I was told by two sources is that it is the lower rung on both sides that are muddled in linguistic, cultural, geographical differences…but we essentially believe the same but express it differently.
I finished a beginning book on the history of the liturgy. The Eastern church was more communal, their basilicas having 8 walls, more communal, almost circular. The Latin churches were more reflecting hierarchy, a long processional aisle that up front were places for the assembly on both sides, so that the floor plan looked like a cross with the altar at the end.
I also read in another text that, although churches began in Jerusalem and worked their way up around the Mediterranean thanks to the Apostles and St. Paul, nevertheless Peter was always head, went to Rome and died there, as did St. Paul, apostle to the Gentiles. The seminarian text stated that the Church of Rome was always seen at the one having the final say in settling disputes, as well as the material source to support emerging churches.
There have been only one Catholic Church, the name Catholic taken from the Greek use in the 300’s. So it was essentially the Universal Christian Church.
About it not being declared a dogma until many hundreds of years later, the pope being declared infallible on faith and morals makes sense because the pope is the successor to Peter, its succession never broken irregardless of title, and that the Church has always had one head of a diocese, and one head of the entire church to be the sign of unity of faith in Christ for all. You look at the fragmentation of Christianity so prevalent in the USA and abroad now, and I see Christianity without a head.
The Patriarch of Russia has been seeing the need for greater unity in the Universal Christian Church whose roots go back to the beginning of faith in Christ. Jesus prayed at the Last Supper that we all be one so the world would believe.
I look at the world and each day the news seem to get worse and worse, a world without Christ. So for this, I pray all the more for the salvation of souls that we will return to have One Peter over all the Christian faithful.
We project God onto the Pope when that is not the case. He is human like us. When he speaks in the Lord, he is speaking the same reality of God that exists in each one of us. That is when the Holy Father is speaking in the Living Tradition of Christ in his role as Successor to Peter and Vicar of Christ.
Be not afraid.
So in the context of this post, Aelrod, have you heard of mistranslations and cultural differences and approach to faith, as actually being the cause of the Schism?
Like your interesting comment, Aelrod…there are Orthodox who are in communion with Rome and Protestant Catholics who are in communion with Rome. You can go into any Catholic parish and the understanding of one’s faith in relation to the Church is quite varied. Things take time to understand.
What I am poised to search out is that I have heard two times now that there was indeed mistranslation of communications between the western and eastern churches. What I was told by two sources is that it is the lower rung on both sides that are muddled in linguistic, cultural, geographical differences…but we essentially believe the same but express it differently.
I finished a beginning book on the history of the liturgy. The Eastern church was more communal, their basilicas having 8 walls, more communal, almost circular. The Latin churches were more reflecting hierarchy, a long processional aisle that up front were places for the assembly on both sides, so that the floor plan looked like a cross with the altar at the end.
I also read in another text that, although churches began in Jerusalem and worked their way up around the Mediterranean thanks to the Apostles and St. Paul, nevertheless Peter was always head, went to Rome and died there, as did St. Paul, apostle to the Gentiles. The seminarian text stated that the Church of Rome was always seen at the one having the final say in settling disputes, as well as the material source to support emerging churches.
There have been only one Catholic Church, the name Catholic taken from the Greek use in the 300’s. So it was essentially the Universal Christian Church.
About it not being declared a dogma until many hundreds of years later, the pope being declared infallible on faith and morals makes sense because the pope is the successor to Peter, its succession never broken irregardless of title, and that the Church has always had one head of a diocese, and one head of the entire church to be the sign of unity of faith in Christ for all. You look at the fragmentation of Christianity so prevalent in the USA and abroad now, and I see Christianity without a head.
The Patriarch of Russia has been seeing the need for greater unity in the Universal Christian Church whose roots go back to the beginning of faith in Christ. Jesus prayed at the Last Supper that we all be one so the world would believe.
I look at the world and each day the news seem to get worse and worse, a world without Christ. So for this, I pray all the more for the salvation of souls that we will return to have One Peter over all the Christian faithful.
We project God onto the Pope when that is not the case. He is human like us. When he speaks in the Lord, he is speaking the same reality of God that exists in each one of us. That is when the Holy Father is speaking in the Living Tradition of Christ in his role as Successor to Peter and Vicar of Christ.
Be not afraid.
So in the context of this post, Aelrod, have you heard of mistranslations and cultural differences and approach to faith, as actually being the cause of the Schism?
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
Maybe you are right on that. The very idea of it only occured to me as I was typing. I’d be interested in the reason, but maybe PM me with it since I don’t want to derail the thread.
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Wandile
Guest
Not sure if it was Mother Teresa or St Faustina but I remember the saying :
" if all should parish but one person of the Catholic Church, that person is the one holy catholic and apostolic church"
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KathleenGee
Guest
Yes, that is what I heard. If there is only one person left in town, who is Catholic, the Church still exists there.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Not true. Who’d say Mass? Who’d consecrate the Eucharist?
St. Ignatius of Antioch said that the Church is found where the Bishop is with the people gathered around him and Christ is present among them (through the Eucharist). The Bishop must be there to celebrate the Eucharist, and at least one other person gathered around him (whenever there are two or three gathered in my name…), that is what constitutes the Church. If there is only one faithful person left, even if that person is a bishop, that is not the Church.
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jimmy
Guest
This is a eastern understanding. In the west a priest can say mass on his own. From what I have gathered of the Orthodox there is a necessary community. The nonclergy are just as necessary as the priest. You cant have the liturgy without the community or the Church. There is an organic unity between the bishop and priests and the community, and neither can exist without the other. They correspond to eachother.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Also, the priest cannot celebrate the Eucharist without the bishop. So if there is no bishop who authorizes a priest to celebrate the Eucharist, there is no Eucharist. That is why the antimens is very important in an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Unless of course a bishop is celebrating, thus no antimens is required.
On the other hand, the Western understanding is that the Pope is the Church. So if there is one man left and he’s not the Pope, there is no Church even if that man is a bishop.
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KathleenGee
Guest
We will always have Peter until the end of the world.
It is imperative we all draw to unity and communion with the Holy Father. Really, I look at differences of faith perspectives here, and some are of the Latin tradition, others having more need of mystery of faith. But what is important is that we are one and accept our differences.
But…with the Holy Father.
I am reading up on Pope Pius XII. My father told me the Holy Father was doing all he could to help the Jews during WWII, this after the play, ‘The Deputy’ came out. So Pius has been calumniated now for many years.
In mid 2000’s, a Jewish organization asked to look at documents at the Vatican Library and was given permission. Their goal was to do an expose of Pius. They also pursued other documents of different eras and so called scandals. They came out of it totally changed, seeing that Pius did more for the Jews than any other human being. They also wondered why the Church did not defend itself, after seeing other documents, in the face of world criticism and scandal.
Sometimes when you are knowing you walking in Christ’s will, turning the other cheek is the right response.
I am watching old film clips of Pius and seeing just how much this pope did, one single man, but full of the presence and grace of Christ. I intercede for his canonization. And I pray that the calumny of Pope Pius XII will be the catalyst to open our young people to the truth of what the Catholic Church truly is.
Likewise, so many of us were most aware of the suffering, persecutions, and martyrdom of the Orthodox, especially, Constantine…this is especially for you…of our Blessed Mother of Fatima who foretold the coming of the errors of Russia, the annihilation of various countries, how Portugal would keep the true faith, and so on.
Mary came in an apparition to warn us about errors coming in the world, to pray for the perseverance of faith and the conversion of sinners. Nazi Germany was the place whose faith was formed in 8 German Jesuit priests who went to Japan as missionaries. They listened to Mary of Fatima, prayed the rosary daily, did penance, and were miraculously spared of the atomic bomb over Nagasaki.
We continue to pray with the intercession of our Blessed Mother for the end of the Schism, in that we may be one so this poor world may believe.
It is imperative we all draw to unity and communion with the Holy Father. Really, I look at differences of faith perspectives here, and some are of the Latin tradition, others having more need of mystery of faith. But what is important is that we are one and accept our differences.
But…with the Holy Father.
I am reading up on Pope Pius XII. My father told me the Holy Father was doing all he could to help the Jews during WWII, this after the play, ‘The Deputy’ came out. So Pius has been calumniated now for many years.
In mid 2000’s, a Jewish organization asked to look at documents at the Vatican Library and was given permission. Their goal was to do an expose of Pius. They also pursued other documents of different eras and so called scandals. They came out of it totally changed, seeing that Pius did more for the Jews than any other human being. They also wondered why the Church did not defend itself, after seeing other documents, in the face of world criticism and scandal.
Sometimes when you are knowing you walking in Christ’s will, turning the other cheek is the right response.
I am watching old film clips of Pius and seeing just how much this pope did, one single man, but full of the presence and grace of Christ. I intercede for his canonization. And I pray that the calumny of Pope Pius XII will be the catalyst to open our young people to the truth of what the Catholic Church truly is.
Likewise, so many of us were most aware of the suffering, persecutions, and martyrdom of the Orthodox, especially, Constantine…this is especially for you…of our Blessed Mother of Fatima who foretold the coming of the errors of Russia, the annihilation of various countries, how Portugal would keep the true faith, and so on.
Mary came in an apparition to warn us about errors coming in the world, to pray for the perseverance of faith and the conversion of sinners. Nazi Germany was the place whose faith was formed in 8 German Jesuit priests who went to Japan as missionaries. They listened to Mary of Fatima, prayed the rosary daily, did penance, and were miraculously spared of the atomic bomb over Nagasaki.
We continue to pray with the intercession of our Blessed Mother for the end of the Schism, in that we may be one so this poor world may believe.
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
Well, all that about the Pope is just not true. The Church still exists during a Papal interregnum, after all.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
So if there is one person remaining and he is a bishop, can he elect himself Pope?
Actually, there is that greater discussion that no one dares to start. The RCC teaches that to be saved one must be under the Pope. So if an RC dies during the period of sedevacante, do they go to hell?
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