Difference non-denominational Church vs other "reborns"?

[SteveVH]

PART III

It can’t? What happened in the Episcopolean Church/Anglican Church then?
In the beginning they also believed firmly in the RP, later, as they opened themselves, Calvinist thinking came in, and also partly (in Low Churches) disbelieve in the RP…

Why doesn’t anybody see the great progress those two Churches (The CC and the Evangelical Church) have made over the past 500 years concerning steps to reunification?
And I think Pop John Paul II never meant to interpret his quote like you did above!
He talks about ourselves. - About our lives. Actually, that’s not that different from the Baptist’s view, and that’s the reason why we need to be REBORN.
Mhm, one last thought, Christians believe: That Jesus Christ has died for us on the Cross so that we may live.
That the Bible is God’s written word - his love letter to us (as I read on a website recently! )
That humans are sinners and that noone can go to heaven except by faith in Jesus, god’s rescue for us humans.
I think this is already enough in common for a searching person to choose Christianity (no matter which denom in this case!)
And I am sure, we can find other things ALL denominations have in common (excluding Christian cults. Because I often have the feeling that some of you mix up cult and sect!)
But I guess that’s worth another thread.
If you want you can create it, StevenH.

So far…

in Christ,

Ok Esdra. I don’t have the energy to sift through and answer every point. Suffice it to say that you seem to believe that it is not just okay, but actually desireable to compromise the truth for the sake of some sense of unity. That will not happen in the Catholic Church. There was an expectation of this, by Protestants, during Vatican II. They were sure that the Catholic Church had seen the errors of its ways and were ready to bend. It didn’t happen then and it will never happen because the Church is charged with guarding the truth handed down to it by the Apostles, not compromising that truth.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Hi all,

recently I’ve found out that the Vineyard Church is not a Pentecostal Church (as I’ve always thought), but a non-denominational Church. - This Church exists in Innsbruck, the nearest bigger city from where I live. (And where also my working place is.)
**
Now, what’s the difference between let’s say, Baptists, Pentecostals and non-denominational Churches?**

in Christ,
Esdra

The problem with “non-denominational” churches is the plain fact that they are under no hierarchy, so the theology will depend on the pastor in charge.

Pentecostalism is a theology, Assemblies of God is one of their denominations. The general body essentially establishes the rules and theological principles by which churches under the Assemblies of God affiliation are run.

Non-denominational churches do not have that hierarchy, so theoretically, you can have someone who espouses anything from cessationism to promotion of Pentecostal beliefs, to heretical beliefs like the preexistence of souls or something.

Generally though, most non-denominational churches will standard Evangelical beliefs, and probably won’t pronounce an opinion on things like tongues or not.

 

[Godith]

The Vineyard is sort of a new denomination. What happened is that John Wimber, the founder of the Vineyard, is this non-charismatic evangelical. Anyway he comes to the views of the Pentecostal and charismatics that all the spiritual gifts are present in the Church today and have never ceased.

So he begins to teach what he calls “empowered evangelicalism”. This is that where the Gospel is proclaimed (much like in the New Testament) there should be displays of God’s power. He believed in healing and believed in equipping lay people on how to pray for healing.

It has some things in common with Pentecostalism but its more charismatic than classical Pentecostal. If I’m not mistaken, the Vineyard believes that Christians are Spirit baptized when they are born again. So to them, all true Christians are “Spirit-filled” however they do believe that a person can have many fillings of the Spirit within their life. So those in a Vineyard church could have an experience similar to Pentecostal baptism with the Holy Spirit, only they wouldn’t call it Spirit baptism but “being filled”.

PS: The Vineyard started in the 80s. The charismatic movement in both mainline Protestant churches and the Catholic Church began in the 60s. The charismatic movement is sometimes called “neo-Pentecostalism” (new Pentecostalism) and the Pentecostalism that began in the 1900s is generally called classical Pentecostalism.

I have been a member of a Vineyard church for the about 15 years, so I thought I might be able to chip in with a little about who we are. Please note: This is my personal understanding, and doesn’t constitute the official Vineyard position on things, unless I am quoting from the Vineyard Statement of Faith.

We are a non-denominational church, in that we see all Christians as brothers and sisters, and all those brothers and sisters as part of Christ’s Universal Church. Yes, the various denominations do disagree on matters of doctrine and practice, and there’s no getting away from that. We believe the reason for that is because the Universal Church is made up of fallible human beings, and although we seek to know God and His Will, we don’t ever fully succeed in that whilst we are on earth. And yes, that means we’re no more right than anyone else, and quite possibly more wrong than many. lol

*We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known. * I Corinthians 13 v12, Douay-Rheims Bible

If you want to get technical, the Vineyard Movement comes out of what’s called the Third Wave of the Holy Spirit. We wouldn’t call ourselves Pentecostal, nor Charismatic, though there’s nothing wrong with being either of those things. We actually don’t use words like that very often, anyway. We talk about church (little c), which is our expression of Christianity, or our local worshipping community, and Church (big C), which is the Universal Church made up of all true believers.

Here’s the part from the Vineyard Statement of Faith about being filled with the Holy Spirit:

We believe…
…that the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Jesus Christ and that He is our abiding Helper, Teacher, and Guide. We believe in the filling or the empowering of the Holy Spirit, often a conscious experience, for ministry today. We believe in the present ministry of the Spirit and in the exercise of all of the biblical gifts of the Spirit. We practice the laying on of hands for the empowering of the Spirit, for healing, and for recognition and empowering of those whom God has ordained to lead and serve the Church.

We don’t talk about ‘Spirit baptism’, because, fundamentally, we don’t believe in that. (It’s here that the difference lies between us and many Pentecostal churches, as I understand it). Every believer already has the Holy Spirit within them. However, a Christian may encounter the Holy Spirit in the experience called ‘filling’ or ‘empowering’ many, many times. Sometimes it’s a physical experience, and sometimes God empowers us to do something like stand up for our faith or help someone in need without us even noticing. Christians have the Holy Spirit with them whether we sense Him or not, and a big, physical experience or speaking in tongues or whatever doesn’t mean you are ‘closer to God’ or a better Christian or something, which some people will try and tell you.

We do love to pray for healing. Jesus healed quite a few people in His ministry, so we try to emulate Him. A typical Vineyard service includes the offer of prayer for healing, and we believe God can use the prayers of any Christian. lay or ordained, to minster healing.

Vineyard Music is more famous than the church movement is. Many, many churches, including, I’ve heard, some Catholic ones, use Vineyard songs.

If you are interested, I would recommend John Wimber’s books, especially ‘Power Evangelism’ and ‘Power Healing’. Don’t mishear me, though. I’m not **in any way **suggesting that anyone should leave their own church.

I’ve wittered on a bit, but I hope some of that is helpful in answering the OP’s question.

 

[ltwin]

I have been a member of a Vineyard church for the about 15 years, so I thought I might be able to chip in with a little about who we are. Please note: This is my personal understanding, and doesn’t constitute the official Vineyard position on things, unless I am quoting from the Vineyard Statement of Faith.

We are a non-denominational church, in that we see all Christians as brothers and sisters, and all those brothers and sisters as part of Christ’s Universal Church. Yes, the various denominations do disagree on matters of doctrine and practice, and there’s no getting away from that. We believe the reason for that is because the Universal Church is made up of fallible human beings, and although we seek to know God and His Will, we don’t ever fully succeed in that whilst we are on earth. And yes, that means we’re no more right than anyone else, and quite possibly more wrong than many. lol

*We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known. * I Corinthians 13 v12, Douay-Rheims Bible

If you want to get technical, the Vineyard Movement comes out of what’s called the Third Wave of the Holy Spirit. We wouldn’t call ourselves Pentecostal, nor Charismatic, though there’s nothing wrong with being either of those things. We actually don’t use words like that very often, anyway. We talk about church (little c), which is our expression of Christianity, or our local worshipping community, and Church (big C), which is the Universal Church made up of all true believers.

Here’s the part from the Vineyard Statement of Faith about being filled with the Holy Spirit:

We believe…
…that the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Jesus Christ and that He is our abiding Helper, Teacher, and Guide. We believe in the filling or the empowering of the Holy Spirit, often a conscious experience, for ministry today. We believe in the present ministry of the Spirit and in the exercise of all of the biblical gifts of the Spirit. We practice the laying on of hands for the empowering of the Spirit, for healing, and for recognition and empowering of those whom God has ordained to lead and serve the Church.

We don’t talk about ‘Spirit baptism’, because, fundamentally, we don’t believe in that. (It’s here that the difference lies between us and many Pentecostal churches, as I understand it). Every believer already has the Holy Spirit within them. However, a Christian may encounter the Holy Spirit in the experience called ‘filling’ or ‘empowering’ many, many times. Sometimes it’s a physical experience, and sometimes God empowers us to do something like stand up for our faith or help someone in need without us even noticing. Christians have the Holy Spirit with them whether we sense Him or not, and a big, physical experience or speaking in tongues or whatever doesn’t mean you are ‘closer to God’ or a better Christian or something, which some people will try and tell you.

We do love to pray for healing. Jesus healed quite a few people in His ministry, so we try to emulate Him. A typical Vineyard service includes the offer of prayer for healing, and we believe God can use the prayers of any Christian. lay or ordained, to minster healing.

Vineyard Music is more famous than the church movement is. Many, many churches, including, I’ve heard, some Catholic ones, use Vineyard songs.

If you are interested, I would recommend John Wimber’s books, especially ‘Power Evangelism’ and ‘Power Healing’. Don’t mishear me, though. I’m not **in any way **suggesting that anyone should leave their own church.

I’ve wittered on a bit, but I hope some of that is helpful in answering the OP’s question.

Thanks for that. I was familiar with some of what the Vineyard taught, but not much. The beliefs are close in both the Vineyard and Pentecostalism in that we believe their are experiences of empowerment that equip people for service. However, I gather that Pentecostal beliefs about these empowering experiences are somewhat more set in stone than the Third Wave.

Pentecostals also believe that every Christian has the Holy Spirit in and with them. The baptism with the Spirit is as a filling and an empowering experience. Pentecostals also believe that you can be filled more than once throughout your life, though there is only one Spirit baptism.

P.S.: For all who don’t know, the term “Third Wave of the Holy Spirit” is as Godith said a term often applied to the Vineyard and similar groups. The “First Wave” was Pentecostalism, the “Second Wave” was the charismatic movement.

 

[Esdra]

I have been a member of a Vineyard church for the about 15 years, so I thought I might be able to chip in with a little about who we are. Please note: This is my personal understanding, and doesn’t constitute the official Vineyard position on things, unless I am quoting from the Vineyard Statement of Faith.

We are a non-denominational church, in that we see all Christians as brothers and sisters, and all those brothers and sisters as part of Christ’s Universal Church. Yes, the various denominations do disagree on matters of doctrine and practice, and there’s no getting away from that. We believe the reason for that is because the Universal Church is made up of fallible human beings, and although we seek to know God and His Will, we don’t ever fully succeed in that whilst we are on earth. And yes, that means we’re no more right than anyone else, and quite possibly more wrong than many. lol

*We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known. * I Corinthians 13 v12, Douay-Rheims Bible

If you want to get technical, the Vineyard Movement comes out of what’s called the Third Wave of the Holy Spirit. We wouldn’t call ourselves Pentecostal, nor Charismatic, though there’s nothing wrong with being either of those things. We actually don’t use words like that very often, anyway. We talk about church (little c), which is our expression of Christianity, or our local worshipping community, and Church (big C), which is the Universal Church made up of all true believers.

Here’s the part from the Vineyard Statement of Faith about being filled with the Holy Spirit:

We believe…
…that the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Jesus Christ and that He is our abiding Helper, Teacher, and Guide. We believe in the filling or the empowering of the Holy Spirit, often a conscious experience, for ministry today. We believe in the present ministry of the Spirit and in the exercise of all of the biblical gifts of the Spirit. We practice the laying on of hands for the empowering of the Spirit, for healing, and for recognition and empowering of those whom God has ordained to lead and serve the Church.

We don’t talk about ‘Spirit baptism’, because, fundamentally, we don’t believe in that. (It’s here that the difference lies between us and many Pentecostal churches, as I understand it). Every believer already has the Holy Spirit within them. However, a Christian may encounter the Holy Spirit in the experience called ‘filling’ or ‘empowering’ many, many times. Sometimes it’s a physical experience, and sometimes God empowers us to do something like stand up for our faith or help someone in need without us even noticing. Christians have the Holy Spirit with them whether we sense Him or not, and a big, physical experience or speaking in tongues or whatever doesn’t mean you are ‘closer to God’ or a better Christian or something, which some people will try and tell you.

We do love to pray for healing. Jesus healed quite a few people in His ministry, so we try to emulate Him. A typical Vineyard service includes the offer of prayer for healing, and we believe God can use the prayers of any Christian. lay or ordained, to minster healing.

Vineyard Music is more famous than the church movement is. Many, many churches, including, I’ve heard, some Catholic ones, use Vineyard songs.

If you are interested, I would recommend John Wimber’s books, especially ‘Power Evangelism’ and ‘Power Healing’. Don’t mishear me, though. I’m not **in any way **suggesting that anyone should leave their own church.

I’ve wittered on a bit, but I hope some of that is helpful in answering the OP’s question.

Thank you very much for this very intersting post.
You helped me a lot.

I didn’t know that there is ordained priesthood (or sort of) in the Vineyard movement?

It sounds a pretty interesting church and I maybe will come to Innsbruck to one of their services the next days.

in Christ,

 

[Esdra]

The problem with “non-denominational” churches is the plain fact that they are under no hierarchy, so the theology will depend on the pastor in charge.

Pentecostalism is a theology, Assemblies of God is one of their denominations. The general body essentially establishes the rules and theological principles by which churches under the Assemblies of God affiliation are run.

Non-denominational churches do not have that hierarchy, so theoretically, you can have someone who espouses anything from cessationism to promotion of Pentecostal beliefs, to heretical beliefs like the preexistence of souls or something.

Generally though, most non-denominational churches will standard Evangelical beliefs, and probably won’t pronounce an opinion on things like tongues or not.

Well, and I put so much effort in adressing every point of your last post!

Okay, so after Vaticanum II it got clear that the CC won’t “see its errors”.
Believe me, Steve, no only Protestants hoped for a change in the CC, but also liberal Catholics, like my dad. - He got that disappointed when he realised that there won’t be any change at all - on the contrary - that he more or lessed (meaning not going to Church anymore and not recieving the Sacraments anymore - until know he hasn’t gone recieving the Eucharist!) leaved the CC. (Up to Vaticanum II he was a very faithful and devout Catholic!)

Hoping for a more detailled post of you in the next days, answering my three posts!

 

[Esdra]

Thanks for that. I was familiar with some of what the Vineyard taught, but not much. The beliefs are close in both the Vineyard and Pentecostalism in that we believe their are experiences of empowerment that equip people for service. However, I gather that Pentecostal beliefs about these empowering experiences are somewhat more set in stone than the Third Wave.

Pentecostals also believe that every Christian has the Holy Spirit in and with them. The baptism with the Spirit is as a filling and an empowering experience. Pentecostals also believe that you can be filled more than once throughout your life, though there is only one Spirit baptism.

P.S.: For all who don’t know, the term “Third Wave of the Holy Spirit” is as Godith said a term often applied to the Vineyard and similar groups. The “First Wave” was Pentecostalism, the “Second Wave” was the charismatic movement.

Indeed, for me the differences also seem rather minor between Vineyard and Pentecostalism. I think in some points the emphasis is a bit different - and correct me, if I am wrong, Pentecostalism has laity priesthood only (meaning everybody is a priest).

The Three Waves of the Holy Spirit is also new terminolgy for me!

in Christ,

 

[ltwin]

Godith;8257980:

Here’s the part from the Vineyard Statement of Faith about being filled with the Holy Spirit:

We believe…
…that the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Jesus Christ and that He is our abiding Helper, Teacher, and Guide. We believe in the filling or the empowering of the Holy Spirit, often a conscious experience, for ministry today. We believe in the present ministry of the Spirit and in the exercise of all of the biblical gifts of the Spirit. We practice the laying on of hands for the empowering of the Spirit, for healing, and for recognition and empowering of those whom God has ordained to lead and serve the Church

.

I didn’t know that there is ordained priesthood (or sort of) in the Vineyard movement?

Esdra, you will find that the Vineyard, Pentecostals, and most Protestants are in agreement about the need for ordained leadership in the church. This ordination will typically involve the laying on of hands. The Vineyard does not have an ordained priesthood, but it does have ordained ministers. As to how it works in the Vineyard, Godith will be able to answer that better then I could.

and correct me, if I am wrong, Pentecostalism has laity priesthood only (meaning everybody is a priest).

Pentecostals believe in the priesthood and prophethood of all believers. So, ministry belongs to the entire church and to all Christians. However, we believe it is biblical and right that God calls people into full time ministry and service to the Body of Christ and that this call be recognized by the Body. When a call on someone’s life is discerned and recognized, that person is set a part and trained and encouraged, eventually leading to his or her ordination. Pentecostals do not typically deny women ordination (and this is not a new trend, but has occurred since the beginning of the movement - we were letting women pastor before it was cool).

In fact, because Pentecostals emphasize lay ministry, the ordained ministry becomes even more important, because the laity must be spiritually formed and prepared to carry out their ministry in the church. If you have a pastor who poorly trains and prepares his congregation for ministry, think of the havoc that can result.

In Pentecostal churches, pastors provide spiritual leadership to the congregation in cooperation with the elders and/or deacons, is primarily responsible for determining the direction and vision of a particular church, is primarily responsible for maintaining scriptural order (especially relating to discerning vocal gifts and other spiritual manifestations), and performing the ordinances of the church.

However, it should be noted that all Pentecostals are equal and Pentecostals believe that laity may perform all the functions of the clergy when necessary (unless when state law requires an ordained minister). This attitude is revealed in the once universal (now less common) practice of not using any titles when addressing a pastor or other minister. Pentecostals addressed everyone in the church as Brother or Sister. Now you are beginning to hear people stress the importance of honoring and respecting pastors by addressing them as pastor.

Pentecostal ordination is the public ceremony in which the call of God is acknowledged by the church. It is spiritual and functional, rather than sacerdotal. Thus ordination and official recognition is important, but not essential for public preaching and ministry.

It is also important to note that when Pentecostals ordain someone, “Authority and power for ministry are conferred directly by Christ through the Holy Spirit, not through those who perform the ordination ceremony.” Ordination will include the laying on of hands. In the Assemblies of God and other similar groups, ordination will be conducted by the district superintendent (similar to a bishop) and he along with district presbyters and other senior ministers will lay hands on the person being ordained and pray over him or her.

 

[Esdra]

Esdra, you will find that the Vineyard, Pentecostals, and most Protestants are in agreement about the need for ordained leadership in the church. This ordination will typically involve the laying on of hands. The Vineyard does not have an ordained priesthood, but it does have ordained ministers. As to how it works in the Vineyard, Godith will be able to answer that better then I could.

Pentecostals believe in the priesthood and prophethood of all believers. So, ministry belongs to the entire church and to all Christians. However, we believe it is biblical and right that God calls people into full time ministry and service to the Body of Christ and that this call be recognized by the Body. When a call on someone’s life is discerned and recognized, that person is set a part and trained and encouraged, eventually leading to his or her ordination. Pentecostals do not typically deny women ordination (and this is not a new trend, but has occurred since the beginning of the movement - we were letting women pastor before it was cool).

In fact, because Pentecostals emphasize lay ministry, the ordained ministry becomes even more important, because the laity must be spiritually formed and prepared to carry out their ministry in the church. If you have a pastor who poorly trains and prepares his congregation for ministry, think of the havoc that can result.

In Pentecostal churches, pastors provide spiritual leadership to the congregation in cooperation with the elders and/or deacons, is primarily responsible for determining the direction and vision of a particular church, is primarily responsible for maintaining scriptural order (especially relating to discerning vocal gifts and other spiritual manifestations), and performing the ordinances of the church.

However, it should be noted that all Pentecostals are equal and Pentecostals believe that laity may perform all the functions of the clergy when necessary (unless when state law requires an ordained minister). This attitude is revealed in the once universal (now less common) practice of not using any titles when addressing a pastor or other minister. Pentecostals addressed everyone in the church as Brother or Sister. Now you are beginning to hear people stress the importance of honoring and respecting pastors by addressing them as pastor.

Pentecostal ordination is the public ceremony in which the call of God is acknowledged by the church. It is spiritual and functional, rather than sacerdotal. Thus ordination and official recognition is important, but not essential for public preaching and ministry.

It is also important to note that when Pentecostals ordain someone, “Authority and power for ministry are conferred directly by Christ through the Holy Spirit, not through those who perform the ordination ceremony.” Ordination will include the laying on of hands. In the Assemblies of God and other similar groups, ordination will be conducted by the district superintendent (similar to a bishop) and he along with district presbyters and other senior ministers will lay hands on the person being ordained and pray over him or her.

Hi

thank you very much for this very interesting post!

I am attending a “charismatic Baptist Church” - in Germany and Austria they are called “Evangelische Freikirche” or “Evangelisch-freikirchliche Gemeinde” (= roughly translated Evangelical Free Church).

I know about persons, so called pastors, who preform a full-time ministry (even as a job) and this is also the case in my Church. We have a pastor whose job is a full-time minister in this Church and two presbyters (who have secular jobs as well) ('Though I am not sure about “titles” - we don’t really talk about that, all are brothers and sisters in Christ…)

I also know an Assemblies of God Church (in Austria it’s called Freie Christengemeinde Pfingstgemeinde which is roughly translated: “Free Christian Church - Pentecostal Church”), and actually I was on the point joining them, but then decided for the nearer Charismatic Baptist Church mentioned above.

But so far (and I’ve read really a lot about those “Free Churches” (Freikirchen), as they are commonly called in the German speaking world), I’ve never heard of a superintendet (bishop) in the Pentecostal Church of Austria (see above) which belongs to the Assemblies of God.

I’ll ask my pastor (I always use this term, influenced by the Lutheran Evangelical Church maybe, I sometimes attended before I enthrusted Jesus my life. ) about ordination in my Church. That really interests me.

in Christ,

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Yes, that’s really interesting. Thank you.

Though your last sentence is unneseccary or in other words false as the Catholic Church wasn’t founded by Jesus, but by his Apostles and that it developed over the past, let’s say roughly 2000 years so that it is like it is now in the 21th century.
And when it became the national religion of the Roman Empire it got many influences of other cults within the Roman Empire (i.e. Mithras cult, but also others) - and that’s a historical fact! (And I studied some semestres of Ancient History!)

I’ve studied Ancient History as well, and what you say isn’t true.

There is no evidence that the Catholic Church adopted any pagan relgious belief. None whatsoever. Indeed, the Church fought fiercely against such possibilities.

It’s peculiar that you mention that Mithras cult, because the only ones I’ve ever heard associating it with the Catholic Church are the same people who say that Christianity is a fake religion. Is that your take on it, too?

Most of the allegations concerning the Mithras cult are unfounded, and are based on pure speculation.

 

[ltwin]

But so far (and I’ve read really a lot about those “Free Churches” (Freikirchen), as they are commonly called in the German speaking world), I’ve never heard of a superintendet (bishop) in the Pentecostal Church of Austria (see above) which belongs to the Assemblies of God.

My remarks about the Assemblies of God are to the USA body. The Assemblies of God is a worldwide fellowship of independent AG denominations. How the AG in the US organizes itself will have no effect on how those in Austria organize themselves.

 

[Esdra]

I’ve studied Ancient History as well, and what you say isn’t true.

There is no evidence that the Catholic Church adopted any pagan relgious belief. None whatsoever. Indeed, the Church fought fiercely against such possibilities.

It’s peculiar that you mention that Mithras cult, because the only ones I’ve ever heard associating it with the Catholic Church are the same people who say that Christianity is a fake religion. Is that your take on it, too?

Most of the allegations concerning the Mithras cult are unfounded, and are based on pure speculation.

Are you sure?

Do you think that many thousend years of polytheism go away just like that, only because a monotheistic religion becomes the national religion?
No, I am sure not!
Maybe there is no historical proof (I don’t know, frankly, as I haven’t studied that part of Ancient History that accurately) that some feasts, gods and practices were converted into christian feasts, and saints, but I think this highly probable.
Let’s take All Saints Day: Only one day before nowadays (again) Helloween is celebrated. Helloween was in former times called Samhain (by the Celts) and marked the End of the Year, where also the dead are remembered. (They even were afraid that they might get out of Hades in this night, as the barriers between the worlds are very slight on this particular day.)
A strange coincidence? - No, I don’t think so. And there are even other examples.

Christianity didn’t have a mother-goddess, so what happened when it became the national religion of the Roman Empire? I think you know what I want to say now.

Saints: You invoke certain Saints for certain occationes, don’t you? (Like St. Antonius when you lose something).
Every club has a patron, like St. Florianus for the fire-brigade or St. Cecilia for the musicians.
In Polytheism there was something called “House gods”. Mhm, looks similar to me. Not talking about the Olympic Gods. (fishermen → Neptun)

I think it’s simply naive to think that all of sudden the whole inhabitants of the Roman Empire became Christians, forgetting from one day to the next their old gods and traditions and religious practices!!

 

[Esdra]

My remarks about the Assemblies of God are to the USA body. The Assemblies of God is a worldwide fellowship of independent AG denominations. How the AG in the US organizes itself will have no effect on how those in Austria organize themselves.

Mhm, yes, I already gave that a thought.
The bodies are probably quite different in structure throughout the world.

 

[Godith]

Thank you very much for this very intersting post.
You helped me a lot.

I didn’t know that there is ordained priesthood (or sort of) in the Vineyard movement?

It sounds a pretty interesting church and I maybe will come to Innsbruck to one of their services the next days.

in Christ,

Glad I could help.

I love being part of the Vineyard Movement. I felt God led me into that church, and I’ve grown hugely as a Christian by being a member. If you do choose to visit the one at Innsbruck, you’ll have to let me know what you think.

Esdra, you will find that the Vineyard, Pentecostals, and most Protestants are in agreement about the need for ordained leadership in the church. This ordination will typically involve the laying on of hands. The Vineyard does not have an ordained priesthood, but it does have ordained ministers. As to how it works in the Vineyard, Godith will be able to answer that better then I could.

Like Pentecostals, we believe in the priesthood of all believers. (1 Peter 2 v5, 9). The Gifts of the Spirit are for every believer, given as God chooses, and all Christians are called to use the gifts they have in ministry to the Body, and to non-believers. As John Wimber said, Everyone gets to play! We believe gifts can be imparted by the laying on of hands, so a Christian wanting, for instance, the gift of healing, might approach someone known to have that gift, and ask for prayer. (St Paul tells us to eagerly desire the gifts in 1 Corinthians, so it’s OK to ask for them ).

However, that doesn’t mean that the church doesn’t need leadership. God is a God of order, and so He gives us leaders whom He has gifted and equipped to lead the church. Our structure is a hierarchical one. Each church is lead by an ordained Senior Pastor or Pastors. We ordain women as well as men, and it is common for a church to be lead by a married couple, both Senior Pastors. Depending on the size of the church, they may have one or more ordained Associate Pastors helping them, as well as a whole bunch of lay people. Pastors are trained by other more experienced pastors within the Movement, under the direction of the National Leaders (again, most often an ordained married couple). We also have an international organisation called the Vineyard Bible Institute, which offers training in theology and Bible study, but that’s separate to the training for pastors. Although a Senior Pastor is usually in charge of teaching and giving sermons in his/her church, that’s not always the case. Other people who have a teaching gift will also deliver Sunday sermons. That goes back to the priesthood of all believers idea - we all do what we are gifted to do, in order that the Body can function well. A pastor is usually the one to lead Sunday Communion, or to baptise people, but not because we believe others couldn’t do that. It’s about having order in the church, and because the pastors are the spiritual heads of the family.

Like in Pentecostal churches, the Senior Pastors are responsible for the spiritual wellbeing of the congregation, and for the vision of the local church. It is their job to maintain discipline, and to ensure people are being properly cared for, built up, equipped, trained and supported to get to know God, follow Him, and use their gifts to serve Christ.

Ordination in Vineyard is by the laying on of hands. Usually this would be done by appropriate Senior Pastors and/or the National Leaders, in a public Sunday service. It is about the ordinand committing to serve the church in this special way, as well as a public recognition of their calling from God to lead.

 

[CopticChristian]

Which Church doesn’t believe in water baptism?

Of course the CC is also a denomination. What else?

Did you know that for a Muslim all Christians are the same? He doesn’t differentiate. I know that from the dad of my collegue who are muslims - For him even JWs are Christians!

So instead of quarrelling within the denominationes fighting over more or less minor differences in theology [There are even quarrels within one denomination!], we should stand together and try to reach those who don’t know Christ (or who do know Him, but don’t want to know anything for Him - and that’s the case within the Liberal Protestant Churches as well as the Catholic Church, and certainly also Baptists in areas where they are the majority denomination!)

in Christ,
Esdra

Originally Posted by guanophore

The Catholic Church is not a “denomination”. It is the One Church founded by Jesus, from which all others have denominated. And with each and every denomination, more of the Gospel message has been lost

.

You may want to rethink this one. Guanaphore left the OHCAC for 20 years and now is back. He posted this in a prior post. I have saved many of his posts for this specific reason. I wouldn’t mess with G.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi all,

recently I’ve found out that the Vineyard Church is not a Pentecostal Church (as I’ve always thought), but a non-denominational Church. - This Church exists in Innsbruck, the nearest bigger city from where I live. (And where also my working place is.)
**
Now, what’s the difference between let’s say, Baptists, Pentecostals and non-denominational Churches?**

in Christ,
Esdra

You have seen posts on Baptists, Pentecostals and this is specifically non-denominational oriented. Non-denominational is an attempt to state that we are open minded and invite any and all people tired of denominations to our church meeting. You have probably heard “we are just Christians”.

This is a Protestant church. You will find if you can read the statement of Faith, the bible alone, Faith alone, sometimes Calvinism & sometimes Armenianism and sometimes like Calvary Chapel a blend.

So it is a denomination. Huh? I like to use the example as follows. A thing named by any other name does not change the nature of the thing named. The thing that is named is by nature what it is.

A man is a sexual creature
A woman is a sexual creature
A non-man is a woman and by naming the woman as non-woman the nature of the thing named does not change.

A non-denominational church is the denomination of “non”. I can promise you that this is not an invention. I have no new ideas. You can research this for yourself on the web “the denomination of non”.

The Baptists as you know have changed their names to attract members, ie Saddleback, Rick Warren is a Baptist Church. Calvinism goes by the name Doctrine of Grace in Baptist circles.

Non-denomination is Protestant to attract members that just want to think they are just Christian when in fact they are Protestant of varying types. I often ask non-denominational Christians what type of Christian they are. The answer just Christian. I say then that there are 3 accepted Christian types, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant. After answering the questions concerning Bible alone, Faith alone, I inform they that they are Protestant. Many of these non-denominational people do not know that they are Protestant. .:thumbsup:

 

[Godith]

Non-denomination is Protestant to attract members that just want to think they are just Christian when in fact they are Protestant of varying types. I often ask non-denominational Christians what type of Christian they are. The answer just Christian. I say then that there are 3 accepted Christian types, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant. After answering the questions concerning Bible alone, Faith alone, I inform they that they are Protestant. Many of these non-denominational people do not know that they are Protestant. .:thumbsup:

I guess you could say that we are Protestant, in the sense that we are neither Orthodox nor Catholic. That is only one definition of the word Protestant, though.

Another would be 'Any of several denominations of Christianity that separated from the Roman Catholic Church based on theological or political differences during the Reformation.’ Since the Vineyard Movement was only founded in the 1980’s, one can’t really accuse us of being part of the Reformation.

Personally, I don’t like the name Protestant, and wouldn’t usually apply it to myself, because I’m not protesting against anything. I’m in favour of the Catholic Church. She is part of Christ’s Body on earth, and she is beautiful. I don’t agree with all Catholic teachings, but I’m not against the CC.

In fairness, I don’t think churches avoid lables like Baptist, or whatever to ‘attract members’. Forgive me, but you make is sound like you think it’s all a bit cynical, and an attempt to trick people. I think it is mainly to get away from those words which are divisive and emphasise the differences between Christian groups. We prefer to emphasise and focus on what we have in common with other churches, instead of what still, sadly, separates the family of God.

 

[CopticChristian]

I guess you could say that we are Protestant, in the sense that we are neither Orthodox nor Catholic.

Another would be *'Any of several denominations of Christianity that separated from the Roman Catholic Church

Personally, I don’t like the name Protestant,
, but I’m not against the CC.

In fairness, I don’t think churches avoid lables like Baptist, or whatever to ‘attract members’. Forgive me, but you make is sound like you think it’s all a bit cynical, and an attempt to trick people. I think it is mainly to get away from those words which are divisive and emphasise the differences between Christian groups. We prefer to emphasise and focus on what we have in common with other churches, instead of what still, sadly, separates the family of God.*

It is not uncommon for someone to realize that they have accepted Protestant thought. This engages you to be Protestant in thought but not protesting. The persistence of Protestanism is a persistence of the Protest. The Orthodox Church in the East and the OHCAC is talking about uniting. This would be difficult for Protestant beliefs as they vary.

There are common roots, Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterain/Reformed, Baptist and be aware that Baptists too do not believe they are Protestant. This is another discussion. The following are quotes from Guanophore. I suggest you find one of his posts, click on his name and read what is posted to put things in perspective. I believe it will teach you and I much.

The Catholic Church is not a “denomination”. It is the One Church founded by Jesus, from which all others have denominated. And with each and every denomination, more of the Gospel message has been lost.

 

[CopticChristian]

I guess you could say that we are Protestant, in the sense that we are neither Orthodox nor Catholic. That is only one definition of the word Protestant, though.

Another would be 'Any of several denominations of Christianity that separated from the Roman Catholic Church based on theological or political differences during the Reformation.’ Since the Vineyard Movement was only founded in the 1980’s, one can’t really accuse us of being part of the Reformation.

Personally, I don’t like the name Protestant, and wouldn’t usually apply it to myself, because I’m not protesting against anything. I’m in favour of the Catholic Church. She is part of Christ’s Body on earth, and she is beautiful. I don’t agree with all Catholic teachings, but I’m not against the CC.

In fairness, I don’t think churches avoid lables like Baptist, or whatever to ‘attract members’. Forgive me, but you make is sound like you think it’s all a bit cynical, and an attempt to trick people. I think it is mainly to get away from those words which are divisive and emphasise the differences between Christian groups. We prefer to emphasise and focus on what we have in common with other churches, instead of what still, sadly, separates the family of God.

Another thought. Imagine a conversation with someone that says “I’m just a Christian” followed by this.

Yes I know that what I think and believe was formulated by Catholic priests and a Catholic lawyer. Yes I know that most of what I have been taught was taken from the Catholic Church and certain elements were changed. I just prefer to think of myself as just a Christian.

This would be a different dialogue.

 

[Godith]

It is not uncommon for someone to realize that they have accepted Protestant thought. This engages you to be Protestant in thought but not protesting.

I do accept some (possibly most) Protestant thought. I wouldn’t self-identify as Protestant, because I don’t feel that word describes me very well, but you are welcome to call me that if you wish.

You may want to search on your own, Vineyard and Promise Keepers, Vineyard and Dominionism, Vineyard and 3rd wave movement. It is what you don’t know about what you are associating with that is sometimes as important as what you do know.

I have followed your suggestion, and read some of that Google throws up against those search terms. The only thing I can say is - Brother, don’t believe everything you read on the internet. The accusations I saw there are as confused and baseless as many you see made against the Catholic Church. It would take hours to unpick it all, and explain where these people are mistaken in what they are saying. As I said in a previous post, I have been in Vineyard for 15 years. In that time, I have heard teaching from many Vineyard pastors and theologians, and read books by them. I have never heard anything that equates to Gnosticism, which I would utterly reject as heretical and unBiblical.

Yes. I believe it is deceptive and cynical. There are few secrets to a person walking into a Catholic Church. You cannot join unless you study and since I am ignorant of that process I believe it is 6 months to a year of Catechesis.

I commend the Catholic Church for the way it inducts new members. I think it is great that you take such time and care to teach and catechise people before they become full members.

Membership in Protestant Churches is immediate and Catechesis takes place through Protestant churches in Protestant theology.

Obviously Protestant churches teach Protestant theology. What else would they do?

The ‘rules’ surrounding membership in Protestant (i.e. non-Catholic) churches differ widely. In my experience, full membership is rarely immediate. Usually some evidence of commitment, both to Christ, and to that particular faith community, is required. In my own church, what we don’t do is require people who are already Christian to ‘convert’. We accept the validity of Trinitarian baptism in any church (like Catholics ), and if a person is following Jesus, they are a Christian, regardless of which church they have previously attended.

If you knew nothing of Christianity? If you were honestly seeking what would be the historical Church, is it fair to not tell people what it is they are joining in the fullness of what it is they believe and profess? Yes I believe it is trickery.

Who says we aren’t telling people? If we are honest about what we believe, including being open about our origins, which we are, who is fooled? We don’t pretend to have a long tradition of our own. We are standing on the shoulders of giants, only there at all because of the saints who have gone before us, passing on the faith though history until now. And yes, many of those people were Catholic. No-one I know would deny that, because it’s historical fact.