Differences between Carmelite spirituality and Benedictine and Jesuit spiritualities

[Tis_Bearself]

I would be interested to hear people’s thoughts on how Carmelite spirituality differs from

• Benedictine spirituality
  and from
• Jesuit spirituality.

As I have already read some stuff on this matter, I would like to stress that I’m looking for people’s thoughts or observations, and not just links to pages where I can read about different spiritualiities.

Links are okay if you’re using them to support or illustrate some point you’re making.
I’m really looking for some (name removed by moderator)ut on this from people who practice one of the particular spiritualities or are familiar with this subject from thinking a lot about it.

 

[BoomerangToo]

These are my observations:

A man walked up to a Carmelite and a Jesuit and asked, “How many novenas must you say to get a Mercedes Benz?”
The Carmelite asked, “What’s a Mercedes Benz?” The Jesuit asked, “What’s a novena?”

A Jesuit, a Benedictine, and a Carmelite were walking along an old road, debating the greatness of their orders. Suddenly, an apparition of the Holy Family appeared in front of them, with Jesus in a manger and Mary and Joseph praying over him.
The Carmelite fell on his face, overcome with awe at the sight of God born in such poverty.The Benedictine fell to his knees, adoring the beautiful reflection of the Trinity and the Holy Family.
The Jesuit walked up to Joseph, put his arm around his shoulder, and said, “So, have you thought about where to send the boy to school?”

Three priests, a Benedictine, a Carmelite, and a Jesuit, were in the same hospice. All were near death. One evening, the Angel of Death appeared before them and informed them that it was their time. He said, however, that each could have a final request before accompanying him from this world.

The Benedictine went first and he asked to gaze upon the face of his Savior. In an instant the face of Christ appeared before him. He was satisfied and felt he could die with no regrets.

The Carmelite was next. He asked to touch the wounds in the hands and feet of Jesus before he died. Immediately, Christ appeared and invited him, as he did Thomas, to examine His wounds. The dying priest touched Christ’s hands and feet, wept with joy and was content and at peace. Finally the Angel of Death turned to the Jesuit and asked his final request. Without hesitation the Jesuit replied: “I’d like a second opinion.”

I hope this helps.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yeah, I actually found this joke that Maximilian75 posted on here some months ago to be helpful in grasping some basic differences between orders:

During a Eucharistic Congress, a number of priests from different orders are gathered in a church for Vespers. While they are praying, a fuse blows and all the lights go out.

The Benedictines continue praying from memory, without missing a beat.

The Jesuits begin to discuss whether the blown fuse means they are dispensed from the obligation to pray Vespers.

The Franciscans compose a song of praise for God’s gift of darkness.

The Dominicans revisit their ongoing debate on light as a signification of the transmission of divine knowledge.

The Carmelites fall into silence and slow, steady breathing.

The parish priest goes to the basement and replaces the fuse.

It and similar things left me with some questions though.

I’m not totally clear on how Carmelites differ from Benedictines. I wondered if it might be that the Benedictines are focused on the chanting and praying of the liturgical prayers, while the Carmelites are more contemplative. Yet the goal in both cases (getting closer to God, primarily through a prayer process) seems to be the same. So I am not clear on why they differ. (Also not clear on why there seem to be three sub-orders of Carmelites, but that’s a question for a different thread.)

Despite reading quite a bit, I am still having difficulty figuring out what exactly Jesuits do (except make people on this forum mad), especially now that we seem to have largely run out of unexplored/ unchristianized parts of the world to send them to evangelize, and we no longer have English Reformation or Cristiada situations going on where they are sneaking around a country hiding in priest holes to bring people the sacraments, and they aren’t even operating that many high schools and colleges any more. I keep hearing stories about how Jesuits don’t pray or have Marian devotions and it doesn’t seem to square with the Jesuit saints I’ve read about. To the extent there is any lay participation in Jesuit spirituality, it seems to be a more politicized imitation of the Franciscans. The Jesuit order seems to have an identity crisis.

 

[PapyrusDouay]

I keep hearing stories about how Jesuits don’t pray or have Marian devotions and it doesn’t seem to square with the Jesuit saints I’ve read about. To the extent there is any lay participation in Jesuit spirituality, it seems to be a more politicized imitation of the Franciscans. The Jesuit order seems to have an identity crisis.

I’ll leave commenting on Benedictine and Carmelite spirituality for someone more qualified. If no one posts anything i’ll make an attempt.

I will comment a little on Jesuit spirituality though.
Jesuits actually have one of the most developed, systematic, and structured spiritualities in the entire Church (aka Ignatian Spirituality). And remarkably so. Although Jesuits do not have any sort of third order, that i’m aware of, they’re spirituality is widely available and accessible. There are several aspects to it, but perhaps most notably is “discernment”, and not just in the context of discerning vocation, but also in discerning where God is active in one’s life, the lives of others, and the world (“finding God in all things”, as they say), it is a deeply “affective” spirituality, meaning it is focused on the heart and “movements of the heart”. Modern spiritual direction was largely developed by the Jesuits, in line with their spirituality, and to sum it up very generally, is basically, to guide people through their spiritual development, and guide them through learning to “discern” how God is working in their lives, and help them unstand the movements of the heart. They’ve also developed some pretty powerful forms of prayer, such as the Examen and an imagery based kind of lectio divina. If you’re familiar with St. Thomas Aquinas’ impact on philosophy and theology, St. ignatius of Loyola had, in my opinion, an equally strong impact on spiritual development within the Church. It permeates the seminaries and the spiritual pillar of diocesan priest formation in much the same way that Aquinas permeates the intellectual pillar. In my experience this has also been true in formation for religious life, but in a different way. You’ll also find elements of other distinct spiritualities within Ignatian spirituality, as St. Ignatius was greatly influenced by the lives of the Saints that came before him.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by a “politicized version of the Franciscans”, although i’d be happy to digest that a little…unlike Carmelite and Benedictine spirituality, I think that’s something I’d be much better suited to reflect on

I also don’t think Jesuits have an identity crisis. I’d argue they are firmly rooted in their spirituality, and for Jesuits, I think their spirituality IS their identity. As for their apostolates, while they have had a tendency to be active in certain ministries, their spirituality does not focused on any particular kind of ministry. Rather, whatever ministry they do is informed BY their spirituality, which permeates into it. This is true for my community as well. And I’d imagine that it would hold true for most religious orders not founded for a specific ministry.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by a “politicized version of the Franciscans”, although i’d be happy to digest that a little

It seems like their focus for lay involvement is primarily on going out and being active in the community, with an emphasis on social justice activism and politics. My view could be skewed by the fact that I met a lot of Jesuits in DC who were, naturally, concerned with/ involved with politics.

I know I’m pretty stupid about spiritual things quite often, but I don’t really understand why so much thought is needed to “discern” where God is acting in one’s life. I would think this would be pretty clear. I’ve tried the Examen and it seemed to be belaboring the obvious. I must not be doing it right.

 

[BoomerangToo]

Despite reading quite a bit, I am still having difficulty figuring out what exactly Jesuits do (except make people on this forum mad), especially now that we seem to have largely run out of unexplored/ unchristianized parts of the world to send them to evangelize

Well, obviously from my answer above, I don’t know squat about the religious orders, but I do know that the Jesuits, like you said, have been some of the most amazing evangelists. These guys were like Superman, Batman, and Spiderman all rolled into one. They certainly have a great history. I think of them as the “Git 'er done, even if you have to break the rules” types.

I like reading about early American history, particularly about the Indians. I found this book about Fr. Pierre-Jean De Smet, S.J., to be very entertaining and enlightening. He evangelized the Indians of the Rocky Mountains and acted as a liaison between the Indians and the US government because the Indians trusted him.
https://smile.amazon.com/Life-Fathe...F8&qid=1545804270&sr=8-2&keywords=fr.+de+smet

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Despite reading quite a bit, I am still having difficulty figuring out what exactly Jesuits do (except make people on this forum mad), especially now that we seem to have largely run out of unexplored/ unchristianized parts of the world to send them to evangelize, and we no longer have English Reformation or Cristiada situations going on where they are sneaking around a country hiding in priest holes to bring people the sacraments, and they aren’t even operating that many high schools and colleges any more.

I don’t think the Jesuits have an identity issue.

I see the Jesuits still reaching out to the margins, as Pope Francis says. In the US, that means focusing on the economically disadvantaged, racially/ethnically marginalized, atheists (from the standpoint of evangelization a la Fr. Spitizer), homosexuals (from the standpoint of incorporating the SSA as fully into the church as possible a la that Jesuit who shall not be named because he causes people to go into fits on CAF), those in recovery, etc. Some of these initiatives are more successful than others. Some are more problematic than others.

In the United States, we have politicized this kind of outreach effort and made its synonymous with the political left. But, as Catholics I think we understand that Catholic social teaching is about human dignity not “right” vs. “left” political calculus.

This seeming inability to untangle Catholic social teaching from the political divide here in the US is one of our greatest failings, in my opinion. So, it’s up to the laity to untangle ourselves from the political divisions of the day and focus on the true Catholic meaning of social justice.

To be honest, I think Jesuits are largely going about their mission as they always have, and are unjustly maligned for it (as they have been through their history).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yes, I know the Jesuits have done great things in the past. Some of my favorite saints were Jesuits. I have an admiration for the order.

They don’t seem to be doing that stuff any more. The only Jesuits one hears about lately are Fr. Martin and that other guy who purportedly said the Devil was imaginary. Oh, and Pope Francis of course, who seems very focused on helping the poor and oppressed, which is laudable and I’m not knocking it, but see my comments about how Jesuits these days seem to be a social justice group more than anything else.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I see the Jesuits still reaching out to the margins, as Pope Francis says. In the US, that means focusing on the economically disadvantaged, racially/ethnically marginalized, atheists (from the standpoint of evangelization a la Fr. Spitizer), homosexuals (from the standpoint of incorporating the SSA as fully into the church as possible a la that Jesuit who shall not be named because he causes people to go into fits on CAF), those in recovery, etc. Some of these initiatives are more successful than others. Some are more problematic than others.

In the United States, we have politicized this kind of outreach effort and made its synonymous with the political left. But, as Catholics I think we understand that Catholic social teaching is about human dignity not “right” vs. “left” political calculus.

Setting aside the gay people for a moment, who are arguably not that “marginalized” in US society - and I’m saying this from the perspective of somebody who generally is supportive of gays on this forum and in real life - this brings us back to what I said above about Jesuits not seeming too different from Franciscans nowadays.

This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but we already have tons and tons of Franciscans helping the poor and oppressed. So it can be hard for me to see how Jesuits differ, except from the standpoint of taking up various social justice positions in a political way.

Jesuits used to be renowned partly for running educational institutions, and that fits in well with the spiritual direction, formation, discernment of God’s will in your life, etc concept, because people in high school and in college need that kind of formation and guidance in a big way. They are still doing some of this, but not as much as they used to be doing.

And of course in today’s political climate, they don’t go trying to evangelize foreign lands where they aren’t welcomed by the inhabitants and getting martyred over it.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Anyway, this entire thread is totally off topic because nobody is addressing the question in the title of the thread, which is:

Differences Between Carmelite Spirituality and Benedictine and Jesuit Spiritualities

Somehow this has drifted off into people telling me a bunch of stuff about Jesuits that mostly is not pertaining to spirituality, and I’m partly responsible for the drift I guess, but could we please get back on topic or I’m going to have to bail on my own thread.

I specifically would like to know about the differences in spirituality.

Can anyone address?

 

[adgloriam]

They don’t seem to be doing that stuff any more. The only Jesuits one hears about lately are Fr. Martin and that other guy who purportedly said the Devil was imaginary. Oh, and Pope Francis of course, who seems very focused on helping the poor and oppressed, which is laudable and I’m not knocking it, but see my comments about how Jesuits these days seem to be a social justice group more than anything else.

A brief comment, when the USCCB wrote a document against using the Enneagram it was mainly because -from what I know- some Jesuits were writing about its use (I have read books from that period by Jesuits talking about the subject). So, after the USCCB document, the former written production of those Jesuits on the subject became invalid. And, I must say, it reflects negatively on those individual priests and the order as a whole.

In some countries, where there’s a vocation crisis, you’ll have roughly 1 Jesuit per institution. Meaning you get 1 Jesuit per school/retreat center they are running. Some will take up key positions, like advising youngsters at a specific college and so forth…

Now, historically the Jesuits have ample freedom to do some experimental reflection - and write about it. They aren’t necessarily constrained to certain avenues of reflection or on their objects of reflection, as long as it keeps within faith and morals - as defined and constrained at time of writing.

Here it gets tricky, I feel the Jesuits writing about the Enneagram should have been stopped/corrected by the order itself before any need for the USCCB document.

(So you see the freedom they have in their intellectual production, and there are contemporary examples where I personally don’t like avenues and objects of reflection some members of the order are taking - perhaps a necessary error- that is also intellectual freedom at its essence.)

 

[adgloriam]

Differences Between Carmelite Spirituality and Benedictine and Jesuit Spiritualities

Main difference always remits to the rules of the order.

The Benedictines are active while Carmelites are contemplative.

The actives focus more on sanctity through daily chores (Ora et Labora), the contemplatives on prayer and contemplation. That is reflected on the number of hours per day they dedicate to specific practices.

Both Benedictines and Carmelites are monastic, meaning their life is strictly bound to one community and physical monastery/convent. A Benedictine who’s a medical doctor could be authorized by his superior to work full-time in a nearby hospital, as long as he’d be back to the monastery at the end of the day. A Carmelite could not have such a full-time job, he would be bound to the community and contemplation.

The Jesuits are different in that they aren’t monastic and thus you see them historically on missionary work, sometimes alone or in pairs, far away from any community or their peers. They also aren’t bound to pray the full liturgy of the hours if their activities need take precedence over it. Thus they have more free time for study and active vocation work.

Spirituality would remit to their rules. The Benedictines will follow the saint Benedict rule with varying degrees of observance, the Carmelites will focus mostly on their rule and the writings of Saint Teresa de Ávila and saint John of the Cross. The Jesuits would take mostly from Saint Ignatius rules for discernment. And differences would remit to both those bodies of work and differing practices. By living different life styles they draw differing experiences and gains.

 

[adgloriam]

I also don’t think Jesuits have an identity crisis. I’d argue they are firmly rooted in their spirituality, and for Jesuits, I think their spirituality IS their identity.

There is one Jesuit I know and we hold the same academic degree from the same University. Enough to say that alone makes us remarkably similar in background and formation.

So one day I had a serious problem and wrote him about it.

His response was not to my satisfaction, he failed completely to address the problem at hand or at helping me.

So I write him every Christmas and Easter that he doesn’t forget his own shortcomings.

 

[Sirach2]

Spirituality would remit to their rules. The Benedictines will follow the saint Benedict rule with varying degrees of observance, the Carmelites will focus mostly on their rule and the writings of Saint Teresa de Ávila and saint John of the Cross.

I am a professed lay Carmelite. It is true that there are three orders, the friars, the cloistered sisters, and the lay apostolate, but we are all united and share equally in the spirituality of the entire order.

Our Rule focuses on striving to live contemplatively; that is, to walk in God’s presence as we go about our daily living. We are Marian, devoted to Our Blessed Mother, and we study in community the writings of the saints mentioned above.

Primarily, our Rule asks of us the recitation of morning and evening Divine Office, daily Mass as far as possible, and a half hour of mental prayer daily. Lay Carmelites do not cloister themselves, but engage in apostolic activity that is drawn from inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We strive to be Marys while acting like Marthas, I suppose is a good analogy. I hope this is helpful to you.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Not sure which Jesuit you are referring to, but Fr. Richard Rohr, who is a Franciscan, wrote on the Enneagram extensively.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Regarding Ignatian discernment. One of the big things that Ignatius warned about was that sometimes the “Evil One” uses what we perceive to be good to to bring us to his side.

Here is a brief synopsis of the Three Types of Person meditation from the Spiritual Exercises that I took from here

The First Type keeps saying that he would like to stop being so dependent on all the things which he possesses and which seem to get in the way of his giving his life unreservedly to God. This type talks about the importance of saving his soul, but when death comes, he is too busy about his possessions to have taken any steps toward serving God.

The Second Type would like to be free of all attachments which get in the way of his relationship with God. But this type would rather work harder or fast or pray more — really do just about anything but face the problem which he feels holds him back in his relationship with God. He acts as if he is negotiating with God, trying to buy God off. So though this type may do many good things, he keeps running from the better and more honest way to face the issue.

The Third Type would like to be free of any attachment which gets in the way of God’s call to further life. This one’s whole effort is to be in balance, ready to move in any direction that the call from God may take him. Whatever seems better for the service and praise of God our Lord is his whole desire and choice. Meanwhile, this one strives to act in such a way that he seemingly is free of any attachments. He makes efforts neither to want to retain his possessions nor to want to give them away, unless the service and praise of God our Lord is the God-given motivation for his action. As a result, the graced desire to be better able to serve God our Lord is the cause of his accepting or letting go of anything.

 

[commenter]

The development of the Spiritual Exercises was an enormous landmark in the Church. St Ignatius wasn’t the first to write about conversion and renewal, but nothing like this had been done, in a structured format.

All the “renewal” programs that came later, Life in the Spirit, Cursillo, Opus Dei, and various Parish Missions, owe much to this.

But I live in a city that has had a huge Jesuit presence for over a century, with major institutions, parishes, formerly a retreat house. I have known countless Catholics who had
contact with the Jesuits, but not one person has mentioned the Spiritual Exercises.

 

[Shasta-Rose]

And there’s Fr. Spitzer. He’s on EWTN most Wednesdays at 2:00. I think he’s amazing. They have call-ins and he answers questions. I just love listening to him. He has a couple of Web sites,too, including the latest, crediblecatholic.com.

 

[PapyrusDouay]

It seems like their focus for lay involvement is primarily on going out and being active in the community, with an emphasis on social justice activism and politics. My view could be skewed by the fact that I met a lot of Jesuits in DC who were, naturally, concerned with/ involved with politics.

I know I’m pretty stupid about spiritual things quite often, but I don’t really understand why so much thought is needed to “discern” where God is acting in one’s life. I would think this would be pretty clear. I’ve tried the Examen and it seemed to be belaboring the obvious. I must not be doing it right.

I see what you meant. That may very well be due to the nature of being where you are, as I have not encountered that much where I am. What I do see more often, in regards to where laity are concerned, are their retreat houses, which are open to anyone, lay, priests, and religious. There aren’t too many Jesuit parishes that I’m aware of, although the one near where I grew up used to offer the spiritual exercises for parishoners.

It sounds like you have a pretty good grasp on discerning where God is in your life. But remember that what may be obvious to some is not always obvious to everyone. I think you hit the nail on the head with “I don’t really understand why so much thought is needed to discern where God is acting in one’s life”…in some things the less “thought” the better, instead of “thinking” most people need more “praying”. Ignatian discernment focuses on sorting through thoughts and emotions and figuring out how God is speaking to one’s heart, amidst all these other distractions.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Thank you, this is really helpful.

Somehow I was under the impression all these years that Benedictines were seen more as contemplatives because they spent so much time praying and singing the Office. I see I misunderstood the concept of “contemplative”.

As for enneagrams, I cannot understand why Jesuits or anyone else would get so wrapped up in them they needed to be told to stop by the Pope. When I pick a hill I want to die on, it’ s not going to be the umpteenth “business model personality test”, whether it’s Enneagram or Myers-Briggs or whatever. For any clergy or religious to be getting all wrapped up in that instead of in prayer is just weird to me.