Differences between Carmelite spirituality and Benedictine and Jesuit spiritualities

[PapyrusDouay]

I specifically would like to know about the differences in spirituality.

Can anyone address?

I still have hope that someone with more formal background in these spiritualities will comment some more. But i’ll try to dive into it a little bit. But keep in mind my own descriptions are heavily influenced through my own background and spirituality, so the way I describe things, I can almost guaruntee you, is not how a Benedictine or Carmelite may describe it, but I’ll do my best.

For Carmelite Spirituality, I think the important piece to remember is that it is “eremetical”, that is, they’re “hermits”. Even if an individual is not ACTUALLY a hermit, that concept is key to Carmelite spirituality…in my non-Carmelite opinion. That is, it’s a solitary spirituality, where the individual spiritually retreats to the desert/cave/Mount Carmel, where they seek union with God. Carmelite spirituality is highly contemplative. In this context, contemplation refers to the union with God that they seek, a “Divine Indwelling” (Carmelite term). It is to be totally and mystically absorbed in the presence of God, or the dwelling of Him within, as it’s not anything we ourselves can achieve. Rather, it is only a gift from God.

For Benedictines, it’s a little difference. Like Mt. Carmel, monasticism has its roots in the “Desert”. However, unlike Mt. Carmel and hermits, monastics brought their spirituality to a more communal environment, so while sharing some similarities, they do not live an eremetical lifestyle, and community is an important aspect of the life. For the Benedictine, “Ora et Labora” is the foundation of their life, and they seek to balance a cycle of Prayer, Work, and Rest. St. Benedicts rule deals in large part with how to do that in a healthy way. It seems to me that the routines are and rhythm to the way of life is important as well.

Jesuit Spirituality has been mostly addressed in past posts, but to contrast that this with Carmelite and Benedictine spiritualities in one post, there is a strong emphasis on discerning how God is working in one’s life, as well as the world around us with Ignatian spirituality.

Carmelite and Benedictine spiritualities were adapted in a way to make them livable for the secular world. Jesuit/ Ignatian spirituality hasn’t really had to make many adaptations, as it was specifically designed by St. Ignatius to be available and helpful to everyone, even those working and living in the secular world. The only major adaptation was done by Ignatius himself, when he took the 30-day Spiritual Exercises retreat, and adapted it to a 30-week retreat so busy people could fit it into their everyday lives with minimal disruption to their normal schedule.

I hope this is somewhat helpful.

 

[adgloriam]

Benedictines were seen more as contemplatives

I didn’t express myself correctly, if I’m not mistaken the Benedictans are contemplatives but less than the Carmelites and even less than the Carthusians. The Carthusians are generally held as the extreme example of contemplative.

So, whereas the Benedictans are renowned for farming, and even terraforming (changing the course of small streams to build lakes and plant entire forests), the mainstay of the Carthusians would be reading the bible and praying as much as possible -thinking about it- with every bit of time they could find, and so they are even more ‘contemplative’.

‘Active’ would mean anything that isn’t praying, reading the bible, or meditating on God.

they needed to be told to stop by the Pope.

It wasn’t the pope but the USCCB - if I’m not mistaken. I’ll give one example: A young medical doctor after graduation wanted to become a priest and Jesuit and went to the seminary. In the process of becoming a priest and Jesuit he was sent to Berkley for a PhD. Whilst there he wrote a book that I read and was brilliant (a small extract from his PhD work I think), but in that book he did include a brief sub-chapter about the possibility of using an Enneagram. So I was personally dismayed to see such a brilliant mind had been ill-advised during that time period on that particular point (and I’ll leave the USCCB document to explain what’s wrong with the Enneagram.) Otherwise, an good book without reprehension.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Thank you, that was helpful.

Carmelite and Benedictine spiritualities were adapted in a way to make them livable for the secular world. Jesuit/ Ignatian spirituality hasn’t really had to make many adaptations, as it was specifically designed by St. Ignatius to be available and helpful to everyone, even those working and living in the secular world. The only major adaptation was done by Ignatius himself, when he took the 30-day Spiritual Exercises retreat, and adapted it to a 30-week retreat so busy people could fit it into their everyday lives with minimal disruption to their normal schedule.

If Jesuit spirituality is already adapted to be available to the secular world, it’s a bit disappointing that they seem to have really limited lay order participation compared to other orders. In particular, I would have expected the Jesuits to have something like Opus Dei and I would likely be much more comfortable with a Jesuit model of that type of organization than the one that has evolved.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Ah, I see. The Vatican did criticize the Enneagram in 2003 in a document addressing “new age” practices.

 

[adgloriam]

I also read the 2003 Vatican document on “new age” but that was much broader in scope. I didn’t actually remember they touched on the Enneagram by name.

 

[tad]

The Benedictine sisters that used to be in Tucson would do the ennegram. I never had any interest in it.

 

[Athanasiy]

Thank you for the interesting topic of discussion.
Is it possible to ask in the course of the discussion which of the above mentioned monastic orders participated in military companies? military innovations? heroic battles?
Was there a study of military art among the monks in the Middle Ages? (something like the modern Shaolin in China)

 

[tad]

Here’s what I know about the different orders from personal experience.

Carmelites: we had a retired Carmelite priest saying our daily masses for a while. He was ‘low church’ and had very simple, pared down masses. His homilies seemed sort of out there which is probably a result of their contemplative lifestyle. The lay Carmelites I know are a little out there as well. I was in a Bible study with a group of them that freaked me out so bad I took off running. There’s a number of lay Carmelites who work at a soup kitchen for the homeless that I just met. I’m hoping to hang out withith them in the new year.

Benedictines: we used to go to mass at the convent when the sisters were still in town and I was friends with one of their artists. They seem to be the most industrius of the three orders. They were always up to something.

Jesuits: @Rob2 introduced me to Jesuit spirituality on another forum. Of the three orders this is the one I’m most attracted to since they seem to be able to push my personal spiritual envelope. They seem to run the gamut. Last Christmas I went to a traditional OF mass that was concelebrated by a couple of Jesuits but, then again the Jesuit priest who celebrated the Christmas masses where I’m visiting didn’t seem to shy away from some liturgical irregularities.

And that sums up my personal take on the differences of the three orders.

 

[adgloriam]

military art among the monks in the Middle Ages?

Military order (religious society) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Is it possible to ask in the course of the discussion which of the above mentioned monastic orders participated in military companies? military innovations? heroic battles?
Was there a study of military art among the monks in the Middle Ages? (something like the modern Shaolin in China)

The monastic orders we’re talking about in this thread would not have been participating in anything military.

St. Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, had a military background as he had intended to pursue a military career. An injury resulted in multiple operations and prolonged recovery time, during which he began to read spiritual materials because he had nothing else to do, and ended up deciding to form the Jesuits instead of continuing with his military ambitions. He set up the Jesuits on military-type principles but their goal was evangelization around the world, not fighting. They tended to do a lot of undercover and sometimes political stuff, but didn’t go marching into battle fighting the enemy.

Carmelites and Benedictines to my knowledge had zero connection to the military and did not practice self-defense arts or any of that.

“Military orders” are chivalric orders of lay people, not religious orders of religious priests, brothers, monks, nuns, sisters etc.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

All the “renewal” programs that came later, Life in the Spirit, Cursillo, Opus Dei, and various Parish Missions, owe much to this.

I do not mean to put down these programs as I know they have each helped many people, but I often wonder why we need so many different “renewal” programs. Especially since they are not all equally available in every area. I know some of them target different groups (working professionals, youth, women etc.) but there still seems to be just too many of them and all with the same goal of getting closer to God.

 

[CilladeRoma]

just too many of them and all with the same goal of getting closer to God.

Not to pick on you personally, I have had this conversation in real life, but you say this like its a bad thing. Why?

So what if there 100 different ways to help people connect to God? So long as it doesn’t go against established Church teaching outright and helps to bring people to a better understanding of their faith, what difference does it make?

 

[commenter]

So what if there 100 different ways to help people connect to God? So long as it doesn’t go against established Church teaching outright and helps to bring people to a better understanding of their faith, what difference does it make?

You set the standard too low. Either a program affirms, explains, and helps people live out Catholic dogma, or it doesn’t. My Diocese spent a lot of money and credibility in programs that didn’t outright contradict Catholic doctrine, but were mostly a waste of time, in bearing any apparent fruit in worship or practice of the Faith. The temptation is to equate psychology with conversion.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So what if there 100 different ways to help people connect to God? So long as it doesn’t go against established Church teaching outright and helps to bring people to a better understanding of their faith, what difference does it make?

Many of them seem to be doing essentially the same thing with minor variations, so I question the need for having so many small organizations, seemingly competing with each other for members. From a management standpoint, it seems to me that some of them could become stronger, more accessible and more visible, by joining forces rather than fracturing Catholics into yet more small groups.

 

[jack63]

I’m surprised nobody has said or least emphasized the more basic differences between the spirituality of these orders…

Central to the Jesuits is “finding God in all things”…yes prayer is part of that, but also part of that is interactions with all people, cultures, science, etc.

For example Pierre Teilhard de Chardin SJ considered scientific research as a type of adoration. He also said “We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.”

Spirituality - Jesuits.org

Benedictines and Carmelites are focus on mostly finding god through prayer and contemplation. They likely would not of said what Teilhard said.

Both ways to find god are wonderful. Sometimes at different points in our life one way will work better than the other. That’s ok.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Benedictines and Carmelites are focus on mostly finding god through prayer and contemplation. They likely would not of said what Teilhard said.

Why not? +10 char

 

[adgloriam]

Tis_Bearself:

just too many of them and all with the same goal of getting closer to God.

Not to pick on you personally, I have had this conversation in real life, but you say this like its a bad thing. Why?

So what if there 100 different ways to help people connect to God? So long as it doesn’t go against established Church teaching outright and helps to bring people to a better understanding of their faith, what difference does it make?

Not to be controversial @CilladeRoma but a healthy dose of prudence does no harm. The Enneagram is one of many such examples. Until finally the Vatican stepped in and put a stop to it.

We could reverse the question: what fruit did the Enneagram bring (just one of many examples, did it bring folks closer to God, the Vatican says nay)? I dare say no good fruit came of it. [It did add a ton of confusion and years of wasted time, lending credibility to wayward tendencies. Plenty of esoterics saw it add to their authority and mumbo-jumbo, the one’s who knew it was no good had their sound opinion questioned, and it may very well have caused scandal to those feeble in their faith.]

You mentioned one Franciscan, it’s funny cause daily I walk by Saint Anthony’s birthplace. Saint Anthony’s nickname was:“the hammer of heretics”. The saint and doctor of the church was known to put things in no uncertain terms…

Certain kinds of faux-spirituality are all too comfortable and self-serving, that is their only end and aim. As pope Francis has said:“Faith bothers”.

 

[otjm]

As to the Jesuits seeming to be a social justice group (and I am not arguing with you), there is the Gospel passage by Christ: “Whatsoever you do to the least of these, you do to me.”

Having had a great uncle who was a Jesuit missionary in China before Mao took over, and having had the privilege of attending a Jesuit high school before some of the craziness set in, I tend, like you, to remember some of the excellent ones. I am also of the opinion that a significant part of the order seems to have lost sight of significant parts of our faith. Sadly, those who have been on the “outer side of the outer edge” have painted the whole order for many observers.

 

[jack63]

“Why would a Benedictine or Carmelite likely said what Teilhard said?”

It is hard to disentangle the charisms or purposes of these orders from their spirituality. Benedictines and Carmelites have monasteries that have a deep spiritual meaning to their order. This is great. There is no such thing as Jesuit Monastery. Jesuits don’t need go some place physically to fully engaged in the purpose of their order…This is why I would say

“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.”

…is more likely something a Jesuit would say.

As for scientific research being adoration. While there are certainly deeply educated Benedictines and Carmelites who are scientists, there aren’t nearly as many as there are Jesuits. Education has been a core of the Jesuit charism from the start or its order. St. Ignatius helped his order found schools. Education is not really at the core of Benedictines or Carmelites purpose.

There is some misunderstanding that Jesuits are only missionaries, or that Jesuit’s have only recently been interested in education. This is not true. Education has been part of the Jesuit’s Charism from the start.

 

[commenter]

Sadly, those who have been on the “outer side of the outer edge” have painted the whole order for many observers.

Your post is fair, and accurate. I would just add that it wasn’t just the minority that went bad, it involved leadership that condoned it.

This leadership collapse doesn’t make Jesuits spiritually any less valuable for those who seek it out, it just means a lot fewer will seek it out.