Differences between Carmelite spirituality and Benedictine and Jesuit spiritualities

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I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise.

I don’t follow the order, so it is hard for me to say whether the leadership has it’s head back together or not. My pastor for about 20 years, now retired, is a Jesuit and exhibited none of the “outre” that the order was being painted as owning in its entirety.

I have long been of the opinion (and seen enough that appears to confirm it) that wherever God is, the devil is right behind. What better tactic to destroy God’s warriors than to pierce their armor?
 
What gets me these days are some of the jokes about Jesuits not praying, such as the one where a guy wants a Ferrari very badly so he goes around asking members of different orders if they will pray a Novena with him to help him get the Ferrari. He asks a Franciscan and the Franciscan responds, “What’s a Ferrari?” He asks a Jesuit and the Jesuit responds, “What’s a Novena?”

It seems like all the great Jesuit saints and martyrs were praying all the time. I cannot imagine that St. Jean de Brebeuf, St. Isaac Jogues, and St. Francis Xavier weren’t praying up a storm as they faced hostile people and in the case of the first two were brutally tortured and martyred. One of my favorite Jesuits, Blessed Miguel Pro, was very prayerful and witnesses say he went into ecstasy and levitated at the last Mass he said before being arrested.

I hope there are still some (many? ) Jesuits out there who say prayers sometimes. Maybe not in the same way as a Benedictine or a Carmelite, but at least a novena or Rosary once in a while.
 
Well, I know one Jesuit who does. He had been at Berkeley, but for years - more like decades - he has been a Trappist monk. Some years ago he was the presider at a Sunday Mass and his homily took the Gospel reading and integrated it with work that Mother Theresa had been doing. He was kind enough to send me his notes of the homily.
 
What gets me these days are some of the jokes about Jesuits not praying, such as the one where a guy wants a Ferrari very badly so he goes around asking members of different orders if they will pray a Novena with him to help him get the Ferrari. He asks a Franciscan and the Franciscan responds, “What’s a Ferrari?” He asks a Jesuit and the Jesuit responds, “What’s a Novena?”
btw…depending on how you take this joke it may or may not be funny… It’s kinda of funny to joke (in the right context) about the different ways Jesuits pray…The Jesuits imagination prayer is unique, deep and meaningful…for example. To joke that Jesuits (i.e. including current Jesuits) don’t pray is not funny.

The one about the Jesuit trying to convince Joseph to send Jesus to a Jesuit school is funny…
 
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True. Today’s Jesuits seem to be associated with an abandonment of tradition and an embrace of heterodoxy, even heresy. I was listening to one of the faithful, orthodox priests (I can’t remember his name), who said the Jesuits have “gone off the rails”.
 
The Jesuits are obliged to pray the LotH but are not required to do it as a community. Praying it by themselves is what most of the Jesuits I know do.

The Jesuits also have a fourth vow of teaching.
 
Jesuits aren’t especially known for the rosary. Their standard prayer is Ignatian in origin, the Examen.

And the Jesuits’ fourth vow is obedience to the Pope in carrying out his missions.
 
Jesuits aren’t especially known for the rosary. Their standard prayer is Ignatian in origin, the Examen.
Jesuits have prayed the Rosary in the past. St. Ignatius developed an “Ignatian way” of praying it. The Jesuits in Hiroshima credited the Rosary with saving them from the atomic bomb blast.


https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...ed-the-atomic-bomb-thanks-to-the-rosary-69261

Here’s some Jesuits in UK promoting the praying of the Rosary and giving some pointers on what to think about when praying it

https://www.jesuit.org.uk/blog/praying-pope-may

Here’s a current version of Ignatian-style rosary meditations developed by Brother Koller, SJ in California (promoted by Fr. Martin, among others)

https://prepase.weebly.com/uploads/8/6/4/5/8645625/chur_devot...rosary-st._ignatius_method.doc
 
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The Carmelites focus on prayer. They study the Carmelite Doctors of the Church on prayer, and also Carmelite saints canonized fairly recently.

The Benedictines, from what I have seen and heard about, are excellent with liturgy. When visiting a Benedictine Monastery a few years ago I observed a very devout display of that.

Of course, Carmelites pray the Liturgy of the Hours also, and Benedictines are deep pray-ers. However I do see that there is an emphasis on their particular charism.

I don’t know too much about the Jesuits.

Peace,

Dorothy, …Third Order Lay Carmelite
 
Thanks Dorothy. Can you expand a bit more on the difference between prayer and liturgy, as you see it?

Liturgy, to my knowledge, is the public prayer of the Church.

When you say “prayer” are you meaning more like a private prayer or private devotion as opposed to the public prayer?
 
I didn’t say that Jesuits don’t pray the rosary. Some do, some don’t, just like other Catholics. On the other hand, if you’re interested in a Jesuit’s prayer life, be aware that Ignatius mandated that they pray the Examen twice a day.
 
Yes, I’m aware of the Examen, I’ve tried to pray it myself even. It did not work for me very well.

I am sure that is not the only prayer Jesuits say all day, although one could call it their signature prayer.
 
When I said prayer I was thinking about both the private and the public prayer of the Church that the person focuses on.

Liturgy is the public prayer of the Church which is Mass, and when people, whether in an order or not, pray the Liturgy of the Hours.

I hope I articulated that correctly,
 
The raison d’etre of a son or daughter of Saint Benedict IS the liturgy…the opus Dei as Saint Benedict referred to it. The monastic community and the monastic day is centered around the opus Dei…the gathering for the Liturgy of the Hours and for the Mass.

Everything in the monastery is ordered to that purpose, including the work of the monks that is done that constitutes the labora in the motto Ora et labora.

All else being equal, the Benedictine ideal would be a monastery that is self-contained and governed by the Abbot – or the Abbess if it is a community of nuns.

Reformed sons and daughters of Saint Benedict, notably the Trappists, continue to prefer Saint Benedict’s admonition to work with their hands to sustain the community. Benedictines and Cistercians other than the Trappists are more given to sustaining their communities through intellectual endeavours, such as schools, colleges and universities and in accepting to staff parishes at the request of the local diocesan bishop.

The Rule of Saint Benedict, which is eminently readable and readily available online, delineates how the monastic life is to be lived and in so doing, explicates the pillars of Benedictine spirituality.

The practice of lectio divina is an excellent example of Benedictine contemplation within the paradigm of the Benedictine school of spirituality. Benedictine monasticism puts also a heavy emphasis on community and living in community.

Carmelites, at their origin, were eremetical. They lived the life of hermits on Mount Carmel in the Holy Land, under the Bishop of Jerusalem, during the time when Christians had re-occupied the Holy Land. As that historical epoch ended, they became refugees to Europe and embraced a reform and renewal of their community which was modeled on the mendicants and the friars movement.

The Benedictine vows of Obedience, Stability and Conversatio morum are not what is professed by the Carmelite but Poverty, Chastity and Obedience. The Carmelite charism retains its eremetical quality, although that is nevertheless lived out in community.

Although Benedict lived for a time as a hermit, that is not a reality at the heart of Benedictineism.

The Carmelite approach to mental prayer and to contemplation is a more affective approach to contemplative life than the intellectual approach of the Dominicans or the Benedictine approach described above.

The liturgy of the hours will not have the same height of occupation or execution for a Carmelite as for a Benedictine.

Personal practices of ascetism in terms of physical penance, fasting and abstinence, mortification, and mental prayer as part of the path of the spiritual life will be more regimented for Carmelites that for Benedictines.
 
cont’d

Succinctly beyond the above, the men who are Carmelites will be more friars while the Benedictines will always be at the center of who they are monks. Their whole lives are differently ordered.

Benedictines who belong to autonomous monasteries are gathered into minimally intrusive congregations which come together ultimately in a confederation, the head of which has very limited authority…the Abbot Primate.

Carmelites will belong to a monastery which is part of a province and a prior provincial with all the provinces united under a Superior General to whom the Carmelites owe their ultimate obedience.

Also, it is to be remembered that while the Carmelite family has grown closer since Vatican II, there are canonically two distinct branches that constitute that family. The Ancient Observance and the Teresian Reform which is also known as the Discalced Observance. Each operates under its respective Superior General with differences in observances and customs. The latter is much more based on the teachings of Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross and Therese of Lisieux.

In that last regard, though, the Benedictines have seen the reform of Citeaux as well as the reform of La Trappe…and other off-shoots from the root that Benedict established in the 500s.

They are distinct schools of spirituality…distinct paths of the spiritual life. They are however not totally dissimilar and will share points of commonality. Typically, one called to one path would not find the other path as pleasing as the path of their own vocation.
 
My experience(s):
Jesuits dont have much prayer together unless they are concelebrating a Mass.
The other orders do.
Jesuits are really supposed to be retreat masters according to some. They often talk about the Examen. They have their spiritual exercices. And are the parish Priests many converts meet.
I guess the benedictines are the Most musical order. The sing. This is why the Jesuits are Good for the converts. Spiritual direction and such.
I Think that Jesuits are interesting but…they dont sing that much. I like the more tradition Benedictines with their nice Liturgies.
 
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