Differences Between Catholic and Methodist?

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Wabrams,

Did you write,“That’s kinda funny b/c we were always taught that Mary was a vrigin when Jesus was concieved and it was Immaculate Consumption. I can’t recall anything different ever coming out of a Methodist’s mouth. But you’re absolutely right that be don’t pray to Mary. Why should we? Why pray to her for intercession when you can ask the big man yourself?”

Are you aware of the fact that you have TWICE slapped our Catholic faces?
  1. The Immaculate Conception (not consumption- one slap) occured at Mary’s conception. Do you think the Father would not prerare a pristine vessel for His Son? Mary was concieved Immaculately , meaning she did not have the stain of Original Sin.
    2.“Ask the big man yourself”. #2 ! Who are you to be giving nicknames like “Big Man” to the Most Holy Father? Would you retract that? We would never call Our Father in Heaven, “BIG MAN”.
I assume you know the meaning of the word, “consumption”. It is an acronym for Tuberculosis, a lung disease.
 
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wabrams:
I know Jesus was the result of the Virgin Birth. Unless I’m having a brain cramp, Mary wasn’t born out of Immaculate Conception, Jesus was.
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Here’s the official definition of the Immaculate Conception:

“The most holy Virgin Mary was, in the first moment of her conception, by a unique gift of grace and privilege by almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ the Redeemer of mankind, preserved free from all stain of original sin…”

Source: Modern Catholic Dictionary, John A. Hardon, S.J.
 
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wabrams:
But you’re absolutely right that be don’t pray to Mary. Why should we? Why pray to her for intercession when you can ask the big man yourself?
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Well, we pray to Mary (ask for her intercession) for many reasons. (1) She is our mother, and we always run to Mom when we want something important. Jesus is our brother, so Mary is our mother. Mary also is Mother of the Church. (2) We ask for her prayers because it get results – big time. Her prayers were powerful on earth (remember Cana?), and they’re even more powerful in heaven. (3) We ask for her prayers because that’s part of our culture; we’ve been doing it since the first century A.D. There are prayers to Mary carved into the necropolis where St. Peter is buried in Rome, and in the catacombs – everywhere there were Christians in the early Church, there is evidence of prayers to Mary and the Saints. *It’s what we do. *We learned the practice from the Apostles.

We pray to our older brothers and sisters in the Faith and ask for their intercession because we’re one big family – we may be in different locations, or circumstances, but we’re united. I ask Mary to pray for me the same as I ask my own dear Mother and other members of my family and friends. Death does not separate us. Together, we are the Body of Christ.

Sure, we ask God ourselves. But the more people praying for us the better. So our family in heaven helps us out, the same as our family on earth. Death is the door to eternal life in Christ Jesus – we don’t pray to dead people.

:DJMJ Jay
 
:That’s kinda funny b/c we were always taught that Mary was a vrigin when Jesus was concieved and it was Immaculate Consumption:

The Perpetual Virginity means that Mary was a virgin her whole life, not just until Jesus’ birth. In other words, she never had sex and she never had any children other than Jesus.

What you have in mind is the Virginal Conception (or Virgin Birth in Protestant terminology), which means that Jesus was conceived miraculously without Mary having sexual intercourse. This is indeed the teaching of all Christian churches. I’m not so fortunate as you in that I do know of Methodists who deny this doctrine (Bishop Sprague of Chicago for instance), but they are of course contradicting the teaching of their own church.

The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with sex but means that Mary was purified from all sin (in Methodist terms, entirely sanctified) from the first moment of her life.

To review: Virginal Conception is about Jesus’ birth.
Perpetual Virginity is about Mary not having sex after Jesus’ birth (or before, but we all agree on that part).
Immaculate Conception is about Mary being sanctified by God in the moment of her conception.

As for praying to Mary, I do this (and I’m not Catholic–I’m Episcopalian married to a Methodist and attending a Methodist as well as an Episcopal church) not because I can’t go to God directly (which I do) but because Mary is an important member of the Body of Christ. I want to have a relationship with her just as I want to have a relationship with holy people who are still in this life.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
:

As for praying to Mary, I do this (and I’m not Catholic–I’m Episcopalian married to a Methodist and attending a Methodist as well as an Episcopal church) not because I can’t go to God directly (which I do) but because Mary is an important member of the Body of Christ. I want to have a relationship with her just as I want to have a relationship with holy people who are still in this life.

In Christ,

Edwin
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Edwin, I’ve read your posts. You do not sound at ALL like a Methodist. Now this is a great church and I very much appreciated their commitment to the poor, to responding to global crises, and to missions. Great hands on, love my brother church.

OTOH they totally waffle on abortion. There were a number of Methodist ministers (female) who marched and spoke out at that “March for Women’s Lives.” The party line is a that while they don’t like abortion, it’s a necessary evil. IOW they are standing squarely on both sides of the fence.

They haven’t figured out what to do with homosexual clergy although the recent case had the minister found guilty of violating their Book of Discipline as a practicing homosexual. So I suspect they will be seen as being relatively strong on homosexual clergy but they will not give up abortion. I left the Methodist church over this very issue. It made me sick to hear ministers claiming abortion was a “God given right that should be between a woman and her doctor.”

So while I can’t quote the same sources I’ve seen on this thread, from reading your posts I just don’t think you would accept their position on abortion. Frankly I think John Wesley would roll in his grave to see women ministers marching for the right to kill their babies. His mother Susanna, a great woman, had NINETEEN CHILDREN.

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
So while I can’t quote the same sources I’ve seen on this thread, from reading your posts I just don’t think you would accept their position on abortion. Frankly I think John Wesley would roll in his grave to see women ministers marching for the right to kill their babies. His mother Susanna, a great woman, had NINETEEN CHILDREN. Lisa N
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Listed under the category “Middle to Liberal Positions with Explicit Support of Legalized Abortion on Request” in former abortionist Dr. Bernard Nathanson’s book Aborting America, are both the Episcopal Church and the United Methodist Church.

JMJ Jay
 
Yes, the position on abortion is deeply troubling, though it has changed for the better in recent years. On homosexuality they are holding the line quite well, actually–I heard on the news this evening that they have defrocked one pastor for homosexual practice.

There is more to Methodism than social justice and church suppers. Originally they were a sacramental renewal movement within Anglicanism, and some of that is still there deep down. My wife is one of those who are trying to revive that aspect of Methodism and marry it to the evangelical tradition which today makes up most of the conservative wing. I myself come from the “holiness movement” which left the Methodist Church a hundred years ago. I nearly became Catholic, settled for being Episcopalian, and now am finding the ground crumbling underneath me . . . .

And of course there will be the obligatory remark about finding solid ground on the Rock of Peter. I know the drill.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
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wabrams:
United Methodists are not Liberal on the whole; most are conservative. Methodist are no more liberal than Roman Catholics.
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Actually, I don’t like applying political terms to religious institutions. I generally use “orthodox” (right belief) and “unorthodox” (wrong belief). But those words are meaningless except within the Catholic Faith. How can one speak of a religion that began only in the 18th century as “orthodox”?

BTW, there are some folks on this forum who are offended to be labeled “Roman Catholic.” They may be Byzantine, Maronite, Coptic or another of the 23 rites (or Churches) that comprize the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The name of the Church is simply “Catholic.” I belong to the Roman (or Latin) Rite, so I’m a “Roman Catholic” :D. Just thought I’d mention that.
There isn’t too much private interpretation. God’s teaching and the Apostle’s is a big factor; w/o those things, going to church would be just like going to a history class.
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No offense, but anything Methodists believe that does not agree with the teaching of the Catholic Church is “private interpretation.”

Methodists were described in Life Magazine many years ago as “short on doctrine, long on good works.” That’s what I meant by “liberal.” That and their permissive stance on moral issues such as abortion. But there are many varieties of Methodists, so it’s hard to find a “one-size-fits-all” statement. It was not my intent to offend you.
“- The founding of the Church (one by Christ, the other by Wesley)” I’ve always been taught that wherever man gathers to worship God, then there is His Church, regardless of Denominations (w/ the exception of LDS and Jehovah Witness’ 😃 )"
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Jesus Christ founded only one Church, in Jerusalem, in 33 A.D. All others are man-made and appeared centuries later – e.g., Methodism in the 18th century. The Church is the Bride of Christ (Eph 5:25-33; 2 Cor 11:2; Rev 22:17) – do you think He has a harem ? 😛
“- Methodism is inclusive of many conflicting doctrines, interpretations and practices” Do you mind expanding on this?
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Again, Methodism assigns dogma to a relatively minor role. Methodists are pretty much free to decide for themselves what they will believe. Contrast this with Catholicism where to pick and choose among the Church’s doctrines is called heresy. I said publicly that I believe everything the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches when I became a Catholic. All Catholic doctrine has as its authority the teaching Church founded by Christ and instructed by the Apostles, against which the powers of death shall not prevail (Mt 16:18 RSV).

Peace be with you,

JMJ Jay
 
we Catholics share several important beliefs with the Methodists. The Nicene and Apostles Creeds being the most important. We both believe in prayer and grace and the sacrament of baptism. Both Catholicism and Methodism have a strong traditon of social teachings and social action.

“Much more unites us than divides us”
 
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wabrams:
I know Jesus was the result of the Virgin Birth. Unless I’m having a brain cramp, Mary wasn’t born out of Immaculate Conception, Jesus was.

Sorry to hear that the UMC wasn’t fullfilling your spiritual needs, but I’m glad you’ve found a church were they are.
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Even before I recently started going to the Catholic Church (this summer), I knew that the Immaculate Conception was regarding Mary’s birth (not Jesus). It is a dogma in the Roman Catholic (150 years ago this December 8th). However, even before 150 years ago it was widely recognized by Catholics as being true.

The Immaculate Conception is unfortunately widely misunderstood. Most people have heard of it and many people think it is regarding Jesus’s birth.

Some Protestants understand what is meant by the Immaculate Conception and also believe it. I think some Methodists too. I am unsure but doubt that the Methodist Church requires that belief. Methodists do teach the virgin birth of Christ.

The Methodist Churches here in Manassas VA are really very good Methodist Churches. To be fair, I had dropped out of being a Methodist when I went to college. Once when I went home on break, I talked with a Methodist minister who privately admitted to me that he did not personally believe in Christ’s resurrection. This was in the late 1970s and I came to the conclusion that the Methodist Church was too liberal (not sufficiently orthodox). And to be fair, I should not make such a blanket statement to put down the Methodist Church on the basis of talking with only one minister. I am unaware of any other Methodist minister who similarly doubted the resurrection.

As a former Methodist, I am proud of how Methodists (in general) love to sing hymns. And I love Charles and John Wesley’s hymns (they wrote words to hundreds of spiritual hymns). I also greatly appreciate how the Methodist Church does have the creeds. I cannot tell that there is any significant difference in wording between Methodist’s and Catholic’s English translations of the creeds. I think the Methodist Apostle’s Creed has “He descended into hell” as an optional sentence.
 
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katherine2:
we Catholics share several important beliefs with the Methodists. The Nicene and Apostles Creeds being the most important. We both believe in prayer and grace and the sacrament of baptism. Both Catholicism and Methodism have a strong traditon of social teachings and social action.

“Much more unites us than divides us”
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Nope. The Methodist church is NOT a creed oriented church. This was very explicit when I was a member. They might occasionally recite one of these creeds but infrequently. I can’t think of any time we recited it and I attended weekly for five years.

Further their communion service is watered down to say the least. White bread and grape juice. Did you know the reason Mr Welch developed grape JUICE was being a good Methodist he wanted something they could drink that was sorta like wine without the alcohol.

JMJ was right, short on orthodoxy, big on good works. Love them for the latter but it’s not church that is based on any sort of theology.

Lisa N
 
:Nope. The Methodist church is NOT a creed oriented church. This was very explicit when I was a member.:

There are indeed many Methodists who make that claim. However, Methodists have doctrinal standards and there is a strong movement within the UMC to place more emphasis on doctrine.

: They might occasionally recite one of these creeds but infrequently. I can’t think of any time we recited it and I attended weekly for five years.:

But they confess these creeds as true, and they are found in the Methodist liturgy. It’s true that Methodists are not required to use them every Sunday. My parents’ church does; the church my wife and I attend does not.

:Further their communion service is watered down to say the least. White bread and grape juice.:

Actually Methodists use many different kinds of bread, all of which are a lot more genuinely “bread” than what Catholics use. Grape juice is the norm.

: Did you know the reason Mr Welch developed grape JUICE was being a good Methodist he wanted something they could drink that was sorta like wine without the alcohol.:

The use of grape juice goes back before Welch, actually, although he was indeed part of the story. My wife is writing her dissertation on this subject.

:JMJ was right, short on orthodoxy, big on good works. Love them for the latter but it’s not church that is based on any sort of theology.:

That is the liberal propaganda that has dominated the UMC for quite a while, but the picture is changing. I recommend William Abraham’s Waking from Doctrinal Amnesia as a good manifesto of orthodox Methodism. Abraham is a professor at Perkins School of Theology, which is one of the official Methodist seminaries.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
Lisa N:
Nope. The Methodist church is NOT a creed oriented church. This was very explicit when I was a member. They might occasionally recite one of these creeds but infrequently. I can’t think of any time we recited it and I attended weekly for five years.

Further their communion service is watered down to say the least. White bread and grape juice. Did you know the reason Mr Welch developed grape JUICE was being a good Methodist he wanted something they could drink that was sorta like wine without the alcohol.

JMJ was right, short on orthodoxy, big on good works. Love them for the latter but it’s not church that is based on any sort of theology.

Lisa N
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When I was taking confirmation classes in the Methodist Church (probably around 1969), we were supposed to have one of the creeds memorized. I decided to memorize the Apostle’s Creed because it was shorter.

Correct about the grape juice. I have sometimes seen wafers instead of bread. Last summer when I went home, they had a loaf of Roma’s Italian Bread (locally made) and grape juice. And they had a prayer of consecration and it seemed that the local minister was saying it was the body and blood of Christ. The only thing I can figure is that Methodist Churches do differ a lot one from another.

Methodists have “acolytes” – alter boys (at least they used to have them). I was an alter boy for awhile. I remember how the advent wreath with candles was way up and suspended from the ceiling. We had extra-long lighters to reach those candles (perhaps 6 or 8 feet long). Since I was tall, I sometimes had the job. Probably the most challenging part of being an alter boy was to light all four advent candles on the Sunday before Christmas. Because if you weren’t careful, the wreath could start rotating slowly and then you really had a problem on your hands trying to reach and light the candles. If the wreath was rotating slowly you had to wait until the breif moment that it stopped before starting to rotate the other way. Fairly tricky.

On one memorable Sunday, we had an outdoor communion service that I’ll never forget. Before the service, I helped blow up the helium balloons. That’s right. We had communion (with wafers and little grape juices) and at the end each person let go of their balloon. The sky was very clear and blue and it was very interesting to watch all the balloons sail up and away.

Methodists also have a hierarchy with Bishops over each geographic area. So that is similar to Catholics. No Pope though, instead they have an annual convention (perhaps in form that is more like the annual meeting of US Catholic Bishops – but certainly the content of annual meetings Methodist/Catholic is likely to be much different).
 
Contarini wrote:
Actually Methodists use many different kinds of bread, all of which are a lot more genuinely “bread” than what Catholics use. Grape juice is the norm.
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The unleavened bread [made of only two ingredients: flour and water] used in the liturgy of the Latin (aka Roman) Rite Catholic Churches is the bread of the Passover. Eastern Catholic Churches use leavened bread. Both are made exclusively for use in the Eucharistic Liturgy – not for general consumption.

The use of grape juice is a Protestant innovation. Christ didn’t turn water into grape juice. Nor did Jews drink grape juice at Passover. Nor was Christ offered grape juice by the Roman soldiers at Calvary.😛

🙂 JMJ Jay
 
Contarini said:
:
That is the liberal propaganda that has dominated the UMC for quite a while, but the picture is changing. I recommend William Abraham’s Waking from Doctrinal Amnesia as a good manifesto of orthodox Methodism. Abraham is a professor at Perkins School of Theology, which is one of the official Methodist seminaries.

In Christ,

Edwin
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Could be but I simply couldn’t remain a Methodist after reading about their support for abortion. There is a whole section on the official UMC website where they profile the “March for Women’s Lives” and had several Methodist ministers speaking out on the “right to choose.” It utterly shocked me although I guess I’d never really thought about it. Funny how Methodists are first to a crisis in another country but oblivious to a crisis right here at home. I hope they do return to a more orthodox approach. It’s a great church and they sure have the best hymns! I absolutely admire the commitment to missions and to the betterment of society.

OTOH the whole approach to communion is just so casual, I don’t see even a remote similarity to the way the Catholics view this sacrament.

I wish you the best as you contemplate your future. I know that I am extremely happy to be in the process of converting. It may sound cliched but I feel like I’ve come home.
Lisa N
 
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wabrams:
I know Jesus was the result of the Virgin Birth. Unless I’m having a brain cramp, Mary wasn’t born out of Immaculate Conception, Jesus was.
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Men are of 4 types:

1)He who knows not and knows that he knows not;
He is a child - teach him
2)He who knows not and knows not that he knows not;
He is a fool - shun him
3) He who knows but knows not that he knows;
He is asleep - awaken him
4) He who knows and knows that he knows;
He is a King - follow him

Sorry dude, but on this topic you are number 2. I haven’t read many posts here, but I’m sure everyone will pretty much pelt you with this info. The Immaculate Conception refers to the birth of Mary completely free of the stain of original sin! St. Anne was her mother. This is still believed to have occured on the merits of Christ’s crucifixion, but in a special way: in anticipation of it. don’t forget - the Crucifixion was an ETERNAL sacrifice which is not restricted by TIME. Catholics will celebrate this Holy Day of Obligation on Wednesday this week.

Phil
 
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Contarini:
Yes, the position on abortion is deeply troubling,** though it has changed for the better in recent years**. On homosexuality they are holding the line quite well, actually–I heard on the news this evening that they have defrocked one pastor for homosexual practice.

There is more to Methodism than social justice and church suppers. Originally they were a sacramental renewal movement within Anglicanism, and some of that is still there deep down. My wife is one of those who are trying to revive that aspect of Methodism and marry it to the evangelical tradition which today makes up most of the conservative wing. I myself come from the “holiness movement” which left the Methodist Church a hundred years ago. I nearly became Catholic, settled for being Episcopalian, and now am finding the ground crumbling underneath me . . . .

And of course there will be the obligatory remark about finding solid ground on the Rock of Peter. I know the drill.

In Christ,

Edwin
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Edwin - From what I’ve read you know already that you will never be satisfied with a church that “changes for the better” with respect to Doctrinal issues. You also already know there are extemely few choices once you acknowledge this. Clearly this has already manifested itself in your life, but you “settled”. I think you should be a little careful about “settling”. I’m not judging you at all - honest - just a piece of advice from another sinner who in no way is capable of judging. My suspicion is there are some “personal issues” that belong to someone else. Maybe the one you have “become one” with. Very difficult stuff - for you and me - but never underestimate the Holy Spirit. Do your best to discern God’s calling for you and know that many people who read posts like yours will be praying for you. And never forget that “The favors of the Lord are not exhausted; His mercies are not spent. They are renewed each morning - so great is His faithfulness.”
Lamentations 3:22-23

Phil
 
Sorry I haven’t posted a response to anyone lately, I’ve been fighting the flu since late Thursday. I’ll try and respond to a couple of the posts as the day goes on.
 
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Exporter:
Are you aware of the fact that you have TWICE slapped our Catholic faces?
  1. The Immaculate Conception (not consumption- one slap) occured at Mary’s conception. Do you think the Father would not prerare a pristine vessel for His Son? Mary was concieved Immaculately , meaning she did not have the stain of Original Sin.
    2.“Ask the big man yourself”. #2 ! Who are you to be giving nicknames like “Big Man” to the Most Holy Father? Would you retract that? We would never call Our Father in Heaven, “BIG MAN”.
I assume you know the meaning of the word, “consumption”. It is an acronym for Tuberculosis, a lung disease.
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As to statement number one, read post 20. I said is was a slip up, get over it. As to statement number 2, lighten up. I love God with all my heart. He is the giver of life, free will, etc. As to “We would NEVER call Our Father…” My CATHOLIC fiance has known a priest or two to jokingly refer to God as the Big Man upstairs.
 
Veronica Anne:
We have 7 Sacraments. Protestants have 1 sacrament (Baptism).

👍
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You’ll have to explain to Anglicans/Episcopalians and Lutherans why you believe they only have 1 sacrament. They uphold 2.

It must be remembered that not all protestants are the same.

Peace…
 
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