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BibleSteve
Guest
Well then, I guess you have the green light to do anything you want in your worship of God.
All it takes is your Church organization to tell you it’s the right thing to do and off you go.
I’ve learned plenty about how Catholic’s think and rationalize by means of the last few comments.
Save yourself the effort of typing up more your silly rationalizations.
I’ve seen more than enough to make conclusions on whether Catholism is true or not.
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sbanks
Guest
BibleSteve - I believe that what you have seen is all in scriptures. We are not here to stone you but to educate you. You have the choice to do your homework or not. I don’t care if your JW, Mormon, Protestant or a cradle catholic. The facts remain the same for all of us. So please respond after you have had time to some homework and if you disagree please assign us some scriptures to look up and respond accordingly.
Thanks Biblesteve & God Bless!
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vocatio
Guest
Biblesteve,
So you think I think like a Catholic?.. Have you bothered to research where I came from before making such a blanketed statement … Learn a term…“straw men arguement”. The basis of your argument is so dumb in my book…and has nothing to do with being Catholic. I grew up in a Protestant faith, though secretly baptized Catholic while mom was pregnant with my younger brother. I remember clearly attending a church of Christ youth function where the adults thought is was their right to proselytize us and plant bible only beliefs in our heads… I carried that to my adulthood and even though I went to a Catholic Seminary, I still fell on my face with believing in the bible only…up until I asked the rigtht questions that nearly called me to atheism…“WHERE DID THE BIBLE COME FROM”…that led to “How do we know the books contained in there were inspired from God”. How do we konw which church is the one true church? That has always been in my head bouncing around. Then I realize and discovered man ancient documents that contradict Protestants like you. The concept of Tradition, contained in scripture, showed me that the church is the pillar and fire of truth…not the pages between leather flaps. It finally made sense, but how in the HELL could it be the Catholic Church, they don’t know their rear ends from a _____in the ground. They don’t even follow their own church teachings, which is what, I could never seem to get it straight. Then I discovered CAF, EWTN got stuck on television, made sense even once I disciplined myself to listen to their stupidity *. But they are the only ones that made sense. Actually, my pride was so hurt that I tried to work towards the Orthodox Church…at one point to satisfy my wife I considered becoming Episcopalian…though they have issues too. Then it dawned on me. No church body [small letter “c”] runs smooth behind the scenes as I discovered on the Protestant side. Lots of bad thing happen that you never hear about. But you see, I was married into it and not only experienced mean people in leadership roles with absolute power, but I heard about it in the family. My family started a church on my mom’s side. My dad was one of those Catholics that said all non-Catholics are going to hell no matter how good they are. I learned this with blood, sweat and lots of tears. I get it now. Push your pride aside and look at the real teachings of the church. It’s absolutely wonderful. I’ve found the only place bible never contradicts itself in other passages, nor does its own Traditions. Protestant faiths have many Traditions and traditions. [assuming you know how we use these 2 different meanings]
My FIL was an elder…a bishop in there teaching, 2 of my BIL are preacers. I have several friends that are pulpit and youth minisisters in differetnt denominations, including the one I was working towards becoming a minister. Strange you think I think like a Catholic when in fact I presented you my previous post as a mentally transformed church of Christ bible only Christian only. I had a scholarship for ACU to become a minister. I was the fundamentalist everyone ran from not that long ago. Even at my current job. But these people attacked me when I was church of Christ and now they attack me because I’m Catholic. Can’t blame them though. I used to be like you too.*
So you think I think like a Catholic?.. Have you bothered to research where I came from before making such a blanketed statement … Learn a term…“straw men arguement”. The basis of your argument is so dumb in my book…and has nothing to do with being Catholic. I grew up in a Protestant faith, though secretly baptized Catholic while mom was pregnant with my younger brother. I remember clearly attending a church of Christ youth function where the adults thought is was their right to proselytize us and plant bible only beliefs in our heads… I carried that to my adulthood and even though I went to a Catholic Seminary, I still fell on my face with believing in the bible only…up until I asked the rigtht questions that nearly called me to atheism…“WHERE DID THE BIBLE COME FROM”…that led to “How do we know the books contained in there were inspired from God”. How do we konw which church is the one true church? That has always been in my head bouncing around. Then I realize and discovered man ancient documents that contradict Protestants like you. The concept of Tradition, contained in scripture, showed me that the church is the pillar and fire of truth…not the pages between leather flaps. It finally made sense, but how in the HELL could it be the Catholic Church, they don’t know their rear ends from a _____in the ground. They don’t even follow their own church teachings, which is what, I could never seem to get it straight. Then I discovered CAF, EWTN got stuck on television, made sense even once I disciplined myself to listen to their stupidity *. But they are the only ones that made sense. Actually, my pride was so hurt that I tried to work towards the Orthodox Church…at one point to satisfy my wife I considered becoming Episcopalian…though they have issues too. Then it dawned on me. No church body [small letter “c”] runs smooth behind the scenes as I discovered on the Protestant side. Lots of bad thing happen that you never hear about. But you see, I was married into it and not only experienced mean people in leadership roles with absolute power, but I heard about it in the family. My family started a church on my mom’s side. My dad was one of those Catholics that said all non-Catholics are going to hell no matter how good they are. I learned this with blood, sweat and lots of tears. I get it now. Push your pride aside and look at the real teachings of the church. It’s absolutely wonderful. I’ve found the only place bible never contradicts itself in other passages, nor does its own Traditions. Protestant faiths have many Traditions and traditions. [assuming you know how we use these 2 different meanings]
My FIL was an elder…a bishop in there teaching, 2 of my BIL are preacers. I have several friends that are pulpit and youth minisisters in differetnt denominations, including the one I was working towards becoming a minister. Strange you think I think like a Catholic when in fact I presented you my previous post as a mentally transformed church of Christ bible only Christian only. I had a scholarship for ACU to become a minister. I was the fundamentalist everyone ran from not that long ago. Even at my current job. But these people attacked me when I was church of Christ and now they attack me because I’m Catholic. Can’t blame them though. I used to be like you too.*
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vocatio
Guest
Sorry, I reacted, but I’m leaving the long type to justify my wasted time and remind me that I need to byte my tounge. Sometimes the Fundamentalist Protestant comes out in me. My convert wife is a better Catholic than me.
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sbanks
Guest
vocatio
Hey I went to ACU as well, I didn’t figure it out until about 5 years ago!! But while at ACU i did learn that the world is not limited to just the coc. The best thing that I think the church does in the RCIA process is that they don’t go beating people over the head with “Join us, be saved!!” speeches etc. Those searching come to the church!! The process is long but usually those that drop out come back the next year! My point is to focus on the facts and we don’t need to throw jabs back & forth.
BibleSteve is looking here searching for something, I am guessing he is looking for the Truth!! So we welcome BibleSteve’s questions and responses!!
No worries here.
Hey I went to ACU as well, I didn’t figure it out until about 5 years ago!! But while at ACU i did learn that the world is not limited to just the coc. The best thing that I think the church does in the RCIA process is that they don’t go beating people over the head with “Join us, be saved!!” speeches etc. Those searching come to the church!! The process is long but usually those that drop out come back the next year! My point is to focus on the facts and we don’t need to throw jabs back & forth.BibleSteve is looking here searching for something, I am guessing he is looking for the Truth!! So we welcome BibleSteve’s questions and responses!!
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vocatio
Guest
sbanks, do you know mlleveleur? [Stephanie] Do you go by sbanks elsewheres?
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sbanks
Guest
Yup - on steph’s board as well.
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vocatio
Guest
Said hey to you. Watch the DVD I posted. Flashback. or more like nightmare on elm street.
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holy_wood
Guest
For those who think there are differences between Catholic Teaching and the Bible, can you please tell us where you believe the Bible came from.
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c659smith
Guest
Bible Steve you are right in one the Catholics are --One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
When you say the Church says to do something we do it if it is legal, We give onto Ceasar what is Cearsars and God what is Gods.
When the Church in the matter of the Bishops say to do something under the context of legality and in combination with Sacred Scriptures, Sacred Traditions, and Sacred Teachings we follow for we are the sheep.
The head of the Church is Christ and the body is the people
If the head can not control the body and the body does not work as one then you just have alot of convulsive non useful movements.
That is why Christ placed men in the heirachy of His Church (the Apostles) and had deciples had it’s teaches. Christ did not do away with traditions was one who not only spoke of them but praticed them in His life and Ministry.
the Incarnation, Resurrection, and Second Coming of Christ. Area’s that you have taken from the Church (the Catholic Church) is that a “born again” believer can be lost through disobedience to God is an area you also have in common with Catholics that many fundamendalist Protestants do not.
Why even the bible you tout comes from the Catholic Church.
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panoikei
Guest
Though I grew up in a mixed home. My Catholic father didn’t teach me authentic church teaching, he taught me …actually gave me a rosary and statues with a couple of books. It was freaky to me, but since I had received my first communion as a teenager I just put them on my chest of drawers. By the time I was 16, I had been going to a Southern Baptist Church and a Catholic Mass when I had a care, 30 miles away. Baptist was about 3 miles and all my extended step family went to the country church. It really didn’t bother me because in my mind I thought that the bible only was the answer. It made sense to me… Until I grew up saw the ill practicing cradle Catholics with many different teachings about the same things. Most were wrong. Then I went through a quick CCD class and only attended 2 or 3 classes that I remeber. I was confirmed having learned virtually on my own. I was too shy and embarrassed for not knowing more and just trusted that God would lead me. I even went to the Catholic Seminary that made it even worst. Several things happened that caused me to really stumble to my face. I went from practicing Catholic to a cafateria Catholic life style, scared for reasons I wont’ go into. Most everyone where I had moved to away from the country in the city were Catholic…cafateria or non-practicing Catholics. It was the 70’s and early 80’s.
Military brought me back, but bit by bit. I actually bought a VCII book and LOTH and Karl Keating’s then new book “Fundamentalism and Catholicism”. The problem is that my conscience was really Protestant, because that was the only group that bothered to really educate me on scripture, which seemed like solid truth, and it is if studied properly. Many years passed I decided that since I had not found a good faithful practicing Catholic woman by now, God must be calling me back to his service in the clergy as a priest. I consecrated my life to God to become a priest no matter what but realized that he’s in control and that I’d only drop the idea if He brought me a good Catholic woman… I’m disgusted by many Catholic women that didn’t see value in me. They all wanted someone already making big bucks… Catholic people, that’s wrong, shame on us for allowing that. While stationed at a state side Fort, one soldier told me that this girl he met was my kind of girl. I scoffed at him saying…“how do you know that, is she Catholic and anyway I’m going to become a priest”. Little did I know that this Protestant woman would draw me in so tight and amazed at their bible only faith that I’d end up stumbling away from the faith. Everything they said made sense and fit my own beliefs. I ended up marrying outside the church, thought that my public baptism and later marriage at that church was good enough to renounce the Catholic faith and feeling the way I did thought that the if I truly believed the Catholic Church had no authority I didn’t have to figure out who to send a darn letter to renouncing the faith as heresy, pagan, vile, etc.
It was over a 17 year experience that led me to see with adult eyes and a more educated mind the problems with this group. I had already laughted Baptists off as not believing an anything and hopping all over the place in scripture despirate to prove they’re belief. Baptism is very clearn, Lord’s supper is very clear, Works are very clear, Marriage is very clear. This group stood for all of it. And then I began to see that all the different independent congregations emphasized some things more than other and were inconsistent. I even found one elder that was remarried. That was scandalous and not authorized by the bible in my conscience. Remarriage for any other reason than death or infidelity is heresy according to the way we taught scripture. *. I saw over time that we were also subject to the local bishops, the overseers or elders being defined as one and the same. I began to see many different practices and disagreement among and between them. Conservative, mainstream and liberal. One cuppers, multi cuppers, even the order of worship was an issue for some. Kitchen or no kitchen. Lord help you if you tried to bring in an instrument even if it wasn’t for worship. I discovered that there was a tradition, and majisterium or church auhtority and bible.
Then I discovered over time how did we get the bible. Because I saw that none of any church I studies truly followed the bible. The Catholic Church seemed to teach it but no catholics knew it. That was mostly true. I blame it on human nature, weak minds, weak flesh, sin… That will never be illiminated I believe. But the Catholic Church, unlike many Protestants, do not chase the children of God away from the Church, but rather continue to preach to them…hopefully not becoming like the ones they are evangelizing in the Church. Yes, the Church evangelizes its own. We preach to non-Catholics, yes, but we actually focus on preaching the many within the fold. The Church says that once you’re baptized as a Catholic or brought in as a convert, you can not leave. Not that you can’t physically or self place yourself outside, but that God won’t allow it. You may not know all you need to know, but you are Catholic. I’ve heard it said that even properly baptized Protestants are part of the Catholic Church, they just don’t know it yet. Fallen away Catholics have much to fear on judgement day. I worried about it from time to time wondering…but what if I was wrong.
short contatation next post.*
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panoikei
Guest
Cont’d
Realize that conversion is very difficult for those of us that were anti-Catholic, especially the fallen away Catholics. There are so many issues that haunted me. But I really was trying to know the truth. I lost faith in the majisterium, for understandable reasons if you know Church history. My mother was anti-Catholic, my Dad was a Traditional Catholic that taught there was no valid Pope. I was always at odds with one or the other no matter what.
Anyway, jumping through time, I asked the right questiosn because I was seeking the truth…so much so that even my own anti-Catholic wife became Catholic before me…LOL…I was always Catholic and only had to go to confession. But sponsoring her in RCIA was the best thing I ever did.
Realize that conversion is very difficult for those of us that were anti-Catholic, especially the fallen away Catholics. There are so many issues that haunted me. But I really was trying to know the truth. I lost faith in the majisterium, for understandable reasons if you know Church history. My mother was anti-Catholic, my Dad was a Traditional Catholic that taught there was no valid Pope. I was always at odds with one or the other no matter what.
Anyway, jumping through time, I asked the right questiosn because I was seeking the truth…so much so that even my own anti-Catholic wife became Catholic before me…LOL…I was always Catholic and only had to go to confession. But sponsoring her in RCIA was the best thing I ever did.
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Hisalone
Guest
God
Catholics who lay claim to the bible as if it is their doing are greatly decieved.
The Jews pefore them and the Protestants who put the bible back in its rightfull place have as much do to about the bible as Catholics claim.
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panoikei
Guest
His alone your are greatly diceiving yourself. You do not know church history. Where’s the frying pan…smack …bong!
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rinnie
Guest
When you study really study the faith, and when God is ready for you to understand you will come home to the CC. Seek and you will find. It is through the grace of God that we all have the religion we have. I prayed on this for years and couldnt understand how could people not see what is written, Like how could they see that the keys of the kingdom were left to Peter. and say that Peter wasnt left the church. Protestants would say that isnt what it means , I would be like, OKAY what does it mean? I always got i dont know but it doesnt mean that, or thats what your Pope told you. Come on people Catholics arent stupid either. Then i found a couple verses in the bible and learned what they meant. Only few will understand, great scollars will not know what you know. How the blind can see, and the ones that can see are blind. But i also learned its the Holy Spirit that enters you, ITs GOd that picks us, we didnt pick him. Some are lucky like myself we didnt have to go GOd, He was given at birth, others wernt so lucky. Im not bitter anymore as Jesus said live by example. Make me proud. They know not what they do. So much is clear now, and pray that others will have the Holy Spirit enter them this way some day. Then they will some day also see.
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whizkid43
Guest
History will show you as incorrect.
The list of books in the Bible was finalized by the Council of Rome in 382, I believe the Damasine list provides a complete list of the books.
The Old Testament amounted to the Septuaguint, which is representative of the Old Testament Jesus and the Apostles used, right. Then there were the 27 Books of the New Testament.
the Jews met in around 100 AD and came up wit the list of books they now use. [Could somebody double check me here?]
The Bible consists of 73 books that is until Martin Luther and the Reformers removed 7 books. The Apochrypha/Deuterocanicla books so they could do away with Purgatory and prove Faith alone which, by the way, the Book James refutes. James another Book Martin Luther wanted to remove from the Bible…
If you do accept the authority of the Catholic Church then under whose authority do you accept the Bible?
Take an unbiased and prayerful look at Church history.
“To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.”
- John Henry Cardinal Newman
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rinnie
Guest
You know you just made me think of something, sorry for going off thread for a second, but how do they explain away the faith alone, because if i am correct the book of James is in their bible.
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panoikei
Guest
Wiskid,
I didn’t see you post why the Jews came together about 100 AD. This is very important to know why and what happened.
Tha Canon of scripture for the Jews included the deuterocanon [what Protestants call apocrypha] “books”. What’s missing that I didn’t understand until I learned more ancient early church history was that the temple was distroyed and the rise of the saducese took place over the pharasees. Many of the Sacucese only wanted th Mosaic books or Penteuch or Torah. [spelling is horrible]. So that’s when the canon of the Jews was changed. The ancient manuscripts found in the caves called the septuigent revealed this to be true. There are many quoted made by Jesus and the Apostles that are right out of the deuterocanonical books.
Further, Luther added the word “ONLY” to the bible to force his idea of faith only. Ironically, his last prayer was to Mary. His last act was confession. Intersting discovery. Anyway, Luther was actually trying to get rid of the book of James and Revelations, along with some others that he didn’t like for one reason or the other [google it]. His assessment of the scandals in the Church was right on. But his action of creating division was unintended but eventually imbraced. Did you know he wore his Augustinian Habit for many years after being excommunicated. He did not mean to get excommunicated.
Luthers supporters would not let him remove all the books he tried to remove. But to make things simple, they used to modern day canon established by the Jews.
Okay, further study revealed to me that the first King James Bible included the so call “apocripha” in the same place that the Catholic bible had them. After I forget how many years the apocrypha was moved to an appendix. Ironically, after many more years the apophripha was eventually pulled out altogether, and for about 20 years or so the references from the KJV still had references to the appendix of the apocripha.
There were several heresy’s in the early church. The conon of scriipture had to be clarified and finalized so that they could root out the major heresy’s that were wide spread. You would not agree with that heresy even moreso. Had they gotten their way, we would not belive the things we do today or most probably still be fight the heresy. Ironica we are still fighting heresy.
more later. wifetellling me about her workoout.
I didn’t see you post why the Jews came together about 100 AD. This is very important to know why and what happened.
Tha Canon of scripture for the Jews included the deuterocanon [what Protestants call apocrypha] “books”. What’s missing that I didn’t understand until I learned more ancient early church history was that the temple was distroyed and the rise of the saducese took place over the pharasees. Many of the Sacucese only wanted th Mosaic books or Penteuch or Torah. [spelling is horrible]. So that’s when the canon of the Jews was changed. The ancient manuscripts found in the caves called the septuigent revealed this to be true. There are many quoted made by Jesus and the Apostles that are right out of the deuterocanonical books.
Further, Luther added the word “ONLY” to the bible to force his idea of faith only. Ironically, his last prayer was to Mary. His last act was confession. Intersting discovery. Anyway, Luther was actually trying to get rid of the book of James and Revelations, along with some others that he didn’t like for one reason or the other [google it]. His assessment of the scandals in the Church was right on. But his action of creating division was unintended but eventually imbraced. Did you know he wore his Augustinian Habit for many years after being excommunicated. He did not mean to get excommunicated.
Luthers supporters would not let him remove all the books he tried to remove. But to make things simple, they used to modern day canon established by the Jews.
Okay, further study revealed to me that the first King James Bible included the so call “apocripha” in the same place that the Catholic bible had them. After I forget how many years the apocrypha was moved to an appendix. Ironically, after many more years the apophripha was eventually pulled out altogether, and for about 20 years or so the references from the KJV still had references to the appendix of the apocripha.
There were several heresy’s in the early church. The conon of scriipture had to be clarified and finalized so that they could root out the major heresy’s that were wide spread. You would not agree with that heresy even moreso. Had they gotten their way, we would not belive the things we do today or most probably still be fight the heresy. Ironica we are still fighting heresy.
more later. wifetellling me about her workoout.
W
whizkid43
Guest
I agree. Just a quick note. I was raised RC, fell away from the faith, attended a Fundamentalist Church for 5 years and came back to the RC Church. Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are a circular argument and break down under close scrutiny.
Here’s the Faith and Deeds section from James 2 14:26 (NIV) …
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
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