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NewsTheMan
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This imaginary world does not exist.
Thus, rock music is not appropriate at Mass. Ever.
Differences between the Traditional Catholics and Charismatic Catholics
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Thus, rock music is not appropriate at Mass. Ever.
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guanophore
Guest
What would make you think that “the Charismatic is based around the charisms that occur during meetings”? This is contradictory to the instructions of the Holy Fathers.
They are clear that the charisms are for the service of the Church, and evangelization.
It is true that "there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.1 Cor 12:4-7.
To the extent that it is the HS who inspires al lthe gifts in everyone, it is 'based around the Holy Spirit", but the focus is outward, to the Church, and to the world.
I am mystified by this preoccupation. I have only seen it here in the tc part of CAF, and I have to say, it seems peculiar. Going to a prayer meeting and being preoccupied with what others are doing, or not doing, seems to me to have the focus in the wrong place. It is like going to Mass, and paying more attention to the form of participation of others than oneself. Jesus said we are not to judge others, and to let the weeds grow together with the wheat until the harvest. I don’t doubt that some people go through the motions of the Mass when their heart is not present (I used to be one of them myself). Likewise, there are some that attend prayer meetings that pretend. However, what has their spiritual immaturity to do with me? Do I not have my hands full with my own? So long as I am acting with integrity (not faking my prayers), is that not enough for me?
There are many Catholic Charismatics that are Traditional. I am this way as well. In fact, one of the reasons I strayed from the faith was being disgusted with Liturgical abuses.
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guanophore
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No, I think this might have crept into the Liturgy through the 12 step traditions. Charismatics do hold hands sometimes in prayer meetings, and I have heard this practice encouraged from the Presider at many Novus Ordo Liturgies that are non-charismatic.
I think it would be more accurate to say that Charismatics believe there is a valid place for human emotion and enthusiasm in Catholic faith. I have noticed that people who abhor the Charismatic experience can be very emotionally repressed, and afraid of experiencing feelings.
This is a very warped perception of Charismatic experience. I grant that it may be yours, but it is not the focus of the movement, or those within it.
No, Charsimatic Catholics are more about living the Spirit filled life, unwrapping and using the gifts that were sealed in them at baptism. It may have nothing to do with tongues, which are considered the most common, and the “least” of all the charisms.
I have only been in the Renewal since 1979, and probably have not logged 1000 Charismatic Liturgies, but none of them has ever had “rock music”. Such a thing would be considered a gross liturgical abuse. If I found myself in one, I would leave.
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Inquiringperson
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It may exist one day. My point is that in any culture, whatever is sacred should be used and whatever is secular shouldn’t be used.
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guanophore
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The thread limit is 1000.Yes, I agree. There are a couple of charismatic enthusiasts that are literally indefatigable. The last couple of threads ran to over 600 posts (I did not think that was even possible).
You know, we are striving for the fullness!
And why are all these charismatic themes popping up on the Traditional boards? Does anyone else think this is weird?
Maybe we should scrap the term “traditional” or “traditionalist,” and all just become “charismatic.” The tongue we speak in just happens to be Latin.
You know, charismatics believe that this is the most Traditional way to be.
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Inquiringperson
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The Charismatic Gifts were infallibly declared, right?No, I think this might have crept into the Liturgy through the 12 step traditions. Charismatics do hold hands sometimes in prayer meetings, and I have heard this practice encouraged from the Presider at many Novus Ordo Liturgies that are non-charismatic.
I think it would be more accurate to say that Charismatics believe there is a valid place for human emotion and enthusiasm in Catholic faith. I have noticed that people who abhor the Charismatic experience can be very emotionally repressed, and afraid of experiencing feelings.
This is a very warped perception of Charismatic experience. I grant that it may be yours, but it is not the focus of the movement, or those within it.
No, Charsimatic Catholics are more about living the Spirit filled life, unwrapping and using the gifts that were sealed in them at baptism. It may have nothing to do with tongues, which are considered the most common, and the “least” of all the charisms.
I have only been in the Renewal since 1979, and probably have not logged 1000 Charismatic Liturgies, but none of them has ever had “rock music”. Such a thing would be considered a gross liturgical abuse. If I found myself in one, I would leave.
Also, what were the twelve steps tradition?
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Oneofthewomen
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12 Steps Tradition- see here.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are described in Sacred Scripture.
Why does it have to be “infallibly declared”?
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Darran
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Liturgical abuses are related to traditional Catholicism?
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guanophore
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Darran
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I don’t understand the relevance.No.
Liturgical abuses were related to my disgust.
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anp1215
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He’s saying you can be a charismatic Catholic and also traditional. He said he was disgusted by liturgical abuses to show that he is traditional, since traditionalists usually place a lot of emphasis on stamping out liturgical abuses.
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Heuchler
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I really didn’t want to get in a discussion about if charismatic is wrong or not. But how do you expect me to be charismatic if the majority of the charismatic people speak in tongues when I don’t believe they are truly. The only reason I am not charismatic is because I believe that the majority of the charisms there are not from the Holy Spirt. I do not claim nor do I think that this comes from insincerity or from liars but from psychological and neurological programming of the mind. But how can you expect me to be charismatic if I don’t believe in the gift of laughter, crying, and resting in the spirt? If you believe in those things, then you will probably be charismatic, if not you won’t. That was all I meant by my statement.
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guanophore
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Just responding to the question.
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guanophore
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I appreciate that.
Being Charismatic means that one is open to the work of the HS in one’s life. It is not required that anyone “speak in tongues”. And of course you should not be involved in such things if you believe they are not of God. What other charismatic people do is of no relevance. Each believer is responsible to God for their walk in the Spirit.
Then may I suggest that you choose another term to refer to the phenomena? Since Scripture, the Catechism, the documents of Vat. 2 and the Holy Fathers all call the actions of the HS “charisms” then you must be thinking of activities that are something other than the work of the HS, and they should not be properly called “charisms” as this is a biblical term used to describe gifts that only come from the HS.
**
I do not claim nor do I think that this comes from insincerity or from liars but from psychological and neurological programming of the mind.**
Whatever the supposed source, only gifts that emanate from the HS are properly called “charisms”.
Heuchler:
These are not requirements to live a Spirit filled life. The Apostle commands us to “live by the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh”. Laughing,crying and resting in the Spirit, though very healing for human emotions, are not mandatory components.
Thanks for clarifying.
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Inquiringperson
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Scripture had to be infallibly declared.12 Steps Tradition- see here.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are described in Sacred Scripture.
Why does it have to be “infallibly declared”?
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Darran
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So the Catholic Church had it all wrong for 1921 years untill the charismatics came. Oh right.
What other charismatics do is of UTMOST relevance, they are people affected by a reform too.
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TradionalWay
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Melchior_1
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This one more example of people posting pictures out of context, sort of like how people continually references Clown Masses as if they happen every Tuesday. The picture on the left has some kids up in the Sanctuary area. Rome issued a request a few years ago asking Life Teen to refrain from doing that further. Unlike certain other elements within the Church, they listened immediately and issued a memorandum to all Life Teen affiliated parishes telling them to stop. And wouldn’t you know, they did.Hahaha what is not different ^^
Just see in the pictures
Life Teen is fully committed and obedient to Rome and the Chair of Peter. That’s more I can say about some “traditional” groups.
Meanwhile, I’m also amazed how everyone here seems to regard the Extraordinary Form as being a haven from liturgical abuse, and that nothing would ever be introduced or abused during EF Masses.
As to the differences? They’ve been talked about already. As a proponent of Dominican Spirituality, I regularly engage in traditional practices. I’m also charismatic, so the two are definitely compatible.
Differences? In theory the only difference should be the style of Liturgy.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
I am confused then, if scripture is “infallibly declared” and the “gifts of the holy spirit” are from scripture, what exactly is your question?
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vardaquinn
Guest
sigh not another one…
So, I would count myself both a Traditionalist and a Charismatic. Most of the differences are really ridiculous, but some of them raise valid questions. I have a lot against the mentality of many traditionalists, even if I agree with a lot of their practices (especially in regards to the liturgy). I am almost all for the mentality of many charismatics, even if I disagree with a lot of their practices (especially in regards to the liturgy). I think it’s probably at heart a cultural difference.
One big difference is that traditionalists tend to be very individualistic and private in their experience of God. Charismatics tend to be very communal and open about their experience of God. Traditionalists tend to hide their enthusiasm and devotion, charismatics are very open about it. I think a lot of traditionalists hold on to and promote things like the TLM, traditional sacred music like chant and polyphony (things I promote), because they are uncomfortable with vibrant enthusiasm, with sharing their faith.
In America, there’s a lot of cultural reasons for this. Much of America’s Catholic culture comes from Ireland. Ireland was heavily persecuted by British Protestants for hundreds of years. Mass and the practice of Catholicism (and Irish culture) was illegalized. Consequently, their worship had to become very secret and minimalistic. You’d be saying Mass out in fields and in barns and cellars. No singing, no participation from the congregation. All outward signs of Catholic enthusiasm had to be gotten rid of, as a matter of life and death. Consequently, devotion became very very individualistic. Just me and Jesus, who happen to be at Mass with a hundred other people. You couldn’t evangelize really either. The ones who were doing these things were the Protestants, whom you naturally hated and disliked because they were persecuting and killing you. This all came over to America with the Irish.
Many traditionalists find loud enthusiasm, or charismatic expression, or the kind of surrender to the evangelizing power of the Holy Spirit to be “too Protestant” for these reasons. Consequently, the result is rather like the Apostles pre-Pentecost behavior. They were closed up in the Upper Room (or by analogy, the local parish), terrified for their lives (by analogy either of the cruel British, or the decadent and evil world), and doing little about their faith by simply praying.
Charismatics are far more like the Apostles after Pentecost. They’ve received the Holy Spirit, and they’ve drunk deeply of this Spirit, and proclaim in tongues and walk in the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. Like the Apostles, they are thought of as drunk, or high (or by many traditionalists, too Protestant). They’re joyful Catholics, and are consequently accused of emotionalism and being too “happy clappy”.
I don’t approve of rock music at Mass, even though I do approve of loud music at Mass (I have news for you: heaven ain’t quiet). The Church has set guidelines for the music which we should follow. That being said, charismatic liturgies and worship (at least from my experience) point far more to the reality of the presence of God than traditionalist ones. Traditionalists look bored and asleep.
So, I would count myself both a Traditionalist and a Charismatic. Most of the differences are really ridiculous, but some of them raise valid questions. I have a lot against the mentality of many traditionalists, even if I agree with a lot of their practices (especially in regards to the liturgy). I am almost all for the mentality of many charismatics, even if I disagree with a lot of their practices (especially in regards to the liturgy). I think it’s probably at heart a cultural difference.
One big difference is that traditionalists tend to be very individualistic and private in their experience of God. Charismatics tend to be very communal and open about their experience of God. Traditionalists tend to hide their enthusiasm and devotion, charismatics are very open about it. I think a lot of traditionalists hold on to and promote things like the TLM, traditional sacred music like chant and polyphony (things I promote), because they are uncomfortable with vibrant enthusiasm, with sharing their faith.
In America, there’s a lot of cultural reasons for this. Much of America’s Catholic culture comes from Ireland. Ireland was heavily persecuted by British Protestants for hundreds of years. Mass and the practice of Catholicism (and Irish culture) was illegalized. Consequently, their worship had to become very secret and minimalistic. You’d be saying Mass out in fields and in barns and cellars. No singing, no participation from the congregation. All outward signs of Catholic enthusiasm had to be gotten rid of, as a matter of life and death. Consequently, devotion became very very individualistic. Just me and Jesus, who happen to be at Mass with a hundred other people. You couldn’t evangelize really either. The ones who were doing these things were the Protestants, whom you naturally hated and disliked because they were persecuting and killing you. This all came over to America with the Irish.
Many traditionalists find loud enthusiasm, or charismatic expression, or the kind of surrender to the evangelizing power of the Holy Spirit to be “too Protestant” for these reasons. Consequently, the result is rather like the Apostles pre-Pentecost behavior. They were closed up in the Upper Room (or by analogy, the local parish), terrified for their lives (by analogy either of the cruel British, or the decadent and evil world), and doing little about their faith by simply praying.
Charismatics are far more like the Apostles after Pentecost. They’ve received the Holy Spirit, and they’ve drunk deeply of this Spirit, and proclaim in tongues and walk in the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. Like the Apostles, they are thought of as drunk, or high (or by many traditionalists, too Protestant). They’re joyful Catholics, and are consequently accused of emotionalism and being too “happy clappy”.
I don’t approve of rock music at Mass, even though I do approve of loud music at Mass (I have news for you: heaven ain’t quiet). The Church has set guidelines for the music which we should follow. That being said, charismatic liturgies and worship (at least from my experience) point far more to the reality of the presence of God than traditionalist ones. Traditionalists look bored and asleep.
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