Differences between the Traditional Catholics and Charismatic Catholics

[guanophore]

So what’s the procedure to get the gifts, then? How is it done?

The procedure is clearly promulgated in the Rite of Baptism.

All the gifts of the HS are sealed in us when we are baptized. They are renewed in Confirmation, and can be fanned into flame with proper catechesis and use of them.

2 Tim 1:6-7
6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands; 7 for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control.

There isn’t some official procedure, the Holy Spirit either gives it to you or it doesn’t.

I think this is misleading. The Rite of Baptism is most certainly an “official procedure”. And of course the HS gives gifts to everyone!

1 Cor 12:4-8

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

God inspires gifts in everyone. Each person is given a manifestation of the Spirit for the good of the Church. What the CCR is teach people how to identify and use their gifts.

So what’s the procedure to get the gifts, then? How is it done?

Most infants lie in the arms of the parent or Godparent, while the parish priests pours water on the head while saying "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[guanophore]

So they just manifest spontaneously at Charismatic meetings, or outside? How would you know if they were real or true?

Yes, they manifest in prayer meetings, and outside prayer meetings. We know they are real and true by the fruits they produce.

Exactly, that’s where the trouble begins. It is really a question of if it is a “new pentacost” or not.

I agree. Either God answered the prayers of the Holy Fathers in the affirmative, or all the Popes, the council, and the Bishops have been misled.

You’ll have to test it. If someone starts saying prophecies, you have to confirm whether it’s true or not.

I can discern this for myself, but it is not my duty in the Church to pull out the weeds from among the wheat. All charisms are subject to discernment by the authorities appointed by Christ over the Church.

 

[Inquiringperson]

Yes, they manifest in prayer meetings, and outside prayer meetings. We know they are real and true by the fruits they produce.

I agree. Either God answered the prayers of the Holy Fathers in the affirmative, or all the Popes, the council, and the Bishops have been misled.

I can discern this for myself, but it is not my duty in the Church to pull out the weeds from among the wheat. All charisms are subject to discernment by the authorities appointed by Christ over the Church.

I meant for people like Joseph Smith, as they claim to receive prophecy from God. And there can be Catholic Joseph Smiths.

 

[Inquiringperson]

The procedure is clearly promulgated in the Rite of Baptism.

All the gifts of the HS are sealed in us when we are baptized. They are renewed in Confirmation, and can be fanned into flame with proper catechesis and use of them.

2 Tim 1:6-7
6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands; 7 for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control.

I think this is misleading. The Rite of Baptism is most certainly an “official procedure”. And of course the HS gives gifts to everyone!

1 Cor 12:4-8

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

God inspires gifts in everyone. Each person is given a manifestation of the Spirit for the good of the Church. What the CCR is teach people how to identify and use their gifts.

Most infants lie in the arms of the parent or Godparent, while the parish priests pours water on the head while saying "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

So, are you saying that God gives us extraordinary gifts when we are Baptized? Makes sense.

 

[guanophore]

I meant for people like Joseph Smith, as they claim to receive prophecy from God. And there can be Catholic Joseph Smiths.

No, there can be no “Catholic Joseph Smiths”. A Catholic is subject to the teaching and authority of the church, handed down from the Apostles. Part of this Sacred Tradition is that Sacred Revelation closed with the death of the last Apostle. Therefore, if a person is Catholic, they will not make a false claim that God has revealed something that is not contained in the Sacred Tradition.

All of the gifts, whether hierarchical or charismatic, are subject to the discerning authority of the Church, which comes through the Apostolic Succession. When a person like Joseph Smith denies this authority over himself, it is a sign of disobedience and lack of unity with the Church.

 

[Melchior_1]

Related to the topic at hand;

The Companions of the Cross is a Society of Apostolic Life based in Ottawa, Ontario. It is a community of Roman Catholic priests, which is Eucharistic, Charismatic, Marian and Magisterial. It was founded by Father Robert Bedard and was approved in 2002 by Vatican City as a Society of Apostolic Life.

It’s right there, in their four pillars. Charismatic. That would have had to been sent to the Vatican for approval. And wouldn’t you know, they were approved by the Vatican. In 2002, I may add, when our current Pope was in charge of stomping out heresies.

If the charismatic renewal was heretical or not valid, if being charismatic was not valid, Father Bob would have been reprimanded. The ordinations they do would not be accepted. Instead, they approved his community becoming a Society of Apostolic Life. And my Bishop has actually given them more parishes to run.

Father Bob passed away today. I wonder what people would think if his name came up for canonization. Societies of Apostolic Life don’t appear out of thin air, after all.

 

[Jack_Bauer]

What are the differences? As a side question, is Lifeteen Charismatic?

Now that seems like the comparison between Kumquats and Brazil Nuts. But I’m not saying which is which.

 

[ClayPots47]

A very nice response, thanks ClayPots.

I probably didn’t state it very well, but I see the need to differentiate between ordinary graces that are given, by baptism, to help us maintain our faith and to maintain our station in life, and which helps us to be open to graces needed to merit Heaven when we die (which the Church has always taught), and extraordinary graces such as speaking in tongues and prophesy. We can agree that the Church has not taught that we are to go and seek extraordinary graces such as speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Yes, we can agree. I mentioned the ordinary charisms that we all use, and listed several, as they were the primary charisms used by the Apostles. Even in the infant Church, they were the more important ones (As Paul points out). We all have them available to us by virtue of our baptism. The ordinary charisms are rooted in charity and are intended to be of service to the Church. While the extraordinary charisms edify the Church (except for prayer tongues which edify the individual), they are not essential to our salvation, and do not increase charity in the individual with the charism.

But what the Apostles in the upper room were given was something else. They were able to speak, as followers of Christ, about Him in languages that everyone could understand at the same time. And all of them, save St. John, were martyred. How many of the CCR folks are able to go out and preach to unbelievers in this manner? In languages that the CCR folks don’t know, but that those unbelievers who are hearing can understand in their own language? And yet they cite scripture about the Apostles in the upper room, as if they have what they had. This is the problem. This is what I’m getting at.

This was a type of Apostolic or Ministry Tongue, and it isn’t common today. Some saints have exhibited this type of tongue, such as St Anthony of Padua. While the Apostles certainly had this tongue, it wasn’t commonly seen in other communities such as the Corinthians. The type of Apostolic Tongue Paul mentions in that community, is not the one where the listener hears the message in his own tongue, but the kind where one gives a prophecy; another with the gift of interpretation then gives the message in the tongue of those present. I see more activity of the latter type, than the former type. The Upper Room was a different time and place, and the charisms used then, may not be the same seen today. The Church has different needs today, and there may not be a real need for the Apostolic Tongue in which the people understood the message in their own language. Many people who do missionary work have people who are naturally fluent in the local language, today’s world offers education that did not exist during Apostolic times. I can think of very few circumstances where there would not be at least one person in the missionary party who is fluent in the local language. Simply put, the opportunity to use such a charism rarely presents itself.

We are attempting to find a word that accurately describes how Catholics are to be “open to,” or “yield” to the extraordinary graces. Since there is really not an accurate word to describe what it is exactly, isn’t this perhaps indicative that the Church has never taught it? The Church is very specific in her language. If the Church had always taught that we should seek out, be open to, or yield to extraordinary graces, than she would have come up with the proper terminology long before now. That we have to struggle with finding a term that desribes it means that it’s not what the Church has always taught.

No. Charisms, both ordinary and extraordinary don’t come to us without some action on our part. The Holy Spirit won’t violate our Free Will, the exercise of a charism requires our cooperation. We can get hung up on semantics because a certain word isn’t used to describe what exactly it is, but the idea is certainly present. And the Church has described the action on our part. Here are excerpts from recent sources.

POST-SYNODAL
APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION
CHRISTIFIDELES LAICI
OF
HIS HOLINESS
JOHN PAUL II
ON THE VOCATION AND THE MISSION
OF THE LAY FAITHFUL
IN THE CHURCH AND IN THE WORLD

Charisms

The charisms are received in gratitude both on the part of the one who receives them, and also on the part of the entire Church. They are in fact a singularly rich source of grace for the vitality of the apostolate and for the holiness of the whole Body of Christ, provided that they be gifts that come truly from the Spirit and are exercised in full conformity with the authentic promptings of the Spirit. In this sense the discernment of charisms is always necessary. Indeed, the Synod Fathers have stated: "The action of the Holy Spirit, who breathes where he will, is not always easily recognized and received. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_30121988_christifideles-laici_en.html

Whether these charisms be very remarkable or more simple and widely diffused, they are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation since they are fitting and useful for the needs of the Church. [Lumen Gentium 12]

(Continued in next post)

 

[ClayPots47]

(Continued from last post)

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Charisms

800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well.

Here is the thesaurus entry for “open to”, which shows why it’s not quite the correct word.

Main Entry: open to  
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: ready for use
Synonyms: accessible, achievable, applicable, at hand, at one’s disposal, attainable, come-at-able, convenient, derivable from, feasible, free, getatable, handy, obtainable, on deck, on hand, on tap, open to , possible, prepared, procurable, purchasable, reachable, ready willing and able, realizable, securable, serviceable, up for grabs, usable, vacant

It’s not correct in that we are not always “ready for use”, there has to be an action on our part. We have to yield or accept, receive, recognize; the words the Church uses.

Here is the entry for “yield”

Main Entry: yield
Definition: allow
Synonyms: accede, accept, acknowledge, acquiesce, assent, bow, break, concede, concur, consent, go along with, permit, surrender,

And below are the ones for “accepted”, “recognized” and “received” used by the Church in the above quoted sources. Note what they have in common? “Accept” is a synonym for “yield”, “recognized” and “received”. Msgr Walsh used the theologically correct term to state that the action on our part to reception of charisms, both ordinary and extraordinary, is to yield.

Main Entry: accepted
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: receive something given physically
Synonyms: acquire, welcome
Notes: accept is ‘take or agree to’ and except means ‘exclude, leave out’

Main Entry: recognized
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: acknowledged
Synonyms: accepted, admitted, allowed,

Main Entry: receive
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: take in guest or member
Synonyms: accept, admit, allow entrance, let in, let through, permit, welcome

While the Church hasn’t always taught that we should seek out, or to be open to charisms, she does currently teach that we should yield, accept, receive, recognize them. This apply’s to all charisms, both ordinary or extraordinary.

Though the popes have given personal approval to CCR (with precautions), this does not mean that we, as Catholics, have to do what the CCR folks do, or accept accept CCR. (We should of course, try to be charitable toward the CCR folks, though, which I struggle with at times.)
For instance, our dear Pope Benedict XV1 has written and spoken more extensively on the subject of enviromentalism, or responsible stewardship, rather, than he has on the subject of Renewal. But does this mean that we all have to accept everything that he says on the subject? Does it mean, then, that we all have to start participating in, say, recycling? No, it doesn’t.

I have no argument with you here. CCR is a spiritual movement: while the popes have given their assent, they haven’t said all must accept it or participate in it. Just like not all have to be involved in Legion of Mary, The Blue Army, the Holy Name Society or a host of spiritual movements. We should accept their presence in the Church, because various popes have supported them. But we need not accept or partake in their individual spiritualities.

 

[ClayPots47]

Related to the topic at hand;

The Companions of the Cross is a Society of Apostolic Life based in Ottawa, Ontario. It is a community of Roman Catholic priests, which is Eucharistic, Charismatic, Marian and Magisterial. It was founded by Father Robert Bedard and was approved in 2002 by Vatican City as a Society of Apostolic Life.
.

I have mentioned this community elsewhere.

Disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ

We are a Community of Franciscan and Charismatic Sisters. We seek to follow in the footprints of our Lord Jesus Christ through the profession of public vows of Chastity, Poverty, and Obedience. We also make a Promise of Fellowship in the Spirit with all members of our Institute.

We are a contemplative community with evangelistic apostolates, following the Rule of the Third Order Regular of Saint Francis of Assisi, and the Constitutions of the Disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. We were born of the Charismatic Renewal and have a Charismatic sprituality that includes praise and worship, and the use of the charismatic gifts of the Spirit both in prayer and in ministry.

We were erected as a Religious Institute of Diocesan Right on April 7, 1991 by Most Reverend Leroy T. Matthiesen, the sixth Bishop of Amarillo, Texas. Our Motherhouse is located in the Diocese of Amarillo, and we have had a mission house in Monterrey, Mexico, since 1977. We also had mission houses in other locations such as Lubbock, Texas, and Miramar, Florida.

From the history section:

On August 20th , 1991, the Apostolic Pro-Nuncio, Archbishop Agustino Cacchiavillan, came to visit our Community, the Bishop had stated that we were the first Charismatic Religious Community in history.

Would this community even be allowed to exist if the CCR was heretical? Would they have been allowed to establish mission houses elsewhere? The sisters wear traditional Franciscan habits, and the community continues to grow considerably. There are a lot of young sisters in this community.

 

[AntiqueCatholic]

So we have all the gifts after baptism and activation can occur if we yield to the Holy Spirit? And we know that their activation is by the Holy Spirit if we prophesy truly: foretell the future correctly? Does this happen in anyone’s local group?

 

[Denise1957]

(Continued from last post)

Here is the thesaurus entry for “open to”, which shows why it’s not quite the correct word.

Main Entry: open to  
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: ready for use
Synonyms: accessible, achievable, applicable, at hand, at one’s disposal, attainable, come-at-able, convenient, derivable from, feasible, free, getatable, handy, obtainable, on deck, on hand, on tap, open to , possible, prepared, procurable, purchasable, reachable, ready willing and able, realizable, securable, serviceable, up for grabs, usable, vacant

It’s not correct in that we are not always “ready for use”, there has to be an action on our part. We have to yield or accept, receive, recognize; the words the Church uses.

Here is the entry for “yield”

Main Entry: yield
Definition: allow
Synonyms: accede, accept, acknowledge, acquiesce, assent, bow, break, concede, concur, consent, go along with, permit, surrender,

And below are the ones for “accepted”, “recognized” and “received” used by the Church in the above quoted sources. Note what they have in common? “Accept” is a synonym for “yield”, “recognized” and “received”. Msgr Walsh used the theologically correct term to state that the action on our part to reception of charisms, both ordinary and extraordinary, is to yield.

Main Entry: accepted
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: receive something given physically
Synonyms: acquire, welcome
Notes: accept is ‘take or agree to’ and except means ‘exclude, leave out’

Main Entry: recognized
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: acknowledged
Synonyms: accepted, admitted, allowed,

Main Entry: receive
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: take in guest or member
Synonyms: accept, admit, allow entrance, let in, let through, permit, welcome

While the Church hasn’t always taught that we should seek out, or to be open to charisms, she does currently teach that we should yield, accept, receive, recognize them. This apply’s to all charisms, both ordinary or extraordinary.

I have no argument with you here. CCR is a spiritual movement: while the popes have given their assent, they haven’t said all must accept it or participate in it. Just like not all have to be involved in Legion of Mary, The Blue Army, the Holy Name Society or a host of spiritual movements. We should accept their presence in the Church, because various popes have supported them. But we need not accept or partake in their individual spiritualities.

Thanks for your explanation here, but the Church does not teach that we are to yield to speaking in tongues and prophesying. If a Catholic recieves these things, unasked for in any manner, then it can be accepted. We are not to seek them out or pray for them.

You see, the CCR folks are focusing great attention on the extraordinary graces such as speaking in tongues and prophesying. But these things do not impart sanctifying grace into our soul, such as does the ordinary graces given by the Holy Ghost does as a means to our salvation. The Church is not very specific in her language regarding the extraordinay gifts. If speaking in tongues and prophesying were direct means of having sanctifying grace put into our souls, then the Church would provide specific terminology for this, and you wouldn’t have to look up the meaning of terms.

How the does Holy Ghost impart sanctifying grace into our souls, which is necessary for salvation? Firstly, we must work on our chief faults, strive to stay in a state of grace through confession and worthy reception of the Eucharist. Prayer helps with this. When we are baptized, all sin is taken away. If we were to die right after baptism, and not having committed any grave sin, we’d go straight to Heaven. After baptism, we must try to stay in a state of grace, but also to work on our chief faults. If we commit a grave sin, this decreases grace in our soul, and leaves us less open or even unable to receiving graces so needed for salvation. Speaking in tongues and prophesying is not a part of the sanctifying graces at work here. It’s a different category.

Personally, I find it’s enough work just working on my chief faults and not committing a grave sin, and not committing even venial sins if I can help it. Assuming that CCR folks are also continually working on thier chief faults, going to confession, staying in a state of grace, and partaking in worthy reception of the Eucharist, how can you do these things, and also focus so much time and energy on the Extraordinary stuff as well??

 

[Denise1957]

Related to the topic at hand;

The Companions of the Cross is a Society of Apostolic Life based in Ottawa, Ontario. It is a community of Roman Catholic priests, which is Eucharistic, Charismatic, Marian and Magisterial. It was founded by Father Robert Bedard and was approved in 2002 by Vatican City as a Society of Apostolic Life.

It’s right there, in their four pillars. Charismatic. That would have had to been sent to the Vatican for approval. And wouldn’t you know, they were approved by the Vatican. In 2002, I may add, when our current Pope was in charge of stomping out heresies.

If the charismatic renewal was heretical or not valid, if being charismatic was not valid, Father Bob would have been reprimanded. The ordinations they do would not be accepted. Instead, they approved his community becoming a Society of Apostolic Life. And my Bishop has actually given them more parishes to run.

Father Bob passed away today. I wonder what people would think if his name came up for canonization. Societies of Apostolic Life don’t appear out of thin air, after all.

Yet one of the priests of The Companions of the Cross was seriously reprimanded, in 2005, I think. He’s still banned from doing healing Masses on Toronto, right?

I’ll say a prayer for Fr. Bob today, though.

 

[Inquiringperson]

No, there can be no “Catholic Joseph Smiths”. A Catholic is subject to the teaching and authority of the church, handed down from the Apostles. Part of this Sacred Tradition is that Sacred Revelation closed with the death of the last Apostle. Therefore, if a person is Catholic, they will not make a false claim that God has revealed something that is not contained in the Sacred Tradition.

All of the gifts, whether hierarchical or charismatic, are subject to the discerning authority of the Church, which comes through the Apostolic Succession. When a person like Joseph Smith denies this authority over himself, it is a sign of disobedience and lack of unity with the Church.

Perhaps I used the wrong person. I meant for people like Veronica Lueken and the Bayside Apparitions. She was Catholic, albeit heretical. In order to prove her wrong, you needed to find either heresy or a false prophecy, and they were discovered.

 

[vardaquinn]

So we have all the gifts after baptism and activation can occur if we yield to the Holy Spirit? And we know that their activation is by the Holy Spirit if we prophesy truly: foretell the future correctly? Does this happen in anyone’s local group?

Prophecy is not primarily fortelling the future. Look at the Old Testament prophecies. Only a handful are actually fortelling the future. Prophecy is primarily God speaking directly to His people through the mouth of a prophet. Let me give you an example. A group of charismatics guys I was with were having a meeting discussing our spiritual lives. After each person summed up what he was going through currently, we would all gather around and pray over the person. One person was really having a rough time, and when we prayed over him one of the guys prophesied something simple which was basically like “I am your fortress and refuge” as it says in many of the Psalms.

 

[Melchior_1]

Yet one of the priests of The Companions of the Cross was seriously reprimanded, in 2005, I think. He’s still banned from doing healing Masses on Toronto, right?

I’ll say a prayer for Fr. Bob today, though.

One Priest. You’re going to bring up one Priest? That’s like me judging the entire SSPX because of Bishop Williamson’s Holocaust comments (which I don’t, of course. One person’s outrageous comments doesn’t mean everyone is like that).

1. The SSPX were reprimanded too. Their whole Society was. Versus ONE Companions priest. Just saying.
2. One bad Priest out of how many? Seriously.
3. Said Priest is not even with the Companions anymore.
4. The Archbishop of Ottawa is THAT confident in these guys that he’s given them more parishes to run.
5. Father Bob is praying for you too. Yes, I’m that confident he’s there.

 

[Denise1957]

One Priest. You’re going to bring up one Priest? That’s like me judging the entire SSPX because of Bishop Williamson’s Holocaust comments (which I don’t, of course. One person’s outrageous comments doesn’t mean everyone is like that).

1. The SSPX were reprimanded too. Their whole Society was. Versus ONE Companions priest. Just saying.
2. One bad Priest out of how many? Seriously.
3. Said Priest is not even with the Companions anymore.
4. The Archbishop of Ottawa is THAT confident in these guys that he’s given them more parishes to run.
5. Father Bob is praying for you too. Yes, I’m that confident he’s there.

One priest, yes, who went way, way over the top in his healing Masses, and people were injured. The Companions are a relatively small group compared to the SSPX.

The SSPX were rightly reprimanded, and justly so; I’ll be the first to say that there are extremists within traditional Catholic circles, and it’s something that I’m very concerned about. I’m a realist, and have no interest in pretending that problems in trad circles don’t exist…they most certainly do. And problems in the CCR circles exist, too. How do we avoid extremes? Pay proper attention to Church teaching.

 

[Melchior_1]

One priest, yes, who went way, way over the top in his healing Masses, and people were injured. The Companions are a relatively small group compared to the SSPX.

The SSPX were rightly reprimanded, and justly so; I’ll be the first to say that there are extremists within traditional Catholic circles, and it’s something that I’m very concerned about. I’m a realist, and have no interest in pretending that problems in trad circles don’t exist…they most certainly do. And problems in the CCR circles exist, too. How do we avoid extremes? Pay proper attention to Church teaching.

You won’t hear me say otherwise. I’m not the biggest fan of Father Fernando, and I was even less impressed with his circumstances leaving the Companions.

So because the group is smaller it means we can take the actions of one Priest and hold it against them? As opposed to slightly larger or simply larger groups?

I use the Companions as an example though that Rome clearly sees no issue with the CCR. When they reprimanded Father Fernando, it was him as an individual, not the Companions as a whole.

Meanwhile, look whose bio I found on Catholic Answers website? catholic.com/profiles/fr-scott-mccaig

Father Scott McCaig, current General Superior of the Society. he has a radio show on this website’s radio section on Forms of Prayer.

 

[Denise1957]

You won’t hear me say otherwise. I’m not the biggest fan of Father Fernando, and I was even less impressed with his circumstances leaving the Companions.

So because the group is smaller it means we can take the actions of one Priest and hold it against them? As opposed to slightly larger or simply larger groups?

I use the Companions as an example though that Rome clearly sees no issue with the CCR. When they reprimanded Father Fernando, it was him as an individual, not the Companions as a whole.

Meanwhile, look whose bio I found on Catholic Answers website? catholic.com/profiles/fr-scott-mccaig

Father Scott McCaig, current General Superior of the Society. he has a radio show on this website’s radio section on Forms of Prayer.

I’m sorry that I implied that the actions of one priest could be held against a group. And you’re right, size of the group really isn’t important. But I’m not sure that it can be said that Rome has no issues with CCR just because the Companions are still going well even after the crazy behavior of one of their own. I would think that Rome is keeping track of all these things having to do with CCR. After all, there still isn’t difinitive magisterial teaching yet on CCR. Probably after that situation, the Companions are careful not to overstep the boundaries of prudence. That’s a good thing.

Also, Fr. Fernando’s actions had directly to do with what the CCR promotes: healing Masses. It’s just that this priest carried healing Masses way too far. And I wonder why he wasn’t stopped before the situation got out of control. But granted that’s difficult to do sometimes.

 

[Melchior_1]

I’m sorry that I implied that the actions of one priest could be held against a group. And you’re right, size of the group really isn’t important. But I’m not sure that it can be said that Rome has no issues with CCR just because the Companions are still going well even after the crazy behavior of one of their own. I would think that Rome is keeping track of all these things having to do with CCR. After all, there still isn’t difinitive magisterial teaching yet on CCR. Probably after that situation, the Companions are careful not to overstep the boundaries of prudence. That’s a good thing.

Also, Fr. Fernando’s actions had directly to do with what the CCR promotes: healing Masses. It’s just that this priest carried healing Masses way too far. And I wonder why he wasn’t stopped before the situation got out of control. But granted that’s difficult to do sometimes.

I think we can both agree that every movement and every group has a few bad people, and we shouldn’t judge the whole group based on that. And of course Rome is concerned about elements of the CCR, just like they’re concerned about traditionalist elements as well.

We’ve seen how difficult it can be to stop something that’s going off the rails in several circles within the Church. In the case of Father Fernando, if I recall correctly the Companions gave him some room to do the work he was doing before he joined them (he ran a healing ministry before joining them). After some incidents happened (like the one you mentioned), they reined him in a bit. That, among other reasons, is why I’m pretty sure he left the Society, and why I’ve lost respect for him (I was neutral to begin with). They gave him freedom, he abused that freedom. And when they decided like a parent to put in some restrictions, he decided to leave.

But people who take things to the extreme do tend to help the more moderate people. The FSSP are very reasonable chaps, and I’m sure they learned from the mistakes of the more…misguided traditionalists, like the SSPV.