Differences between the Traditional Catholics and Charismatic Catholics

[vardaquinn]

Can’t a person be both a traditional Catholic and a charismatic Catholic? I consider myself to be both although I am only slightly charismatic.

What, you too? I thought I was the only one! Yes. I cam a traditionalist, and a charismatic. I do and support all the traditional stuff, and I do a lot of the charismatic stuff. So you can. I do it.

And, again, I would argue that if one is going to be traditional, one HAS to be charismatic. In the Catholic Church, being filled with the Holy Spirit and charisms was the first thing that ever happened. Speaking in tongues is as traditional as anything. XD It was the first thing the Catholic Church did.

You know, really, it’s a stupid argument. Read what the Church says about the Holy Spirit charisms. Follow it. End of story.

 

[justtryin]

Some also do not seem to accept the New Testament as part of Sacred Tradition, so when Charismatics embrace what is written there about the HS, we are considered “protestant” in our thinking.

WOW!!! Bear false witness much do we? Find one Catholic who does not accept the New Testament. And no, the words “SEEM” and “SOME” do not disqualify this statement as false witness.

 

[vardaquinn]

WOW!!! Bear false witness much do we? Find one Catholic who does not accept the New Testament. And no, the words “SEEM” and “SOME” do not disqualify this statement as false witness.

Several of the posters on here have rejected clear explicit teaching on the charisms and the Holy Spirit from the New Testament, and have made statements that are openly contrary to it. Though I’m sure these people would never claim that the New Testament is not Scripture, and sincerely don’t believe that, by their statements they are rejecting the infallible word of God. Even if they claim “well, you’re interpreting that wrong” (when the Church says otherwise). I mean like… “The manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERYONE for the upbuilding of the Church”, like… the charisms in the last sentence. How else could you possibly interpret that?

 

[guanophore]

True, but that’s not what the question was. “Charismatic” refers here to those Catholics who seek after or pray for the extraordinary gifts such as speaking in tongues and prophesy.

No, Denise. This is not a proper definition of what it is to be Charismatic. Charismatics seek to live a life empowered by the Holy Spirit as described in the New Testament. As such, they seek to “be filled wth the Spirit, and not fulfill the desires of the flesh”. We receive the answer to the prayer of XXIII that the Church has been renewed by a New Pentecost. We consecrate our lives to the Holy Spirit.

Act of Consecration to the Holy Spirit
O Holy Spirit,
Divine Spirit of light and love,
I consecrate to Thee my understanding,
heart, and will,
my whole being for time and eternity.
May my understanding be always submissive
to Thy heavenly inspirations,
and to the teaching of the Catholic Church,
of which Thou are the infallible guide;
may my heart be ever inflamed
with love of God and of my neighbor;
may my will
be ever conformed to the divine will;
and may my whole life
be a faithful imitation of the life
and virtues of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
to whom with the Father and Thee
be honour and glory forever. Amen.

We are open to receive any and all gifts that the Spirit may manifest within us in the fulfillment of this act of consecration.

The Church does not teach that these things are to be sought after with baptism or even confirmation. Perhaps in Anglicanism they are - but it seems unlikely.

She teaches that we are to seek the Giver, and yield to the gifts that he has given us to fulfill the duties that have been set aside for us to accomplish in this life.

Charismatics believe what is written in the NT, that “4 there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” 1 Cor 12:4-7

It is our duty to cooperate with the manifestion of God’s gifts in and through us for the common good.

This does not necessarily include tongues, prophesy, or any other specific gift. He distributes the gifts as He wills.

 

[guanophore]

WOW!!! Bear false witness much do we? Find one Catholic who does not accept the New Testament. And no, the words “SEEM” and “SOME” do not disqualify this statement as false witness.

I did not say it was not “accepted”. I said it is not considered by some to represent the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church ie; what is written in it’s pages is not Traditional Catholicism.

 

[Denise1957]

No, Denise. This is not a proper definition of what it is to be Charismatic. Charismatics seek to live a life empowered by the Holy Spirit as described in the New Testament. As such, they seek to “be filled wth the Spirit, and not fulfill the desires of the flesh”. We receive the answer to the prayer of XXIII that the Church has been renewed by a New Pentecost. We consecrate our lives to the Holy Spirit.

Act of Consecration to the Holy Spirit
O Holy Spirit,
Divine Spirit of light and love,
I consecrate to Thee my understanding,
heart, and will,
my whole being for time and eternity.
May my understanding be always submissive
to Thy heavenly inspirations,
and to the teaching of the Catholic Church,
of which Thou are the infallible guide;
may my heart be ever inflamed
with love of God and of my neighbor;
may my will
be ever conformed to the divine will;
and may my whole life
be a faithful imitation of the life
and virtues of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
to whom with the Father and Thee
be honour and glory forever. Amen.

We are open to receive any and all gifts that the Spirit may manifest within us in the fulfillment of this act of consecration.

She teaches that we are to seek the Giver, and yield to the gifts that he has given us to fulfill the duties that have been set aside for us to accomplish in this life.

Charismatics believe what is written in the NT, that “4 there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” 1 Cor 12:4-7

It is our duty to cooperate with the manifestion of God’s gifts in and through us for the common good.

This does not necessarily include tongues, prophesy, or any other specific gift. He distributes the gifts as He wills.

quote from above post:

“Charismatics believe what is written in the NT…”

No, Charismatics believe in their own private interpretation, which has little to do with what the Church actually teaches.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Several of the posters on here have rejected clear explicit teaching on the charisms and the Holy Spirit from the New Testament, and have made statements that are openly contrary to it. Though I’m sure these people would never claim that the New Testament is not Scripture, and sincerely don’t believe that, by their statements they are rejecting the infallible word of God. Even if they claim “well, you’re interpreting that wrong” (when the Church says otherwise). I mean like… “The manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERYONE for the upbuilding of the Church”, like… the charisms in the last sentence. How else could you possibly interpret that?

What happens in the CCR is far removed form what happened on Pentecost, the Apostles spoke in a foreign language as did the Ephesians, what was going on at Corinth is uncertain, St. Paul was far from clear when he wrote the Corinthians. One thing is clear though, the proliferation of tongues in Corinth was a “sign” of there “unbelief” not of their “belief”.

Do you encourage women to speak in tongues? I would hope not, that teaching is also very clear.

 

[justtryin]

I did not say it was not “accepted”.** I said it is not considered by some to represent the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church **ie; what is written in it’s pages is not Traditional Catholicism.

And the difference is what…???

Some also do not seem to accept the New Testament as part of Sacred Tradition, so when Charismatics embrace what is written there about the HS, we are considered “protestant” in our thinking.

Seems you just repeated the same charge. Name Catholics who do not** accept**, sorry, consider the New Testament a part of Sacred Tradition.

 

[guanophore]

quote from above post:

“Charismatics believe what is written in the NT…”

No, Charismatics believe in their own private interpretation, which has little to do with what the Church actually teaches.

Hopefully you will be able to shed light on the verses I posted, so that we can better understand why we see them differently?

 

[guanophore]

… what was going on at Corinth is uncertain, St. Paul was far from clear when he wrote the Corinthians. One thing is clear though, the proliferation of tongues in Corinth was a “sign” of there “unbelief” not of their “belief”…

This is one of the most interesting “private interpretations” of Scripture I have ever read. I have not even come across something that stretches this far from among those Protestant Dispensationalists!

 

[guanophore]

  And the difference is what...???

By making a distinction between them, the reader is able to divorce oneself from what is printed there as having application to today, since what is written in the pages is not congruent with their concept of “traditional Catholic faith”.

 Seems you just repeated the same charge. Name Catholics who do not** accept**, sorry, **consider** the New Testament a part of Sacred Tradition.

I don’t know what to tell you, just. I only learned that in the last few weeks participating on this thread. Perhaps when you read over the thread, you can find the consistent claims of the members who believe that there is nothing in the tradition of the Catholic Church that supports the CCR. This, by definition, must exclude the NT.

 

[Irish_Polock]

This is one of the most interesting “private interpretations” of Scripture I have ever read. I have not even come across something that stretches this far from among those Protestant Dispensationalists!

I guess your “private interpretation” is golden.

 

[waterbrook]

Is this an Anglican description? You are Anglican, right?

I wouldnt necessarily call it an Anglican definition. I am Anglican but to be Anglican doesnt mean that ones faith is entirely different from that of Ctholicism. I was educated at a catholic school, studied theology to post graduate level in a catholic college, have done RCIA 3or 4 times and go to mass quite regularly. I have a very little experience of the catholic charismatic movement, my spiritual director is catholic.

 

[guanophore]

I wouldnt necessarily call it an Anglican definition. I am Anglican but to be Anglican doesnt mean that ones faith is entirely different from that of Ctholicism. I was educated at a catholic school, studied theology to post graduate level in a catholic college, have done RCIA 3or 4 times and go to mass quite regularly. I have a very little experience of the catholic charismatic movement, my spiritual director is catholic.

Are you interested in such experience? The Holy See has promulgated resources for this purpose.

 

[waterbrook]

Are you interested in such experience? The Holy See has promulgated resources for this purpose.

A little curious, I could access a local group in our parish but I dont want to particularly , the experience I have had was not particularly helpful to me, I think its a case of '‘horses for courses’ as the saying goes.

 

[Inquiringperson]

No, Denise. This is not a proper definition of what it is to be Charismatic. Charismatics seek to live a life empowered by the Holy Spirit as described in the New Testament. As such, they seek to “be filled wth the Spirit, and not fulfill the desires of the flesh”. We receive the answer to the prayer of XXIII that the Church has been renewed by a New Pentecost. We consecrate our lives to the Holy Spirit.

Act of Consecration to the Holy Spirit
O Holy Spirit,
Divine Spirit of light and love,
I consecrate to Thee my understanding,
heart, and will,
my whole being for time and eternity.
May my understanding be always submissive
to Thy heavenly inspirations,
and to the teaching of the Catholic Church,
of which Thou are the infallible guide;
may my heart be ever inflamed
with love of God and of my neighbor;
may my will
be ever conformed to the divine will;
and may my whole life
be a faithful imitation of the life
and virtues of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
to whom with the Father and Thee
be honour and glory forever. Amen.

We are open to receive any and all gifts that the Spirit may manifest within us in the fulfillment of this act of consecration.

She teaches that we are to seek the Giver, and yield to the gifts that he has given us to fulfill the duties that have been set aside for us to accomplish in this life.

Charismatics believe what is written in the NT, that “4 there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” 1 Cor 12:4-7

It is our duty to cooperate with the manifestion of God’s gifts in and through us for the common good.

This does not necessarily include tongues, prophesy, or any other specific gift. He distributes the gifts as He wills.

This sounds like what Traditionalists are supposed to do. Use God’s gifts to go to heaven and help people.

 

[guanophore]

This sounds like what Traditionalists are supposed to do. Use God’s gifts to go to heaven and help people.

Exactly! That is why Charismatics think of themselves as Traditionalists, and that there is no dichotomy between the two! The truth is that Charismatics have much more in common with Traditional Catholics than either of us do with liberals.

 

[Denise1957]

Hopefully you will be able to shed light on the verses I posted, so that we can better understand why we see them differently?

No, guanophore, the burden falls on you to show how your interpretion lines up with de fide Catholic teaching. Regarding what you wrote…“so that we can better understand why we see them differently,” doesn’t line up with how traditionalists would view it. You seem to insinuate that we can form our own absolute definition and conclusions as to how scripture is to be interpreted. That’s how Protestanism works, but that’s not how the Catholic Church works.

The Traditionalist would ask: How has the Church interpreted these passages?

The Charismatic would ask: Why doesn’t everyone accept what I have to say about what scripture is supposed to mean?

 

[Denise1957]

Exactly! That is why Charismatics think of themselves as Traditionalists, and that there is no dichotomy between the two! The truth is that Charismatics have much more in common with Traditional Catholics than either of us do with liberals.

Healing Masses, and prayer groups that presumably invoke the Holy Ghost to move people to speak in tongues and prophesy are not traditional. They are novelties. The Church allows them, with precautions, but they are still novelties. They are not traditional. And no, you can’t call something that only may have existed in the early Church as being “traditional.” That doesn’t cut it.

 

[Inquiringperson]

No, guanophore, the burden falls on you to show how your interpretion lines up with de fide Catholic teaching. Regarding what you wrote…“so that we can better understand why we see them differently,” doesn’t line up with how traditionalists would view it. You seem to insinuate that we can form our own absolute definition and conclusions as to how scripture is to be interpreted. That’s how Protestanism works, but that’s not how the Catholic Church works.

The Traditionalist would ask: How has the Church interpreted these passages?

The Charismatic would ask: Why doesn’t everyone accept what I have to say about what scripture is supposed to mean?

That would be liberal Catholics that would say that. Charismatics interpret scripture, but they have to be in line with the Church’s teaching. For example: Jesus says that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood. A liberal Catholic might think: This is too hard a teaching. I’m going to say this is symbolic. A Charismatic Catholic would have to follow that teaching, even if it’s too hard for them.

Side note: Looks like this thread has helped many Traditionalists understand Charismatics. That includes me.