Differences between the Traditional Catholics and Charismatic Catholics

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Yes, but you also said that we are not to “yield” to them. That means that you either don’t consider them valid charisms, or that you don’t consider Apostolic Exhortation as valid instruction to the faithful regarding the charisms.

And, since the Scripture specifically states that we are to do so, and we agree that Church Teaching cannot contradict itself (what is stated in the Sacred Tradition cannot contradict the Scriptures) the statements must be fully reconcilable.
It is not binding on a Catholic to have to “yield” to speaking in tongues or prophesying.

In intentionally trying to exaggerate what you think I consider or don’t consider shows that you don’t really have much of a case. I won’t respond to exaggerations.
 
It is not binding on a Catholic to have to “yield” to speaking in tongues or prophesying.
Well, we are certainly in agreement on that point. Would you say that nothing in the Apostolic Exhortation is “binding”? I am going to assume so, since it is not an infallible document.

So, what criteria does one use to determine which actions of the HS one can resist, and which one must accept?

I am thinking about Jonah in the belly of the whale. He resisted the call of God, which he was permitted to do. However, he paid quite a price. As long as we are willing to pay the price, how far can we refuse to yield and still be saved?
 
Well, we are certainly in agreement on that point. Would you say that nothing in the Apostolic Exhortation is “binding”? I am going to assume so, since it is not an infallible document.

So, what criteria does one use to determine which actions of the HS one can resist, and which one must accept?

I am thinking about Jonah in the belly of the whale. He resisted the call of God, which he was permitted to do. However, he paid quite a price. As long as we are willing to pay the price, how far can we refuse to yield and still be saved?
What a rediculous post, guanophore. The Catholic Church does not teach that we are to be saved by speaking in tongues and prohesying. Honestly, where do you come up with this stuff?
 
Well, we are certainly in agreement on that point. Would you say that nothing in the Apostolic Exhortation is “binding”? I am going to assume so, since it is not an infallible document.

So, what criteria does one use to determine which actions of the HS one can resist, and which one must accept?

I am thinking about Jonah in the belly of the whale. He resisted the call of God, which he was permitted to do. However, he paid quite a price. As long as we are willing to pay the price, how far can we refuse to yield and still be saved?
Oh my… this is exactly what St. Paul said NOT to do guanophore. Charismatic are no better off then non-charismatics.
 
You know, guanophore, when the Pharisees would ask questions of our Lord, He sometimes would not answer them. Why? Well, He did not suffer fools gladly. He was patient with His Apostles when they messed-up, but whan confronted with questions by people who really did not honestly want an answer, but who were only looking for a way to trip up Our Lord, He would sometimes remain silent. And what’s the use, really, in engaging people who are only looking for a way to prove someone wrong?

I like to listen to a Catholic radio program on EWTN called The Doctor Is In, hosted by Dr. Ray Guarendi, who is a wonderful psychologist. I’ve learned a lot from the program.
Dr. Ray sometimes reminds his listeners that when discussing the faith with someone, if they ask a question that they aren’t honestly seeking an answer to, then we should ask why the question is being asked in the first place. And that it’s okay to not answer a question if it’s only being asked for the express purpose of trying to trip someone up.

I’m going to back out of this thread for a liitle while, but just want to say that the posts of the CCR folks here have only confirmed my belief that CCR should be completely avoided by traditionalists.
 
So, what criteria does one use to determine which actions of the HS one can resist, and which one must accept?

I am thinking about Jonah in the belly of the whale. He resisted the call of God, which he was permitted to do. However, he paid quite a price. As long as we are willing to pay the price, how far can we refuse to yield and still be saved?
What a rediculous post, guanophore.
I will admit that I am musing rhetorical questions aloud, but is it that ridiculous?
The Catholic Church does not teach that we are to be saved by speaking in tongues and prohesying. Honestly, where do you come up with this stuff?
No, but She does teach that we must yield to the actions of the HS in our lives to be saved. So what criteria does one use to determine which actions of the HS can be resisted and which ones require yielding?
 
Oh my… this is exactly what St. Paul said NOT to do guanophore. Charismatic are no better off then non-charismatics.
I expect that the belly of the whale is about the same, whether you are charimsatic or not. 😃
You know, guanophore, when the Pharisees would ask questions of our Lord, He sometimes would not answer them. Why? Well, He did not suffer fools gladly. He was patient with His Apostles when they messed-up, but whan confronted with questions by people who really did not honestly want an answer, but who were only looking for a way to trip up Our Lord, He would sometimes remain silent. And what’s the use, really, in engaging people who are only looking for a way to prove someone wrong?
I agree. 👍

I am glad that you can see the illogic in refusing to yield to anything and everything that the HS wants to give.
I like to listen to a Catholic radio program on EWTN called The Doctor Is In, hosted by Dr. Ray Guarendi, who is a wonderful psychologist. I’ve learned a lot from the program.
He is so funny!
Dr. Ray sometimes reminds his listeners that when discussing the faith with someone, if they ask a question that they aren’t honestly seeking an answer to, then we should ask why the question is being asked in the first place. And that it’s okay to not answer a question if it’s only being asked for the express purpose of trying to trip someone up.
So, why do you think I was asking? You are right, I was not really expecting an answer. Resting (refusing to yield) to the call/gifts of God is an absurd position for any Catholic to have.
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 I'm going to back out of this thread for a liitle while, but just want to say that the posts of the CCR folks here have only confirmed my belief that CCR should be completely avoided by traditionalists.
I would like to thank you for your participation, as I have learned a great deal from you and the other Traditionalists on this thread. :bowdown:
 
No, but She does teach that we must yield to the actions of the HS in our lives to be saved. So what criteria does one use to determine which actions of the HS can be resisted and which ones require yielding?
Right. I mean… Seek to have an abundance of gifts! Seek to yield to the Holy spirit in every way possible. Go for it!
 
Can’t a person be both a traditional Catholic and a charismatic Catholic? I consider myself to be both although I am only slightly charismatic.
Only you can answer that question. I have seen people participating in these threads on Charismatics identify themselves as being both. A lot of that depends on how you define ‘Traditional’ and ‘Charismatic’. I would think a person who takes part in traditional devotions (Frequent Mass attendance, Frequent reception of Holy Communion, Frequent reception of Confession, Rosary, Litanies, Morning Offerings to the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts, Stations of the Cross, Divine Office, Lectio Divina, Holy Hours, Exposition and Adoration, meditation/contemplation, etc) can be involved in CCR A Traditionalist (One who observes traditional devotions but also prefers TLM/EF and tends to avoid most post Vatican II devotions (like CCR), probably would NOT be both.
 
I agree with Irish Polock; the answer is “No.”
Only Holly can really determine if she can be both. A number of CAF posters have self-identified as both Charismatic and Traditional in the threads about CCR that are posted in the Traditional Catholici8sm forum. You and Irish Pollock are entitled to your opinions, but the fact is that this is an individual decision only Holly can make. There is nothing prohibiting such a decision.
 
What they cannot accept is that the Church does not teach that the faithful should seek out or pray for the extraordinary gifts such as speaking in tongues and prophesying.
And you know this how? Have actual CCR folks stated this to you? I’m sure there are CCR folks that do fit this statement, but not all do. The big problem with these threads, is that things are being attributed by both Charismatics and Traditionalists, to all Traditionalists and Charismatics, rather than a subset of people who identify with either movement. Wish both sides would avoid the extremes.
 
Only you can answer that question. I have seen people participating in these threads on Charismatics identify themselves as being both. A lot of that depends on how you define ‘Traditional’ and ‘Charismatic’. I would think a person who takes part in traditional devotions (Frequent Mass attendance, Frequent reception of Holy Communion, Frequent reception of Confession, Rosary, Litanies, Morning Offerings to the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts, Stations of the Cross, Divine Office, Lectio Divina, Holy Hours, Exposition and Adoration, meditation/contemplation, etc) can be involved in CCR A Traditionalist (One who observes traditional devotions but also prefers TLM/EF and tends to avoid most post Vatican II devotions (like CCR), probably would NOT be both.
Hey, I’d correct you there on what you define as “traditional devotions”. Not that these aren’t traditional, but rather these aren’t traditional in the “traditionalist” sense, like most of the folks here. I should hope most people would be doing these things, these are normal Catholic devotions (for Roman Catholics anyway) that have immense spiritual significance. I’m sure you’ll find plenty of traddies and non-traddies doing all of those things.

I’d define traditional practices as holding on to things that were generally either gotten rid of, or shoved aside in the wake of the liturgical changes after V2. Many of these were never officially removed, but either not required or shoved out by modernists. Like communion rails, mantillas, kneeling to receive communion, Latin, and especially the Traditional Latin Mass. Or celebrating Mass ad orientam, incense, cassocks and surplices for altar servers, patens, and in a huge way, traditional sacred music (and I guess traditional looking churches, as in beautiful churches instead of ugly pathetic excuses for them) And some older devotions as well, I guess. I support and participate in many of these, and apply the same mentality to them that I apply to things like the charismatic gifts: Why NOT? Is it a good thing? Yes. Why be against it then? It’s important! Keep it! Use it! The more the better!!!

Someone who conforms to these traditional practices, however, seems to often have a wrong mentality against legitimate change and doing things differently than they’ve always been done, especially when it requires a change in one’s level of participation and showing signs of enthusiasm and devotion. Let me give an example, something separate from the charismatic issue. I support receiving under both species, for the same reasons as I support most traditional practices. Why not? I have heard many traditionalists argue against it, trying to make the case that because it’s not necessary it shouldn’t be done. It seems they’re really against it because it’s a change that’s a deviation from the norms they were used to.

So, I can see people with that mentality being against the charismatic movement. It’s different, new, demanding. I don’t see how it conflicts with most traditional practices, but nearly every single “traditional Catholic” I’ve brought this up with (on and off the internet) seem to think that it conflicts with being a “traditionalist”. I don’t see how. As I say, I’m a traditional Catholic, meaning I follow most of these traditional devotions and practices. I’m also a charismatic.

We shouldn’t hold on to things for the sake of holding on to them, and especially to the point where it hinders us from doing different, but good and important, things.
 
Okay, ClayPots, so how many CCR folks do you personally know - who supposedly speak in tongues and prophesy - who did not intentionally seek these supposed gifts out?
To the best of my knowledge, most of them. Because the Life in the Spirit seminar and continuing catechesis do not teach that we are to intentionally receive the the extraordinary charisms. While prayer tongues if frequently manifested, I have seen very few instances in which one spoke in tongues a prophecy, and another with the gilt of interpretation spoke the prophecy in the vernacular. I have also seen prophecy in general occur rather infrequently in the prayer groups. What I saw more of, was Spirit-filled members recognizing the ordinary charisms they are called to live, and becoming more involved in their parish and the surrounding community. The bulk of the meeting followed the A.C.T.S. - (Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving, Supplication) structure for prayer. There also were involved clergymen, pastors/priests who provided pastoral support and presided over any liturgies. There sometimes are “loose cannons”, who need to be approached by either the leaders or a priests, in order to correct them. Often the human spirit (and a preoccupation with extraordinary charisms) manifests itself in some individuals.

I once went on a Marian pilgrimage to a shrine. We prayed an outdoor Stations of the Cross. One woman would “Rest in the Spirit” at every station, with dramatic sighing and moaning. Pilgrims were forced to catch her as she fell to the ground. She managed to annoy us, including the priest leading the Stations. He finally ordered her, in the Name of Jesus, to get up and cease the behavior. She did not, proving that she was not truly Resting in thee Spirit at all, but yielding to her own disordered human spirit. The priest asked if anyone knew her, one woman raised her hand. He asked if she would stay with the woman, and he and the rest of us continued on with the Stations. She was obviously obsessed with the experience of the Extraordinary gifts. A few of my companions knew her, and exclaimed that she often does this to get attention. Obviously NOT a stable woman. She was not representative of most of those I knew and know in the CCR.

So how many CCR folks do you personally know - who supposedly speak in tongues and prophesy - who do intentionally seek these supposed gifts out?
 
Okay, ClayPots, so how many CCR folks do you personally know - who supposedly speak in tongues and prophesy - who did not intentionally seek these supposed gifts out?
I will answer from my personal experience. I sought the Holy Spirit and the promised power to be a witness. To me, this gave me power over addictive sin, the instant I prayed to be baptized in the Holy Spirit at a CCR prayer meeting. I was feeling powerless and the Holy Spirit gave me power, a tongues prayer language and faith to receive any of the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit as He wills.
 
Right. I mean… Seek to have an abundance of gifts!
This approach is problematic and counterproductive with Traditional Catholics who have been taught the opposite.
Seek to yield to the Holy spirit in every way possible. Go for it!
For Charismatics, this is another way of stating what you have said in your first line.But Traditional Catholics see a dichotomy between the two, and specifically believe that gifts should not be sought. It sounds much better to present it the way you have in the second sentence, because this statement reflects what both types believe.
 
I think you and Denise are having a semantics problem, among other problems.
Yes, I mentioned that HERE in post 146 where" I wrote, “We can get hung up on semantics because a certain word isn’t used to describe what exactly it is, but the idea is certainly present”.
Furthermore, Traditionalists prefer the Baltimore Catechism over the new Catechism, so if it appears there is a contradiction between the two, they will embrace the Baltimore. Since the Baltimore precedes the manifestation of the answer to the Holy Father’s prayer for the New Pentecost, it does not reflect any of the instruction to the faithful that occured since then.
I don’t know if that is true of all Traditionalists, but the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the official one.
One of the things I have learned on this thread is that Traditionlists seem to ascribe little, if any creedence to any writing or teaching of the Bishops or the Holy Fathers that does not come in the form of an encyclical. For that reason, it seems that the Apostolic Exhortation you are citing has no value in supporting your premise.
The Apostolic Exhortation (CHRISTIFIDELES LAICI) agrees with both Lumen Gentium and the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, which should give it more weight. It’s lower in formal authority, but higher than Ecclesiastical letters.
I don’t think this is the case, ClayPots. No one “must” respond to the gifts and graces of God. God calls all persons to be saved, and to become Holy, and most do not respond. God has given each person charism for the common good, and yet most people don’t use theirs. One can refuse the gifts of God. One can bury what God has given them in the ground, so that it produces no increase.
Read what I wrote again, and the three sources I gave Denise. I stated, “If the Holy Spirit wishes us to have a particular charism, whether it be teaching or prophecy, we must respond in some way.” That is the case. We will not experience (have) the charism if we dot respond by yielding, accepting, receiving, recognizing it. If we don’t respond, we do not receive/have the charism. You have to read my statement in the context of the conversation, which is expressed in this statement I previously wrote HERE, “Charisms, both ordinary and extraordinary don’t come to us without some action on our part. The Holy Spirit won’t violate our Free Will, the exercise of a charism requires our cooperation.”
 
There are instances as a Charismatic Catholic that I desire a certain gift or gifts for the common good such as:

If in a situation a miracle is needed, I desire or seek that gift;

If I am not certain what to pray for, I pray in tongues and as Scripture says, that allows the Holy Spirit to pray through me perfectly.

There is a time and a place to desire each of the nine power gifts.

I would also agree that seeking to operate in a power gift as a ministry can be dangerous or a prideful desire. Sometimes, one is led down that path but their demeanor and personality is most humble in my experience.
 
I seen this thread and I wonder am I a bad Catholic for being a Charismatic Catholic?
 
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