Differences of Opinion

[drpmjhess]

Sorry- I am not drinking that KOOL AID that says the world is not Satan’s. It sure as shineola is.

By “the world” of which Satan is prince do you mean raccoons and redwood trees and waterfalls, or do you mean Wall Street, Madison Avenue, etc.?

 

[Hellisreal]

By “the world” of which Satan is prince do you mean raccoons and redwood trees and waterfalls, or do you mean Wall Street, Madison Avenue, etc.?

Raccoons, redwood trees, and waterfalls have not a thing to do with this topic.

How old are you?

 

[drpmjhess]

Raccoons, redwood trees, and waterfalls have not a thing to do with this topic.

How old are you?

How old are you? (I don’t usually ask people’s age, but since you inquired…)

 

[Hellisreal]

How old are you? (I don’t usually ask people’s age, but since you inquired…)

Old enough to read.

What part of the bible is unclear here?

Again, I dont think CAF has enough cups for the KOOL AID being tossed out here.

 

[drpmjhess]

Old enough to read. What part of the bible is unclear here? Again, I dont think CAF has enough cups for the KOOL AID being tossed out here.

Anyone can spout scripture – that’s child’s play. The task of mature theology is (among other things) to interpret scripture in one’s contemporary context. I’m simply asking what you mean by “the world” of which you say Satan is the prince or lord. I’m not out of line asking you to clarify an obscure statement; it should not be a difficult task if you actually know how you understand and can articulate how you are using a given scriptural passage.

 

[Hellisreal]

Anyone can spout scripture – that’s child’s play. The task of mature theology is (among other things) to interpret scripture in one’s contemporary context. I’m simply asking what you mean by “the world” of which you say Satan is the prince or lord. I’m not out of line asking you to clarify an obscure statement; it should not be a difficult task if you actually know how you understand and can articulate how you are using a given scriptural passage.

why is Christ suddenly limited by time? Why MUST there be a contemporary context?

I guess, another problem is the exact opposite- a historical critical method.

And, so you know- I am not one that argues for a literal creation account- and do see flaws in the historical critical method.

However- I am not going to say any more than this.

I explained myself clearly in my post regarding Satans attempt to tempt Jesus.

Unless you feel I am very wrong in my view of that account, I am done.

 

[drpmjhess]

why is Christ suddenly limited by time? Why MUST there be a contemporary context? However- I am not going to say any more than this. I explained myself clearly in my post regarding Satans attempt to tempt Jesus. Unless you feel I am very wrong in my view of that account, I am done.

Sorry, but I’m only asking what you mean by “world,” which as a matter of fact you did not explain in post 99, and if you explained it elsewhere it is not obvious. Please specify a post number so that I can read it without bothering you. Otherwise, stop making assertions!

 

[Hellisreal]

Sorry, but I’m only asking what you mean by “world,” which as a matter of fact you did not explain in post 99, and if you explained it elsewhere it is not obvious. Please specify a post number so that I can read it without bothering you. Otherwise, stop making assertions!

What in fact, was my assertion again?

 

[jmcrae]

Anyone can spout scripture – that’s child’s play. The task of mature theology is (among other things) to interpret scripture in one’s contemporary context. I’m simply asking what you mean by “the world” of which you say Satan is the prince or lord. I’m not out of line asking you to clarify an obscure statement; it should not be a difficult task if you actually know how you understand and can articulate how you are using a given scriptural passage.

This is Christianity 101 - the phrase “the world,” as used in the New Testament represents the realm of Satan.

Have you never attended a beginners’ Bible study class, before?

 

[drpmjhess]

This is Christianity 101 - the phrase “the world,” as used in the New Testament represents the realm of Satan.
Have you never attended a beginners’ Bible study class, before?

Now, jmcrae, no need to get snarky. Asking me if I’ve attended a beginners’ bible class is dodging the question, and suggests that you are unwilling to answer it, even after some of your henchmen attacked wildleafblower on this point (incidentally, I don’t know wildleafblower).

I simply want to know how you understand “the realm of Satan.” Don’t just spout me some elementary Bible verse, as that is circular (the world = the realm of Satan = the world), and I’m sure you’re sophisticated enough to recognize that.

How are we in 2007 to understand “the realm of Satan”? For some people it means practically the entire created order. For others “the world” is all the troublesome aspects of modern society (pornography, marketing, politics). For yet others it is more specific areas of sin. I agree with wildleafblower if what this person is doing is denying that “Satan” controls the world or is “lord” over it. I ask you, simply and kindly, can you please tell me what you mean?

 

[silentdeb]

musing Now, I wasn’t raised Catholic (and at this point, I’m Catholic in my heart but not in fact - I haven’t received any of the Sacraments or ‘formally’ converted yet), so my perspective probably differs right there, but if you wouldn’t mind me responding to your post anyway? (since you don’t actually get the opportunity to object, here, I’ll just thank you in advance )

My view of Catholicism (and we’ll get to the subset of Catholics that populate CAF in a moment) is always ‘as opposed to my experience growing up Protestant’, and in comparison, I find Catholicism has a far richer tradition - and modern reality - of study, analysis, and questioning of spirituality and why they/we believe what we believe. For me, the current Pope is a magnificent illustration of that, and I’m thrilled to bits that my conversion has pretty much coincided with his pontificate.

As far as CAF itself … I haven’t shared your experience, dear, although there’s a good chance we’ve been moving in entirely different threads. I haven’t seen this problem of a conservative faction pouncing on the more progressive ones for daring to think differently - although, to be as fair as I can, I’m pretty conservative (so my view might be skewed quite differently than yours!)… and being a newbie to both the religion and CAF itself, I’m more likely to be asking questions than expressing views.

I think, from what I’ve read (in CAF, and elsewhere) that in a lot of ways, the cradle Catholic actually has a rough go of it sometimes… having not chosen as an adult to be Catholic, after a lot of study and hard thought, leaves some of you ill-equipped to reconcile your faith with the modern world - or, specifically, the non-Catholic world. I read what a struggle it is, and it makes me sad - it really does sound tough. We adult converts have a much easier go of it, I think! :hug3: I’ve had the benefit of having an online friendship with a fiercely conservative (much more conservative than I am, I daresay) man that converted when he was in his 50s, who - and I’m so fortunate for this! - has given me extensive background in his thoughts on feminism and so forth (the issues you brought up), so … when I see what sound like rants against feminism and so forth on CAF, I immediately think of his explanations, and … well, they make sense.

I think the point I’m doing a rotten job of making is that I’ve had someone get through to me on WHAT it is that conservative Catholics are objecting to, so I might see a different definition of the source of the objection than you.

WORDS and their interpretation seem to matter more in Catholicism than the Protestant variety of Christianity - a term like ‘feminism’ (I keep returning to that because hey, I’m a girl grin) is loaded with a lot more symbolism and backstory!

I’m rambling - I shouldn’t post this late at night. I’m sorry.

I’m trying to say that I feel for you, and you come across as an intelligent person, and I DO hear (and understand!) your plea. :hug3: I haven’t had the same experience as you, but I do hope you find a way to continue to publicly make us all think about our beliefs, because any good belief bears close scrutiny, and it’s great when we have the chance to be prodded into thinking!

Take care,
Deb

 

[jmcrae]

Now, jmcrae, no need to get snarky.

I am not being “snarky” - I just find it astonishing that someone who claims to have read the Bible would not know what is meant by the term “the world” when used in a Christian context.

I have travelled in many circles, from the most puritanical fundamentalists you can imagine, to Charismatic, to traditional Catholic, to middle-of-the-road Presbyterian, to liberal feminist, to gay, lesbian, and transgendered - and they all understood what was meant by “the world” - that is, “Satan’s realm.”

Obviously, it had different borders in each case, and each would most probably consider the others to be more worldly (that is, more beset with temptations) than themselves, but they all had the same basic concept - everyone was familiar with the writings of St. Paul, and with the Gospels, and they all shared the same basic vocabulary.

Asking me if I’ve attended a beginners’ bible class is dodging the question, and suggests that you are unwilling to answer it, even after some of your henchmen attacked wildleafblower on this point (incidentally, I don’t know wildleafblower).

They aren’t my henchmen. I haven’t nearly that kind of influence - would that I did.

Actually, I was trying to figure out where we are starting from.

If you have never attended a Bible class, then obviously, these terms would be unfamiliar to you, since they generally aren’t mentioned in sermons, or at the surface level of the practice of Christianity in its many forms - it’s only when you get into mid-week Bible studies that you really begin to encounter this kind of thing.

If you have been to a Bible study, and you were paying attention, then you have some other motive for asking, since you already know these basic definitions. (Perhaps you would like to re-define the term, to fit an agenda of your own?)

I simply want to know how you understand “the realm of Satan.” Don’t just spout me some elementary Bible verse, as that is circular (the world = the realm of Satan = the world), and I’m sure you’re sophisticated enough to recognize that.

Any good Examen shows us the realm of Satan, by showing us what we need to avoid, and what we need to confess in the Confessional. There are several good ones available - since I work with teenagers, here’s one that I frequently hand out - I am told that adults find it helpful, as well.

How are we in 2007 to understand “the realm of Satan”? For some people it means practically the entire created order. For others “the world” is all the troublesome aspects of modern society (pornography, marketing, politics). For yet others it is more specific areas of sin. I agree with wildleafblower if what this person is doing is denying that “Satan” controls the world or is “lord” over it. I ask you, simply and kindly, can you please tell me what you mean?

It means that we have two choices - to serve Christ and His Kingdom, or to serve Satan and the world. When we sin, we are in the service of Satan. When we simply neglect to do good, or when our good deeds have selfish, base motives, we are in the service of Satan. To serve anyone but Christ is to serve Satan, except when our service to others is for the purpose of serving Christ in them.

When we do good for Christ’s sake, we are in the service of Christ. Our goal is to be in the service of Christ at all times, and to have no dealings with Satan whatsoever - which means that we must let go of our selfishness, our ego, and our pride - that is, our own narrow little world - to become like the person in Galatians 5:22 and following - a person of wide horizons, with peace, love, joy, gentleness, self-control, and all the rest.

 

[Hellisreal]

Where is Spirit Meadow?

Hello Spirit Meadow, how are you today?

 

[drpmjhess]

Obviously, it had different borders in each case, and each would most probably consider the others to be more worldly (that is, more beset with temptations) than themselves, but they all had the same basic concept - everyone was familiar with the writings of St. Paul, and with the Gospels, and they all shared the same basic vocabulary.

Thank you.

 

[po18guy]

The task of mature theology is (among other things) to interpret scripture in one’s contemporary context.

PRIVATE INTERPRETATION ALERT
“Mature” and “contemporary” are radical buzzwords. This often seems to mean that you don’t want to start your own church, and you’d rather everyone else change theirs to suit your political beliefs. Of course, I’m sure that’s not the case here…

 

[po18guy]

I simply want to know how you understand “the realm of Satan.”

It’s the socierty of radical progressives that believe in nothing because they believe in everything - except those who disagree with them.

 

[wildleafblower]

Now, jmcrae, no need to get snarky. Asking me if I’ve attended a beginners’ bible class is dodging the question, and suggests that you are unwilling to answer it, even after some of your henchmen attacked wildleafblower on this point (incidentally, I don’t know wildleafblower).

Thank you, Petrus. . Yes, I think you know me because of this. “I AM the LIGHT of the WORLD.”

I love Jesus more than words could ever express

 

[TMC]

I would like to add a thought to the discussion of whether Satan rules “the world” without, if I may, engaging in the debate of the meaning of “the world”.

When protestant friends, especially the non-liturgical types like Baptists, ask me about Catholicism, one of the things I always bring up is the positive Catholic view of the world. I was raised, and catechised, to believe that the world was good. God created the Earth and all that is in it, and all of it is created good. The world can be USED for evil, but it is NOT evil, and cannot be because it was created by God. Some Christians believe that the physical world is evil, and must be rejected in all its particulars. This leads them to reject joyful things, like dancing and drinking. They think enjoying this life is wrong, because this life is bad. Catholics embrace life and love life. They recognize that Christ did the same. Throughout the Gospels he is at dinners and parties. He loved life, and so should we.

This world is not the realm of Satan. All of creation belongs to God. To believe otherwise starts to bump into Marcionism, and Gnosticism, and probably other -isms.

The world was made by God, and he made it as an abode, albeit a temporary one, for his children. To believe that in this life we are trapped within an evil existence, with our only duty to escape it safely, is to deny this core belief.

God intends that we enjoy this life, not that we reject it. Why else is life so sacred to Catholics? And if we follows God’s rules we will enjoy this life. I have heard a lot of evangelicals and fundamentalists assert that this world is the realm of Satan; that we live in a God-made trap that we must escape, but I don’t think that is a Catholic belief.

 

[drpmjhess]

Thank you, Petrus. . Yes, I think you know me because of this. “I AM the LIGHT of the WORLD.” I love Jesus more than words could ever express

Thanks, Wildleafblower. Isn’t the world a wonderful place? God even recognized it as intrinsically good in Genesis! I guess that makes me a “glass half full” Catholic.

Petrus

 

[wildleafblower]

God speaks to our soul. In the Old Testament God’s promise of a redeemer. The New Testament is the story of the coming of the Redeemer and of the Chruch He founded to carry out His work. Pope Benedict XV sounds an ardent note of appeal: “Our one desire for all the Church’s children is that, being saturated with the Bible, they may arrive at the all-surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ.” Such is truly the power of the Bible. In its pages the Prince of Peace reveals the law of grace that alone brings peace to the heart of man. Here, too, a loving Father speaks words that have power to illumine with the light of truth and to vitalize every spirit with the hope of peace and salvation.