Differences

[guanophore]

It is your opinion that this is unfair or inacurate, many would say it was quite charitable.

It is not charitable to call people names. You accused him of being ashamed of being Catholic, or being a liar. Neither is true. He removed the affiliation so that it would be clear to all that he is not speaking as a representative of the Catholic Church here on CAF.

It was meant as an invitation to look inside for answers of what's true, about himself.  I would expect the same from a brother Catholic if I speak in error.

Great.



Invite him, challenge him, do all that your faith calls you to do. But to accuse him of taking his affiliation off because he is a liar is not right. Clearly he is convinced that he can hold these heretical and heterodox positions and still be a Catholic in good standing. At least he is not trying to put that out to the public any more here on CAF.

I appreciate your concern here and if there was malice intended, then you would be correct, but there is none. Only a desire to lead our brother back to look for the truth.

He did us all a great service by removing his affiliation,and I think it was an act of integrity. He is willing to avoid putting himself out as something that misrepresents the One Faith. I appreciate it a great deal, and I think he ought to be commended for removing this grave public scandal.

If you feel it necessary to tell him he was lying (or is now) or that he must be ashamed of his faith, maybe it should be done as PM. He has chosen not to represent himself publicly as Catholic,and I think this decision should be respected.

 

[CMatt25]

I did cut him slack. I always do, ai an attempt to lead him to reasonable thinking. Cherry picking scripture and CCC statements to prove verify what one believes is dangerous, for the one who does it; but more importantly the ones who are led astray by it.

So it is our duty to correct and at times chastise those who teach error. It doesn’t make it any less heretical if I remove my affiliation. Untruth is always untruth. I am sorry if I can’t “award points” for listening to his conscience and removing his affiliation.

We must instruct and invite, I believe that is exactly what I have done, every time we have talked.

I like many of your comments on Matt’s orriginal post. I appreciate your comments to me, and they are duly noted; both the warnings and compliments.

Now let’s get back to the subject, truth!!! Sorry, I couldn’t resist!

Good morning Lapey. Btw way since it has been awhile, not sure I have congratulated you on the fulfilment of your discernment and ascension to the Catholic diaconate. God bless you in your work.

But again you speak of a brother Catholic, the dangers of others being led astray. Yet as Guan so astutely pointed out that is exactly why I no longer identify as a brother Catholic. So as not to lead astray. So if only you and others would simply refrain from discussing and referring to any past affiliation, then no one would be at risk of being led astray by me any more than they would by any other non Catholic affliated person here. I understand you like to bring up Church teaching in regard to who is Catholic. But we are not in the Church. We are on a private internet forum. Different rules apply here than in the Church. And by constantly bringing up the past, it is you who might cause confusion. So there is no need for you to do that. Again God bless and peace.

 

[guanophore]

In Romans 14 the Apostle Paul when speaking about disputes and not judging, even said regarding which day to observe, to let each be convinced in their own minds.

He added to that the principle that everything that is done should be done to honor the Lord. It does not honor Him to depart from the instruction He gave to the Apostles, or to disobey those whom He placed in authority over us.

 Earlier you spoke of "rejected".  Guan, perhaps some "reject" the Catholic faith  because they became pursuaded and believe the Catholic Church was in err, or strayed.  And they believe Christ may have to reform in order to keep His promise about the gates.

Yes, it is clear that the Reformers believe the “Church” had strayed and needed reform.

It is also clear that Christ does have to reforme in order to keep His promises.

However, Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. He did not commit one Truth in doctrine to the Church 1500 years ago, then reverse Himself during the Reformation. The doctrines don’t need any “reform”. The people and practices needed reform.

If one cannot separate the Church from the fallible men who are members of her, then one is suffering from a deficient understanding of Church.

Just as you have embraced by faith, so may others their faith.  I hope that helps you understand others as I understand you.  God bless.

Most of our separated brethren place their faith in heresies because they don’t know any better. They are born into ecclesial communities that are descended from heretics centuries ago, and they know so little about the faith, they are easily pursuaded that it is the 'Catholic Church that has fallen away from the Apostolic Teaching. If this is true, then Jesus failed to keep His promise to lead his Church “into all truth”.

 

[CMatt25]

It is not charitable to call people names. You accused him of being ashamed of being Catholic, or being a liar. Neither is true. He removed the affiliation so that it would be clear to all that he is not speaking as a representative of the Catholic Church here on CAF.

Great.



Invite him, challenge him, do all that your faith calls you to do. But to accuse him of taking his affiliation off because he is a liar is not right. Clearly he is convinced that he can hold these heretical and heterodox positions and still be a Catholic in good standing. At least he is not trying to put that out to the public any more here on CAF.

He did us all a great service by removing his affiliation,and I think it was an act of integrity. He is willing to avoid putting himself out as something that misrepresents the One Faith. I appreciate it a great deal, and I think he ought to be commended for removing this grave public scandal.

If you feel it necessary to tell him he was lying (or is now) or that he must be ashamed of his faith, maybe it should be done as PM. He has chosen not to represent himself publicly as Catholic,and I think this decision should be respected.

Thank you Guan. But I forgave Lapey for presuming I might be a liar the moment I saw it.

 

[CMatt25]

He added to that the principle that everything that is done should be done to honor the Lord. It does not honor Him to depart from the instruction He gave to the Apostles, or to disobey those whom He placed in authority over us.

Yes, it is clear that the Reformers believe the “Church” had strayed and needed reform.

It is also clear that Christ does have to reforme in order to keep His promises.

However, Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. He did not commit one Truth in doctrine to the Church 1500 years ago, then reverse Himself during the Reformation. The doctrines don’t need any “reform”. The people and practices needed reform.

If one cannot separate the Church from the fallible men who are members of her, then one is suffering from a deficient understanding of Church.

Most of our separated brethren place their faith in heresies because they don’t know any better. They are born into ecclesial communities that are descended from heretics centuries ago, and they know so little about the faith, they are easily pursuaded that it is the 'Catholic Church that has fallen away from the Apostolic Teaching. If this is true, then Jesus failed to keep His promise to lead his Church “into all truth”.

Guan, I’m not going to presume non Catholic believers do not honor the Lord. Nor who born into as you call them, “ecclesial communities”, have not studied. But of course Jesus is the same and none of this means He failed. Or that one can not separate from fallible men nor understand your faith. I’m not certain any non Catholic affiliated believers declare infallibilty. I know I don’t. But if one believes or questions whether doctrine as interpreted by men in the Catholic Church was in err or the men strayed at some point, then that is their faith. Not that Jesus failed but perhaps men. We were taught afterall to know them by their fruits.

 

[Esdra]

One cannot “force” one’s conscience. However, one can realize that a properly formed conscience will be in complete accord with what God has revealed to be true through the Church. And, although one cannot force one’s conscience, one can make an act of the will to embrace what has been revealed, and one’s conscience will follow suit. As Thomas said “Oh Lord, help my unbelief!”.

Just a quick note:

Thomas never said, according to the NT “Help my unbelief”.

14 And when he came to his disciples, he saw a great multitude about them, and the scribes questioning with them.
15 And straightway all the people, when they beheld him, were greatly amazed, and running to him saluted him.
16 And he asked the scribes, What question ye with them?
17 And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;
18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

The thing with Thomas went like that:

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[Esdra]

Hi CMatt,

it’s always astonishing to read your posts. Especially these ones here.

As I have the one or other occasion pointed out you are speaking and thinking the same as my dad does .(He is 60+).
And he is also still a Catholic - and even goes to mass nearly every Sunday.

So my question: How old are you? You don’t need to write the exactly age if you don’t want to. 50+ i.e. would be enough for me.
And when did you start thinking like this? (“Heretical thinking”.) Because my dad told me he has been a devout and faithful Catholic for most of his life, but got so disappointed when he saw that the RCC after Vaticanum II “rejected” (Lack of other Word. here. I’d like another one but don’t know it in English) so many eucumenical parts in it.
And then he became “more and more heretic”. I only got to know that when I started (shortly after becoming a reborn Christian) to try to “evangelize” him (like nearly everyone I met at that time! ) - and realised that he already knows a lot about Protestant doctrine. - And that he in fact is more a Lutheran than a Catholic.

 

[imbroglio]

I did cut him slack. I always do, ai an attempt to lead him to reasonable thinking. Cherry picking scripture and CCC statements to prove verify what one believes is dangerous, for the one who does it; but more importantly the ones who are led astray by it.

So it is our duty to correct and at times chastise those who teach error. It doesn’t make it any less heretical if I remove my affiliation. Untruth is always untruth. I am sorry if I can’t “award points” for listening to his conscience and removing his affiliation.

We must instruct and invite, I believe that is exactly what I have done, every time we have talked.

I like many of your comments on Matt’s orriginal post. I appreciate your comments to me, and they are duly noted; both the warnings and compliments.

Now let’s get back to the subject, truth!!! Sorry, I couldn’t resist!

It is our duty to instruct, but it should be done in private. I don’t think criticizing someone on a public form is what Jesus had in mind.

 

[Lapey]

It is our duty to instruct, but it should be done in private. I don’t think criticizing someone on a public form is what Jesus had in mind.

Didn’t think it was criticism, only correction and direction. Jesus taught truth, at times it convicted people in public. He always taught truth.

 

[Lapey]

It is not charitable to call people names. You accused him of being ashamed of being Catholic, or being a liar. Neither is true. He removed the affiliation so that it would be clear to all that he is not speaking as a representative of the Catholic Church here on CAF.

Great.



Invite him, challenge him, do all that your faith calls you to do. But to accuse him of taking his affiliation off because he is a liar is not right. Clearly he is convinced that he can hold these heretical and heterodox positions and still be a Catholic in good standing. At least he is not trying to put that out to the public any more here on CAF.

He did us all a great service by removing his affiliation,and I think it was an act of integrity. He is willing to avoid putting himself out as something that misrepresents the One Faith. I appreciate it a great deal, and I think he ought to be commended for removing this grave public scandal.

If you feel it necessary to tell him he was lying (or is now) or that he must be ashamed of his faith, maybe it should be done as PM. He has chosen not to represent himself publicly as Catholic,and I think this decision should be respected.

Ok, I’ll concede that it was best to remove. However, it would be much more comendable for us to all challenge him to look for the truth, outside of our own being.

 

[Lapey]

Good morning Lapey. Btw way since it has been awhile, not sure I have congratulated you on the fulfilment of your discernment and ascension to the Catholic diaconate. God bless you in your work.

But again you speak of a brother Catholic, the dangers of others being led astray. Yet as Guan so astutely pointed out that is exactly why I no longer identify as a brother Catholic. So as not to lead astray. So if only you and others would simply refrain from discussing and referring to any past affiliation, then no one would be at risk of being led astray by me any more than they would by any other non Catholic affliated person here. I understand you like to bring up Church teaching in regard to who is Catholic. But we are not in the Church. We are on a private internet forum. Different rules apply here than in the Church. And by constantly bringing up the past, it is you who might cause confusion. So there is no need for you to do that. Again God bless and peace.

Thanks for the congrats Matt!!! I appreciate it. I also appreciate the fact that you said you didn’t need to be defended form me and my name calling. I know from our past discussions you knew and understood exactly where I was going, and would not be offended. One this I will say about you, you are a person of great patience and understanding, and I appreciate that. Gotta get, ttyl.

 

[guanophore]

Guan, I'm not going to presume non Catholic believers do not honor the Lord.

Nor do I. Most of my faithful separated brethren do a better job of honoring the Lord than the majority of Catholics next to me in the pew, and especially those who don’t frequent the pew.

However, to the extent that we depart from His commandments, we dishonor Him, whether we do it knowingly, or unknowingly.

Nor who born into as you call them, “ecclesial communities”, have not studied.

I am not sure what you are trying to say, here, but there are many evangelicals that have never crossed paths with the Catholic Church, and have never heard of the Early Fathers, much less done any reading in historical theology. I used to be one of them myself, and it was the study of these subjects, in a Protestant Seminary, that let me to realize that the Church founded by Christ is Catholic.

But of course Jesus is the same and none of this means He failed. Or that one can not separate from fallible men nor understand your faith.

Yes, it would. If Jesus is unable to communicate His will and intentions to people, and they are let to flounder in their limited, fallible minds, then He did not do what He promised. What happened to the powerful Jesus we see in the book of Revelation, who is so able to correct His church? How did He lose all that power and authority?

I’m not certain any non Catholic affiliated believers declare infallibilty. I know I don’t.

I don’t know of any either. Infallibiity was a gift that was given to Christ to His fledgling Church. Those who separate from that Church are not protected by it.

But if one believes or questions whether doctrine as interpreted by men in the Catholic Church was in err or the men strayed at some point, then that is their faith.

Actually, it sounds more like that is their doubt, CMatt. What you are alleging is that the powerful Jesus who was ready, able,and willing to be the Head of His Body when the book of Revelation was written somehow lost his power and authority. He was no longer able to reach into the minds and hearts of fallible men to make His will known.

Besids, men straying at some point does not damage the Truth. The fact that Judas betrayed Christ does not invalidate all that Christ taught. Truth is not defined by those who depart from it.

Not that Jesus failed but perhaps men. We were taught afterall to know them by their fruits.

Men have always failed. Somehow, the HS was able to use those fallible men to produce infallble results, such as the canon of scripture. Somehow the HS was able to work through those fallible men to formulate the doctrines of the faith, and fight heresies. In you theory, the weakness of men is stronger than the power of God. Your theory suggests that the failures or disobedience of certain persons have prevented Jesus from being the Head of His Church, and disabled Him from guiding the Church into “all Truth”.

 

[guanophore]

Just a quick note:

Thomas never said, according to the NT “Help my unbelief”.

The thing with Thomas went like that:

Thaks Esdra. Obviously I am conflating my doubters.

 

[guanophore]

Didn’t think it was criticism, only correction and direction. Jesus taught truth, at times it convicted people in public. He always taught truth.

No one is suggesting you should not teach the Truth, or provide correction and direction. I am just asking you to put the past aside, and accept CMatt’s solution of no longer publicly putting himself forth as Catholic on these threads. Would you accuse any other Protestant of being ashamed of their faith, or lying about it? It just seems like you have some axe to grind. He has walked away from creating scandal. Why throw rocks at his backside?

Ok, I’ll concede that it was best to remove. However, it would be much more comendable for us to all challenge him to look for the truth, outside of our own being.

Yes, we must all strive for this, and in his case, we should have grave concern for our brother and double our prayer efforts. As far as I can tell from reading his posts, he has more faith in the shotrcomings of man than he does the power of God. Such a position could have grave eternal consequences.

 

[CMatt25]

Thanks for the congrats Matt!!! I appreciate it. I also appreciate the fact that you said you didn’t need to be defended form me and my name calling. I know from our past discussions you knew and understood exactly where I was going, and would not be offended. One this I will say about you, you are a person of great patience and understanding, and I appreciate that. Gotta get, ttyl.

Well Lapey outside the forum I am known as a rather patient and understanding person. Or so I’ve been told. Though I confess I know I am not always perfect in those regards neither there nor here. But I truly appreciate you recognizing I do sincerely try. It means a lot to me to know that these things about me come across thru cyberspace as well. Have a great day.

 

[CMatt25]

I am not sure what you are trying to say, here, but there are many evangelicals that have never crossed paths with the Catholic Church, and have never heard of the Early Fathers, much less done any reading in historical theology. I used to be one of them myself, and it was the study of these subjects, in a Protestant Seminary, that let me to realize that the Church founded by Christ is Catholic.

Yes, it would. If Jesus is unable to communicate His will and intentions to people, and they are let to flounder in their limited, fallible minds, then He did not do what He promised. What happened to the powerful Jesus we see in the book of Revelation, who is so able to correct His church? How did He lose all that power and authority?

Actually, it sounds more like that is their doubt, CMatt. What you are alleging is that the powerful Jesus who was ready, able,and willing to be the Head of His Body when the book of Revelation was written somehow lost his power and authority. He was no longer able to reach into the minds and hearts of fallible men to make His will known.

Somehow the HS was able to work through those fallible men to formulate the doctrines of the faith, and fight heresies.

Guan when discussing the “most” in as you describe “ecclesial communities”, you said they know little about the faith and I simply meant I’m not going assume that’s the case about most. That’s all I meant.

Nothing happened to Jesus, Guan. The Holy Spirit still guides us. As you said in faith.

 

[CMatt25]

Hi CMatt,

it’s always astonishing to read your posts. Especially these ones here.

As I have the one or other occasion pointed out you are speaking and thinking the same as my dad does .(He is 60+).
And he is also still a Catholic - and even goes to mass nearly every Sunday.

So my question: How old are you? You don’t need to write the exactly age if you don’t want to. 50+ i.e. would be enough for me.
And when did you start thinking like this? (“Heretical thinking”.) Because my dad told me he has been a devout and faithful Catholic for most of his life, but got so disappointed when he saw that the RCC after Vaticanum II “rejected” (Lack of other Word. here. I’d like another one but don’t know it in English) so many eucumenical parts in it.
And then he became “more and more heretic”. I only got to know that when I started (shortly after becoming a reborn Christian) to try to “evangelize” him (like nearly everyone I met at that time! ) - and realised that he already knows a lot about Protestant doctrine. - And that he in fact is more a Lutheran than a Catholic.

Hi Esdra, well in strictly chronological terms it appears I’m a decade or so a bit younger than your dad. 50 barely + but I’ve been told I appear a little younger and I know my mind doesn’t quite feel it. So I like to @ least tell myself I am a young barely 50+

I was baptized at 6 wks and confirmed at age 10. So lets see. Vat 2 ran something like from 1962 - 65, close to 50 yrs ago. So yes I am a product of Vat 2 and as you surmise I am rather quite ecumenical. And I try not to be too judgmental. I just have always been that way though. That’s just who I am.

My family has always been all over the place on the spectrum of Catholicism though. I have Catholic family who might fit into the CAF harder line better. Well at last better than I. And others perhaps even less so. But I thank my dear Catholic mother, God rest her soul, for instilling into me my ecumenical spirit. I like to think I know things about a variety of faiths. My grandfather on my father’s side was Lutheran though he passed before I was able to know him.

So running into a priest resisting Vat 2 might have been the start of my “heretical ways” and like your dad have become more and more so.

Social justice issues of the poor, the sick, well you know those Christ spoke of in Matt 25 and other places, and what I perceive to be the US Catholic Church’s growing venture into our Republican Party’s politics, which I believe is detrimental to the poor and the sick for instance, also has taken its toll on me.

Oh well. I hope this helped. God bless you and your dad and peace be with you both my friend.

 

[CMatt25]

Hi again Esdra, I was just thinking about your post. And while I think I mentioned this on another thread somewhere, you mentioned ecumenical. I grew up and have lived over 75% of my yrs in a small I’d say rather conservative town in what we here in the ststes call the “midwest”. As many such towns here are. And yet I can recall the great relationship my parish priest and the Presbyterian minister maintained with each other. And a ministerial assocation consisting of the Catholic priest and various Protestant pastors. All meeting over coffee ecumenically despite their differences. And having known a number of them (It was a small town and everyone knew everyone it seemed) I doubt anyone was calling the other a heretic. Despite any differences, they embraced the unity together they collectively had for Christ. So yes that’s where I come from.

 

[Esdra]

Hi again Esdra, I was just thinking about your post. And while I think I mentioned this on another thread somewhere, you mentioned ecumenical. I grew up and have lived over 75% of my yrs in a small I’d say rather conservative town in what we here in the ststes call the “midwest”. As many such towns here are. And yet I can recall the great relationship my parish priest and the Presbyterian minister maintained with each other. And a ministerial assocation consisting of the Catholic priest and various Protestant pastors. All meeting over coffee ecumenically despite their differences. And having known a number of them (It was a small town and everyone knew everyone it seemed) I doubt anyone was calling the other a heretic. Despite any differences, they embraced the unity together they collectively had for Christ. So yes that’s where I come from.

Hi CMatt,

I’ve just told my dad that you were very similar thinking than he was. And translated your last two posts here for him into German, as he can’t speak English.
And he said, “give my regards to CMatt” and “that denominations (or Churches) nowadays are not important anymore.”

Very interesting to read. Thank you for sharing. Even your story why you became “heretical” sounds quite similar to my dad’s.

Best wishes and God’s blessing to you and yours,

 

[CMatt25]

Hi CMatt,

I’ve just told my dad that you were very similar thinking than he was. And translated your last two posts here for him into German, as he can’t speak English.
And he said, “give my regards to CMatt” and “that denominations (or Churches) nowadays are not important anymore.”

Very interesting to read. Thank you for sharing. Even your story why you became “heretical” sounds quite similar to my dad’s.

Best wishes and God’s blessing to you and yours,

Esdra, well I can’t speak German so you’ll have to interpret again. But give my regards to your dad as well. It sounds like he raised a good son. Cherish your time with him always. All the best to you and yours as well.