Differences

[guanophore]

Guan when discussing the “most” in as you describe “ecclesial communities”, you said they know little about the faith and I simply meant I’m not going assume that’s the case about most. That’s all I meant.

Perhaps I am not expressing myself well. There are many fundamentalist and evangelical Christians who are very educated in the truncated degree of the Gospel they have received (bible based). They know their scriptures better than most Catholics. Some of them have been given outright lies to believe about Catholic faith. Some just don’t learn anytihng about Catholicism. When I was part of a United Methodist community for six years, I don’t remember ever hearing anything about Catholics, or Catholic faith. That was one reason I was there.

Even most American Catholics are poorly catechized. I did not know a lot of things about the faith until I came to CAF a few years ago. Many Catholics have the impression they are “done” with Catechism when they get confirmed, and make no effort seek to learn more about their faith after that.

Nothing happened to Jesus, Guan. The Holy Spirit still guides us. As you said in faith.

You can’t have it both ways, Matt. Either He fell down on the job, or He kept His promises. If He has been unable to make His Church understand the Truth He revealed to them, then He has become weak, or disinterested.

According to your theory, the shortcomings of man are stronger than His ability to reveal His Truth, so something must have happened to HIm. He sure appeared powerful and in control when the letters to the Churches were given in Revelation. Maybe he got the flu?

 

[CMatt25]

Perhaps I am not expressing myself well. There are many fundamentalist and evangelical Christians who are very educated in the truncated degree of the Gospel they have received (bible based). They know their scriptures better than most Catholics. Some of them have been given outright lies to believe about Catholic faith. Some just don’t learn anytihng about Catholicism. When I was part of a United Methodist community for six years, I don’t remember ever hearing anything about Catholics, or Catholic faith. That was one reason I was there.

Even most American Catholics are poorly catechized. I did not know a lot of things about the faith until I came to CAF a few years ago. Many Catholics have the impression they are “done” with Catechism when they get confirmed, and make no effort seek to learn more about their faith after that.

You can’t have it both ways, Matt. Either He fell down on the job, or He kept His promises. If He has been unable to make His Church understand the Truth He revealed to them, then He has become weak, or disinterested.

According to your theory, the shortcomings of man are stronger than His ability to reveal His Truth, so something must have happened to HIm. He sure appeared powerful and in control when the letters to the Churches were given in Revelation. Maybe he got the flu?

No Guan you are showing a lot of patience in expressing yourself. Some might not learn about Catholics. I just wasn’t prepared to say most don’t.

I don’t know Guan how many American Catholics feel done with catechism at Confirmation. I know that was not the case for me because at age 10 I had not a whole lot of true understanding until I became older.

Guan I think you might be misunderstanding. Forget me personally for a moment if you can. I find it hard to think many Christians in general even with differences, believe Jesus has become disinterested or came down wih the flu. There might be those who believe in reform for instance who would say by reforming to keep His Church on track, it is exactly a way Jesus is keeping His interest.

Peace

 

[guanophore]

I find it hard to think many Christians in general even with differences, believe Jesus has become disinterested or came down wih the flu. There might be those who believe in reform for instance who would say by reforming to keep His Church on track, it is exactly a way Jesus is keeping His interest.

Peace

I agree, Jesus did reform His Church to keep it on track. However, people are always in need of reform. The doctrine given by Christ to His apostles has never needed Reform.

Your assertion that we cannot know the Truth because we perceive through fallen human senses and are imperfect means that our imperfections are stronger than the power of God. It means that you don’t beleive that God is able to divinely reveeal the Truth to His church, and supernaturally preserve His Word where He placed it within the Church. Your theory requires that the shortcomings of humans overpower the omniptence of God.

 

[CMatt25]

Your assertion that we cannot know the Truth because we perceive through fallen human senses and are imperfect means that our imperfections are stronger than the power of God. It means that you don’t beleive that God is able to divinely reveeal the Truth to His church, and supernaturally preserve His Word where He placed it within the Church. Your theory requires that the shortcomings of humans overpower the omniptence of God.

Guan, I honestly believe the reality of it is we simply do not define “know” the same. And I believe God’s omnipotence shall be in tact, despite differences among us here on earth, by whoever has in the end whatever the essentials of faith are to the Truth. God bless you Guan on your journey. And peace.

 

[guanophore]

Guan, I honestly believe the reality of it is we simply do not define “know” the same.

You know, I don’t think that is the problem. I think we probably have more agreement on that point than not. I think the reality is that I take Jesus at His word, and that you simply do not believe the same.

And I believe God’s omnipotence shall be in tact, despite differences among us here on earth, by whoever has in the end whatever the essentials of faith are to the Truth. God bless you Guan on your journey. And peace.

If God’s omnipotence is truly intact, then there are no failures on the part of man that can disable His ability to make us perceive what He has decided to reveal. That means that your theory that the Truth cannot be fully known by us does not hold any water. That in fact, the powerful Jesus seen in the book of Revelation is just as capable of directing, guiding, and revealing Truth to His Church as He was 2000 years ago. That the hardheadedness and shortcomings of mankind are as chaff in the wind in the face of His omnipotent ability to make us to know His will.

Therefore, He does not have the flu, nor has He become weak. He has, on the contrary, fuflilled His promised to lead the Church into “all Truth”.

 

[CMatt25]

Guan if your faith is the Catholic Church holds all revealed truth, then I can see why you believe you know and know what faith holds water. It is your faith. We seem to be going in circles. You seem to use the word “know” in place of faith and belief. Again peace.

 

[guanophore]

Guan if your faith is the Catholic Church holds all revealed truth, then I can see why you believe you know and know what faith holds water.

I think if you re-read what you wrote here, you will see why it makes no sense.

It is your faith. We seem to be going in circles. You seem to use the word “know” in place of faith and belief. Again peace.

No, CMatt. I am aware that the historical reality of Christ exists apart from my personal faith and beliefs. I am aware that the whole of Christendom up until the Reformation believed that Jesus had fulfilled his promise to His One Body, the Church, to lead her into “all Truth”.

Why do you suppose the Apostle gave this instruction to the bishop?

1 Tim 1:3

I urge you, as I did when I was on my way to Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine,

Why was it so important that people not teach any “different doctrine?”

 

[CMatt25]

No, CMatt. I am aware that the historical reality of Christ exists apart from my personal faith and beliefs. I am aware that the whole of Christendom up until the Reformation believed that Jesus had fulfilled his promise to His One Body, the Church, to lead her into “all Truth”.

Why do you suppose the Apostle gave this instruction to the bishop?

1 Tim 1:3

I urge you, as I did when I was on my way to Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine,

Why was it so important that people not teach any “different doctrine?”

Yes many accept that Christ existed. But perhaps some just came to believe differently than you about the doctrine.

 

[guanophore]

Yes many accept that Christ existed. But perhaps some just came to believe differently than you about the doctrine.

Indeed, many did come to believe differently about the doctrine. The early church fathers called them heretics and schismatics.

You did not answer my question, CMatt. Why did the Apostle instruct the bishop to ensrure that no different doctrine was taught?

 

[CMatt25]

Indeed, many did come to believe differently about the doctrine. The early church fathers called them heretics and schismatics.

You did not answer my question, CMatt. Why did the Apostle instruct the bishop to ensrure that no different doctrine was taught?

Guan, the faith question is not so much whether there is a doctrine or truth to be taught but rather what it is that should be taught. And that is where faith enters. You must place faith in the ECFs and in how the Catholic Church interprets their writings to arrive at your beliefs. I have however seen here on our non Catholic forum a Protestant argument made for even a different interpretation of, for instance, Augustine’s writings in regard to the physical Real Presence. So see once again we are back to the beginning with differences and interpretations. And in the end what it comes down to is faith.

 

[Lapey]

Guan, the faith question is not so much whether there is a doctrine or truth to be taught but rather what it is that should be taught. And that is where faith enters. You must place faith in the ECFs and in how the Catholic Church interprets their writings to arrive at your beliefs. I have however seen here on our non Catholic forum a Protestant argument made for even a different interpretation of, for instance, Augustine’s writings in regard to the physical Real Presence. So see once again we are back to the beginning with differences and interpretations. And in the end what it comes down to is faith.

Good afternoon Matt,

Well if this is your veiw, may i ask you then, where does authority play in one’s faith, or for that matter does it?

sorry, i’ve been tied up in meetings for several days. I have faith that I hate meetingts!!!

 

[CMatt25]

Good afternoon Matt,

Well if this is your veiw, may i ask you then, where does authority play in one’s faith, or for that matter does it?

sorry, i’ve been tied up in meetings for several days. I have faith that I hate meetingts!!!

Good afternoon Lapey. Authority comes I believe from God. In my belief by His Holy Spirit desending upon us in faith as we humans search the Scriptures in prayer, and as we listen to His Spirit within our consciences. Deep within which is our most secret core and sanctuary where we are alone with God. (CCC 1776)

None of us were eyewitnesses, walking instead by faith and not by sight. And by their fruits we shall know them.

And I was just reminded on another thread of 1Cor 13. Where Scripture tells us love is more important than faith. And as the poster who reminded me, I believe that to mean in the end, love will trump faith differences.

Peace to you. And while I doubt there is much rest for a deacon from meetings, may you find at least some rest this weekend. God bless.

 

[CMatt25]

Lapey, allow me just to add a thought. See I don’t understand why I need authority to interpret 1Cor 13 which ends with, “So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” (NAB)
It is so simple for me to read. While we might say there are differences among faiths, clearly love is greater than faith. So despite any differences among faiths, this provides me peace. I hope that helps.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“clearly love is greater than faith”

I must process this a bit CMatt25. Interesting thought though I wondering how much one must coincide with the other to actually exist in regards to faith.

One can definatly love and have little religious faith. I’m thinking Eric Fromm now. Or be a loving person and not one iota of faith in God as Christians know God.

Something to ponder a bit I suppose

 

[CMatt25]

“clearly love is greater than faith”

I must process this a bit CMatt25. Interesting thought though I wondering how much one must coincide with the other to actually exist in regards to faith.

One can definatly love and have little religious faith. I’m thinking Eric Fromm now. Or be a loving person and not one iota of faith in God as Christians know God.

Something to ponder a bit I suppose

Gary, maybe love is what makes one’s lifelong walk a process.

 

[guanophore]

Guan, the faith question is not so much whether there is a doctrine or truth to be taught but rather what it is that should be taught.

I agree entirely. However, what “should” be taugtht is not a matter of our faith. What should be taught is a matter of divine revelation. The Source of what is taught is high above and beyond our individual faith expereinces.

The Truth from heaven was revealed through Christ to His Church. He taught this to his Apostles, and they to their successors until the present day. This Truth must be taught (and no "different doctrine’ regardless of whether anyone hearing it believes it, or not. In fact, the book of Acts makes it clear that whole communties rejected the Truth.

that is where faith enters. You must place faith in the ECFs and in how the Catholic Church interprets their writings to arrive at your beliefs.

Not so much. I must trust in God, primarily, that He made good on His promises to preserve His Word where He placed it. If I have this trust in His immutable Word, then I will indeed see the Truth He has preserved in the ECF and the Teaching of the Church.

It seems to me that you have more faith in the fallibiliy of men than the power of God. You say I have to trust the ECF and the Magesterium (which I do) and I say, I only trust them because I trust God to keep His promises.

I have however seen here on our non Catholic forum a Protestant argument made for even a different interpretation of, for instance, Augustine's writings in regard to the physical Real Presence.

There are as many different interpretations as there are belly buttons. That is why the Apostle instructed that no DIFFERENT DOCTRINE is to be taught.

So see once again we are back to the beginning with differences and interpretations.

You are, CMatt. Those of us that believe that God’s Word is immutable, and that He keeps his promises, need not go in such circles.

And in the end what it comes down to is faith.

No, CMatt. What it comes down to is whether one chooses to reject the promises of Christ to preserve His Church in “all Truth”. If you reject that promise, then it all comes down to every persons’ personal opinion. This frame of reference is the cause of the splintering fragmentation of the Body of Christ.

 

[guanophore]

Well if this is your veiw, may i ask you then, where does authority play in one’s faith, or for that matter does it?

I KNOW! It is in the belly button. :yup:

Everyone who has one can be their own authority.

Authority is also a matter of faith. One has to have sufficient faith in one’s belly button…

 

[benidict]

I KNOW! It is in the belly button. :yup:

Everyone who has one can be their own authority.

Authority is also a matter of faith. One has to have sufficient faith in one’s belly button…

All praise the Belly Button! Brother Guanophore, even though I am currently in Purgatory, you make me laugh! Peace and Grace to you

 

[guanophore]

All praise the Belly Button! Brother Guanophore, even though I am currently in Purgatory, you make me laugh! Peace and Grace to you

My prayers are with you there in the heat. May your soul be purified as with a refiners fire, and all the dross removed, that you may see Him face to face when That Day arrives.

 

[CMatt25]

My prayers are with you there in the heat. May your soul be purified as with a refiners fire, and all the dross removed, that you may see Him face to face when That Day arrives.

And I pray, despite any differences we may have on this earth. that all who seek the truth along their life journeys of faith, shall in the end when we will truly know, bask in the presence of the Truth eternally forever and ever. Amen.