Different from GIRM

[Kanda]

I am a catechist and had a meeting with the DRE for lesson planning. I am working with children who are 2nd-4th grade, but in their first year of Catholic education.

There are a few things we do at our parish that is different from others and agains the GIRM. I have not had time to discuss it with my priest yet, but thought I’d ask the DRE. One of the first lessons for these kids is about the structure of the liturgy, and I assume they will have these questions too.

First, we do not kneel during the consecration. Few even bow. The DRE said that the bishop does not require kneeling in our diocese.

Second, the entire congregation joins in with the priest singing “Through Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor are yours, Almighty Father. Forever and ever, amen” I mentioned to the DRE that this isn’t done at other parishes even within our diocese. She said that priests have “pastoral freedom” to make decsisions for their parish.

So, should I accept this and continue on, or do you think these are issues I should be concerned about?

 

[Ignatius2000]

As a general rule, if a liturgical practice is contrary to what is outlined in The General Instruction of the Roman Missal, then the practice should be stopped.

There is no such thing as “pastoral freedom,” Catholic liturgy is property of the Church as a whole, no one individual other than the Pope (even that could be debated) has the power/right/authority to change anything in the liturgy.

The Eucharistic Prayer is proper to the priest alone, with exception for the responses, see:
Chapter IV 147. Then the priest begins the Eucharistic Prayer. In accordance with the rubrics (cf. below, no. 365), he selects a Eucharistic Prayer from those found in the Roman Missal or approved by the Apostolic See. The Eucharistic Prayer demands, by its very nature, that the priest say it in virtue of his ordination. The people, for their part, should associate themselves with the priest in faith and in silence, as well as through their parts as prescribed in the course of the Eucharistic Prayer: namely the responses in the Preface dialogue, the Sanctus, the acclamation after the consecration, the acclamatory Amen after the final doxology, as well as other acclamations approved by the Conference of Bishops and recognized by the Holy See.

It isn’t difficult to follow liturgical guidelines–say the black, do the red, and leave your “personal pastoral touches” in the narthex.

 

[verdigirl]

Your diocese/archdiocese should have an office of liturgy. I would get in touch with them and ask them for a copy of any diocese-specific adaptations to the GIRM that they might have. Then I would compare notes with the DRE and the pastor, separately. Tell them that your end result with these kids is to have them feel comfortable to celebrate the Holy Mass anywhere they go. You could say that you are afraid that the first time they speak out during the Eucharistic prayer, they would be so embarrassed that they never participate again.

That is, of course, if that’s what your motivation is. But they’re good reasons to follow the GIRM…we’re the Universal Church, after all.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

The short answer is your bishop doesn’t have the authority to let you stand and the priest doesn’t have the authority to play sing-along with parts that belong to him alone.

On the other hand, though, while it would be good to correct these obvious abuses, we need to be very careful with presenting things to children because we don’t want to unnecessarily reveal to them pastoral malfeasance. That will be very hard in this case, because you can’t exactly tell them that what your parish does is okay, but you also shouldn’t be telling them, “This is what is supposed to happen but at our parish we disobey the Church.” So you’ll need to construct a tightrope to get over the abuses.

 

[lak611]

I am a catechist and had a meeting with the DRE for lesson planning. I am working with children who are 2nd-4th grade, but in their first year of Catholic education.

There are a few things we do at our parish that is different from others and agains the GIRM. I have not had time to discuss it with my priest yet, but thought I’d ask the DRE. One of the first lessons for these kids is about the structure of the liturgy, and I assume they will have these questions too.

First, we do not kneel during the consecration. Few even bow. The DRE said that the bishop does not require kneeling in our diocese.

Second, the entire congregation joins in with the priest singing “Through Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor are yours, Almighty Father. Forever and ever, amen” I mentioned to the DRE that this isn’t done at other parishes even within our diocese. She said that priests have “pastoral freedom” to make decsisions for their parish.

So, should I accept this and continue on, or do you think these are issues I should be concerned about?

Both of these practices are abuses. You should contact your bishop.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi Kimberly,

Although these practices are not instructed, they will probably not be changed easily, if this is what the pastor wants to do.

Perhaps you could very respectfully ask him about them, and mention that you are not comfortable instructing children to do something contrary to the GIRM.

If you report him to the Bishop, he may be told to stop these practices, or maybe not, but either way, how do you think he will respond to your reporting him?

If you cannot obey your pastor, perhaps you might try a different area of service. That is what I would do.

God bless you—it is a difficult task ahead of you.

Lux

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I am a catechist and had a meeting with the DRE for lesson planning. I am working with children who are 2nd-4th grade, but in their first year of Catholic education.

There are a few things we do at our parish that is different from others and agains the GIRM. I have not had time to discuss it with my priest yet, but thought I’d ask the DRE. One of the first lessons for these kids is about the structure of the liturgy, and I assume they will have these questions too.

First, we do not kneel during the consecration. Few even bow. The DRE said that the bishop does not require kneeling in our diocese.

Second, the entire congregation joins in with the priest singing “Through Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor are yours, Almighty Father. Forever and ever, amen” I mentioned to the DRE that this isn’t done at other parishes even within our diocese. She said that priests have “pastoral freedom” to make decsisions for their parish.

So, should I accept this and continue on, or do you think these are issues I should be concerned about?

You should be concerned when we are intentionally teaching incorrect liturgical formation.

 

[Brendan]

Hi Kimberly,

Although these practices are not instructed, they will probably not be changed easily, if this is what the pastor wants to do.

Perhaps you could very respectfully ask him about them, and mention that you are not comfortable instructing children to do something contrary to the GIRM.

If you report him to the Bishop, he may be told to stop these practices, or maybe not, but either way, how do you think he will respond to your reporting him?

Well, hopefully, he’ll be enough of a man to admit when he was wrong and apologize.

Either way, one should stop in seeking Justice just because one might fear vindictiveness or pettyness on the part of a cleric.

Clerics have vows of Obedience. Those are Sacramental Vows equal in import to those of Fidelity taken in Marriage.

Sure there are different grades of violations of Obedience, just as there are different grades in violations of Fidelity.

All are wrong, though, and are deserving of correction.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi Brendan,

Agreed, but this is the real world. If a person intends to report his pastor to the bishop, it would be good to realize the relationship with the pastor will probably change, but probably nothing else will.

This is why I responded as I did.

Lux

 

[drafdog]

“I am a catechist and had a meeting with the DRE for lesson planning. I am working with children who are 2nd-4th grade, but in their first year of Catholic education.”

You were discussing the lesson plans for your class of students. When you digressed into a critique of the liturgy you were gossiping about the priest. This is a sinful activity as you learned in grade school. Kindly in future keep to the subject of your meeting with the DRE and confess to the priest your gossiping.

Matthew

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

HI,

It is not gossipping. Kim was asking advice about instructing the children on their participation in the liturgy.

Perhaps you need to explore your anger and judgemental words.

Lux

 

[Scotty_PGH]

When you digressed into a critique of the liturgy you were gossiping about the priest.

Nonsense. When liturgical abuses occur, they need to be exposed and corrected.

 

[Kanda]

“I am a catechist and had a meeting with the DRE for lesson planning. I am working with children who are 2nd-4th grade, but in their first year of Catholic education.”

You were discussing the lesson plans for your class of students. When you digressed into a critique of the liturgy you were gossiping about the priest. This is a sinful activity as you learned in grade school. Kindly in future keep to the subject of your meeting with the DRE and confess to the priest your gossiping.

Matthew

I am sorry if it seemed in my original post that I was gossiping. However, one of the lessons in the first unit is to teach the children how to properly respond during the mass. While we were discussing how to present this to the children, I told the DRE that I had noticed differences between our parish and others I have attended recently. I told her I wanted to know why we do things differently because I anticipate that if some of the children have attended different parishes, they will have noticed the differences as well. I wanted to be prepared to answer these questions. I did not consider this gossiping and do not feel I have to confess for doing such. My DRE is a resource to use for teaching these children properly. I only want to teach them to the best of my ability.

However, I do plan on speaking with my priest. He is very busy and so am I, so we are just having a little difficulty finding a time that works well for both of us. I do feel comfortable approaching him and asking him in a respectful manner why we do things differently and to also broach my concerns regarding teaching things this way to the children.

 

[Kanda]

Your diocese/archdiocese should have an office of liturgy. I would get in touch with them and ask them for a copy of any diocese-specific adaptations to the GIRM that they might have. Then I would compare notes with the DRE and the pastor, separately. Tell them that your end result with these kids is to have them feel comfortable to celebrate the Holy Mass anywhere they go. You could say that you are afraid that the first time they speak out during the Eucharistic prayer, they would be so embarrassed that they never participate again.

That is, of course, if that’s what your motivation is. But they’re good reasons to follow the GIRM…we’re the Universal Church, after all.

Yes, my intention is to correctly instruct the children. Also, yes, I want to help them avoid embarressment. This is how I learned that singing along with the priest was not the norm. I was visiting my mom went to a Catholic church where she lives. I opened up my mouth at this point and had to shut it again pretty quickly. I was mortified.

My motivation is not to anger anyone or nitpick the liturgy. I just want to make sure that I fulfill my role as catechist by setting these children in the right direction.

Thank you for the advice to contact the office of liturgy. That is a wonderful idea.

 

[verdigirl]

Yes, my intention is to correctly instruct the children. Also, yes, I want to help them avoid embarressment. This is how I learned that singing along with the priest was not the norm. I was visiting my mom went to a Catholic church where she lives. I opened up my mouth at this point and had to shut it again pretty quickly. I was mortified.

My motivation is not to anger anyone or nitpick the liturgy. I just want to make sure that I fulfill my role as catechist by setting these children in the right direction.

Thank you for the advice to contact the office of liturgy. That is a wonderful idea.

I know exactly what you mean! I prefer the Novus Ordo mass, but we have a long way to go to make it perfect. So when I kneel at the correct places, etc., I’m often the only one! I kneel anyway.

Many RE programs have “children’s Masses.” Maybe you could encourage the DRE to ensure that the children are putting correct liturgical gestures and responses into practice during these Masses.

I would NOT lose the opportunity to speak with the pastor, however, since you feel comfortable with him. It’s possible that your words, spoken with grace and patience, will be enough to inspire change. If not, I would ask him how to handle the inevitable questions the children will raise about the difference. Let him script that for you.

 

[John_Lilburne]

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

“43. … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. …”.

This “some other good reason” makes it a difficult argument. Clearly standing is an option in the USA. The priest needs to be convinced that the reason people have been standing in his parish is not a “good reason”.

Because in the last paragraph of GIRM 43 it has: “With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.”

People saying “Through him, with him, in him …” is clearly a liturgical abuse. The rubrics in the margin of the Roman Missal have “Celebrant alone or with concelebrants”. Then it has “The people respond:” for the Amen. The children should be taught this.

 

[Chatter163]

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

“43. … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. …”.

This “some other good reason” makes it a difficult argument. Clearly standing is an option in the USA. The priest needs to be convinced that the reason people have been standing in his parish is not a “good reason”.

Because in the last paragraph of GIRM 43 it has: “With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.”

The argument is not difficult at all. The missal spells out what is to be done. It even says that the people kneel unless “prevented on occasion.” By using the word prevented, it further emphasizes what the norm is. A pastor would be hard-pressed to identify why he has decided to prevent people, unless he is celebrating Mass in a church that has concrete floors and no kneelers. Certainly a church with kneelers and/or carpeted floors would not qualify as “preventing” kneeling. Also, the use of the words on occasion further stresses how such extenuating circumstances are expected to be temporary, and not normative.

In no way is “standing clearly an option in the USA,” except in the minds of those who seek to circumvent what the Church has directed.

 

[verdigirl]

The argument is not difficult at all. The missal spells out what is to be done. It evens says that the people kneel unless “prevented on occasion.” By using the word prevented, it further emphasizes what the norm is. A pastor would be hard-pressed to identify why he has decided to prevent people, unless he is celebrating Mass in a church that has concrete floors and no kneelers. Certainly a church with kneelers and/or carpeted floors would not qualify as “preventing” kneeling. Also, the use of the words on occasion further stresses how such extenuating circumstances are expected to be temporary, and not normative.

In no way is “standing clearly an option in the USA,” except in the minds of those who seek to circumvent what the Church has directed.

Yep, I second that motion. For example, at my old parish, we had a gym from the days when there was a school. During Palm Sunday or Easter Sunday liturgies, we knew there would be overflow, so we would hold those celebrations in the gym. We would instruct people to stand instead of kneel because concrete and asbestos is really hard on older people…we would even invite the older people to sit if they were more comfortable.

That would be an extenuating circumstance.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

What a statement on the current state of the Church when the faithful have to be convinced, coerced, and provided with written instructions urging them to kneel as Our Lord is made present.

 

[verdigirl]

What a statement on the current state of the Church when the faithful have to be convinced, coerced, and provided with written instructions urging them to kneel as Our Lord is made present.

It is what it is. I seem to recall that there was a missal for the TLM, and I would need those written instructions and urging too.

I take my hat off to the OP, because instead of wringing her hands, she’s doing what she can to make sure those kids are well trained. We should all take her lead.