The key here is actually “repentance” for it is only through repentance that we can receive forgiveness.A mortal sin is one which (if not forgiven before death) condemns one to Hell.
It should be noted here that repentance for venial sin is necessary in this life as well. Obstinate refusal to repent venial sin increase the gravity of the sin for it brings in other and more serious components.A venial sin is one which can be forgiven after death in purgatory (though it is of course good to repent of venial sins during this life).
And one has to know what the true faith is and consciously reject it for this to apply.It should be noted that deliberately remaining outside of the true faith is itself a mortal sin.
I don’t think this is actually taught anymore. Limbo was never an official doctrine of the Church.It should also be noted that one who dies in original sin only (meaning that the guilt of original sin has not been remitted but one has not committed any mortal sins) would go to Limbo, a state of perfect natural happiness (most theologians would say that no one actually dies in such a state, however that is another topic).
Now of course it is to be noted that it is not simply “mortal sin” and “venial sin” that is involved…What is the difference between mortal sin and the other kind? I’ve seen “mortal sin” mentioned on this website, but I have been raised protestant and I’m not sure what the distinction is. I learned that, without faith in Christ, any sin sends us to Hell.
Thanks for your time,
Curious Lutheran teenager.
To clarify, all mortal sins are deliberate but not all deliberate sins are mortal. It is possible to commit a deliberate venial sin.Mortal sin is, in a nutshell, a thought or act that is deliberately offensive to God.
Not necessarily. Being obstinate in a venal sin is not grave matter.It should be noted here that repentance for venial sin is necessary in this life as well. Obstinate refusal to repent venial sin increase the gravity of the sin for it brings in other and more serious components.
Thus the word “deliberately”.And one has to know what the true faith is and consciously reject it for this to apply.
The Church teaches that if someone dies in a state of original sin they would go to limbo. What is uncertain is whether or not anyone actually dies in such a state.I don’t think this is actually taught anymore. Limbo was never an official doctrine of the Church.
Today I believe that we simply teach that we do not know what becomes of such souls but leave them to the mercy of God.
Peace
James
Had to give this some thought, but I now see that you are right.To clarify, all mortal sins are deliberate but not all deliberate sins are mortal. It is possible to commit a deliberate venial sin.
Here I disagree. Being obstinate in sin IS grave matter for it violates the first and greatest commandment To Love the Lord Our God with all our heart and mind and strength.Not necessarily. Being obstinate in a venal sin is not grave matter.
YES - This is the thing that we must always keep in mind when having these conversations. I’m glad you pointed this out.Thus the word “deliberately”.
Basically a mortal sin is any of the sins listed in Galatians 5:19-21 with full knowledge it is a grave sin and full consent of the will to do it.What is the difference between mortal sin and the other kind? I’ve seen “mortal sin” mentioned on this website, but I have been raised protestant and I’m not sure what the distinction is. I learned that, without faith in Christ, any sin sends us to Hell.
Thanks for your time,
Curious Lutheran teenager.
Of course.That said, I would still hold that deliberately committing - even small sin - increases the seriousness of the sin.
No. Obstinacy in sin increases the seriousness of the sin, however it only is grave in itself if the sin was already grave. Of course habitual venial sin disposes a soul to commit mortal sin more easily, but it is not itself mortally sinful.Here I disagree. Being obstinate in sin IS grave matter
“the souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only … immediately descendinto Hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.” taught by the Second Council of Lyons.Could you point me to the document where limbo is taught?
I believe that isn’t referring to limbo but rather different levels of hell. Limbo wasn’t for those committing mortals sins.Of course.
No. Obstinacy in sin increases the seriousness of the sin, however it only is grave in itself if the sin was already grave. Of course habitual venial sin disposes a soul to commit mortal sin more easily, but it is not itself mortally sinful.
“the souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only … immediately descendinto Hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.” taught by the Second Council of Lyons.
I think that the problem we may be dealing with here is that you see obstinacy as a component of the lesser sin, where I see obstinacy as indicating a separate sin.No. Obstinacy in sin increases the seriousness of the sin, however it only is grave in itself if the sin was already grave. Of course habitual venial sin disposes a soul to commit mortal sin more easily, but it is not itself mortally sinful.
Maybe I’m too dense…but I don’t see this as teaching “limbo”, at least as it was described to me many years ago.“the souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only … immediately descendinto Hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.” taught by the Second Council of Lyons.
A person who is continuing --even deliberately and repeatedly – in committing a particular venial sin —is continuing committing that venial sin. Certainly not good and there such can lead a person to take the step of committing a mortal sin. But such is not a mortal sin.Here I disagree. Being obstinate in sin IS grave matter for it violates the first and greatest commandment To Love the Lord Our God with all our heart and mind and strength.
Being obstinate in sin is something separate from whatever the venial sin might be.
Continuing to commit a particular venial sin is not per se a “rejection of God’s sovereignty” by nature venial sin doe not reject such.Gossip may or may not be a mortal sin…But it is sin…and if this is pointed out and one obstinately refuses to stop gossiping (or at least honestly trying to stop)…then the root sin is not Gossip, but a rejection of God’s sovereignty.
Hell simply means that one is seperated from God. The Council said that those who died in original sin only would go to Hell, but would be punished differently then those who died in mortal sin. Since one who is not in mortal sin does not deserve to be damned, there must be a state of being where they would neither be saved nor damned (if there are any souls who actually die in original sin only).Maybe I’m too dense…but I don’t see this as teaching “limbo”, at least as it was described to me many years ago.
When I was in School we were taught that Purgatory was like hell - but temporary - and Limbo was more like heaven, but without the beatific vision. It was the place where unbaptized babies went who were innocent of any personal sin.
If I may, a venial sin is a sin that, for one thing, first of all doesn’t fit the criterion of “grave matter.”Thanks BC…
I am still struggling to reconcile some of these matters. I hear what you are saying and I read what the Catechism says…but my heart tells me that there is something wrong - disconnected.
Certainly it can be my own failing to understand - but in most places where I have struggled with a Church teaching, my heart does not trouble me. When trying to understand these issues of sin it is a different matter.
That said…You made some good points in your post and I think that we are approaching it in a similar way.
But something stated in the Catechism that gives me trouble is this: “Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin”
I suppose that I need to consider why a deliberate and unrepented sin would be considered venial…My first thought is a lack of understanding of the sinful nature of the thought or act. It’s difficult to repent of something you don’t know is wrong.
Also - there is the matter of the object of the sin (stealing a pencil vs stealing a car)…
Obviously I need to ponder these things further. Unfortunately I get distracted in my life and mostly wind up pondering these matters here with you and others.
So - I appreciate your patient comments.
To me - the significant question is whether the reason one continues to (knowingly) sin is from weakness or from obstinacy.
Peace
James
So - can you provide the criterion for “Grave matter”?If I may, a venial sin is a sin that, for one thing, first of all doesn’t fit the criterion of “grave matter.”