K
Katholikos
Guest
**LutheranStudent [/quote said:
- Status
K
Katholikos
Guest
Hey, Curious, play nice, huh?
C
Curious
Guest
Hey, Curious, play nice, huh?
Lol…all right K. But only because YOU asked me to. 
Apologies for offense.
K
Katholikos
Guest
Curious said:
Jay (Katholikos)
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
First of all I have read every converts story on CHN. I went back and re-read yours. Good stuff.
Now LS, it doesnt bother you that your version of Christianity is named after Luther?..The Catholic Church takes on no such titles, for Luther is a nobody in the Bible and early Christianity.
Now that bombardment of posts does deserves some reaction on our part. Ill toss out what I think, some of it noboys has said anything about…
According to your post Luther knew the Bible better that anyone who ever existed. So how did he get stuff wrong? With Luther gone you have nobody to tell you when Luther was in error, or what the truth is now!
Now LS, it doesnt bother you that your version of Christianity is named after Luther?..The Catholic Church takes on no such titles, for Luther is a nobody in the Bible and early Christianity.
Now that bombardment of posts does deserves some reaction on our part. Ill toss out what I think, some of it noboys has said anything about…
Houston, problem, Houston…
According to your post Luther knew the Bible better that anyone who ever existed. So how did he get stuff wrong? With Luther gone you have nobody to tell you when Luther was in error, or what the truth is now!
WOW! No need for anymore posts i guess.
Most Prots have NO HISTORY or HEIRARCHY, that is why they divide like cells in the body.
This is unreasonable fear and anti-NT ideology. Would God allow his teaching to vanish?! The Church proudly says NEVER!
Im sure Christ is hurt because of this kind of attitude, throwing up your hands because you want to be able to do your own thing. The Church cries when it sees more and more divisions. How many people are in the world? 6bill? If each person went their own way just imagine the mess. The Church is like your parents, they have a lot on thier plate, they are not able to Please everyone, at the end of the day they look like they have done nothing at all or everything wrong. All they want is to pass on the core values and have you grow up remembering and respecting them.
Where is the Bible does Lutheran = Christian. You admit you are divided among yourselves. Wait why do you put quotattions around ‘Christian’?
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
I see what you are sayin on sola scriptura, but you still need an authoritative interpretation. You refuse to accept this.
There is no respect in Protestantism that is why when someone doesnt like what his pastor said he goes and starts his own church.
You dont react unless attacked. For example in the USA…why did the founders not out law gay weddings in the constititution and other documents if it was really a bad thing? The reason is because it was so far from what anyone could imagine was even questionable. Now when it was being forced upon us all 11 states in question firmly disallow it via the people voting.
I have had this same question myself. BUT I actually found that NOT all ot the OT books are referenced in the NT. By the way if Luther put the Apocryphal books in the index or back of the Bible, why do most Bibles not have them at all? Does you Bible at least have them in the back as Luther would want?
You quote “unity” as if it is not Gods desire and/or impossible.
Whats this doctrinal compromise bunk? You admit you guys never agreed to begin with, so by throwing out stuff you are not really throwing out hard core truths, only what sounds good at the time. The only thing rhetorical question is why you continue on the merry-go-round that you find yourself on and not realizing it.
How many works for Catholics? Well you take your age, divide by 5 , minus 1and multipy by 3 times you age. If your number doesnt equal 666 then you dont get to heaven. How many? How Sure? Whats good? You turned around our very question of faith alone. Debt is paid?.. Are you implying that we are free to do as we wish?
Here we have it. He admits that all that division is wrong and that there is one true way. But he cant understand that there must be an interpreter so we know what is true. The sole reason why the Lutherans cant agree is because they want their own interpretationS.
What is wrong with someone explaining the bible to you?
THE POINT OF MATT,MARK, LUKE, JOHN, IS TO TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO LIVE LIFE BY EXAMPLE, NOT TO READ A BOOK. This is the biggest failure of Protestantism, they want a free & easy ride. Now I am not saying burn the Bible, it is the most important tool we have. But the way people use a tool can be wrong or even destructive.
The Protestant mind is exposed more here than any place ive seen on this thread. YOUR OWN Bible? You speak as if all 6billion people in the world deserve their very own copy, or else they havent any hope. Having a Bible is a luxury, we thank God that we can have a copy to read.
D
Des
Guest
You pick and choose quotes out of context as you do the Bible Luthern student.
"He that believes in the Son has everlasting life [John 3:36]… "Is it ENOUGH, then, to BELIEVE in the Son," someone will say, “in order to have everlasting life?” BY NO MEANS! Listen to Christ declare this Himself when He says, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven” [Matt 7:21]; and the blasphemy against the Spirit is alone sufficient to cast him into hell. But why should I speak of a PART of our teaching? For if a man BELIEVE rightly in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but does not LIVE RIGHTLY, his faith will avail him NOTHING TOWARD SALVATION. (Homilies on John 31:1)
For what he saith is this, “Your salvation is not our work alone, but your own as well; for both we in preaching to you the word endure affliction, and ye in receiving it endure the very same; we to impart to you that which we received, ye to receive what is imparted and not to let it go.” Now what humility can compare with this, seeing that those who fell so far short of him he raiseth to the same dignity of endurance? for he saith, "Which worked in the enduring of the same sufferings;" for not through believing only cometh your salvation, but also through the suffering and enduring the same things with us. (Homily on the Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, NPNF1: Volume 12, page 277)
For, “think not,” saith he, "because ye have believed, that this is sufficient for your salvation: since if to me neither preaching nor teaching nor bringing over innumerable persons, is enough for salvation unless I exhibit my own conduct also unblameable, much less to you. (Homily 23, NPNF1: Volume 12, page 133)
(Galatians 5) Verse 6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love." What is the meaning of "working through love?" Here he gives them a hard blow, by showing that this error had crept in because the love of Christ had not been rooted within them. For to believe is not all that is required, but also to abide in love. (Commentary on Galatians 5, NPNF1: Volume 13, page 37)
Now lets see what more they have to say about Justification.
"He that believes in the Son has everlasting life [John 3:36]… "Is it ENOUGH, then, to BELIEVE in the Son," someone will say, “in order to have everlasting life?” BY NO MEANS! Listen to Christ declare this Himself when He says, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven” [Matt 7:21]; and the blasphemy against the Spirit is alone sufficient to cast him into hell. But why should I speak of a PART of our teaching? For if a man BELIEVE rightly in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but does not LIVE RIGHTLY, his faith will avail him NOTHING TOWARD SALVATION. (Homilies on John 31:1)
For what he saith is this, “Your salvation is not our work alone, but your own as well; for both we in preaching to you the word endure affliction, and ye in receiving it endure the very same; we to impart to you that which we received, ye to receive what is imparted and not to let it go.” Now what humility can compare with this, seeing that those who fell so far short of him he raiseth to the same dignity of endurance? for he saith, "Which worked in the enduring of the same sufferings;" for not through believing only cometh your salvation, but also through the suffering and enduring the same things with us. (Homily on the Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, NPNF1: Volume 12, page 277)
For, “think not,” saith he, "because ye have believed, that this is sufficient for your salvation: since if to me neither preaching nor teaching nor bringing over innumerable persons, is enough for salvation unless I exhibit my own conduct also unblameable, much less to you. (Homily 23, NPNF1: Volume 12, page 133)
(Galatians 5) Verse 6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love." What is the meaning of "working through love?" Here he gives them a hard blow, by showing that this error had crept in because the love of Christ had not been rooted within them. For to believe is not all that is required, but also to abide in love. (Commentary on Galatians 5, NPNF1: Volume 13, page 37)
D
Des
Guest
…cont…
But this I will say, that **we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and shall give account of our words and deeds. **I, who for every other reason dread this tribunal, now that Iam encompassed with calumny, find my chief consolation in the thought of it. NPNF2, Vol.3, p. 287. If they know that we do not keep the apostolic rule of the faith, but swerve to the right hand or the left, let them hate us; let them join the opposite side; let them be ranked with them that are at war with us. But if they bear witness to our holding the right teaching of the gospel message, we hail them with the cry, "Do you too `stand having your loins girt about with truth,…and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace,’"Eph. 6:14 and so on, for it is said **that virtue comprises not only temperance, righteousness, and prudence, but also courage, and that by means of courage the rest of its component parts are preserved. **For righteousness needs the alliance of courage in its war against wrong; temperance vanquishes intemperance by the aid of courage. And for this reason the God of all said to the prophet “The just shall live by his faith, and if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” (Heb. 10:38, Hab. 2:4) ) Shrinking he calls cowardice. Hold fast then, my dear friend, to the apostolic doctrines, for “He that shall come will come, and will not tarry,” (Heb 10:37) and “He shall render to every man according to his deeds,”(Rom. 2:6) for “the fashion of this world passeth away,” (1 Cor. 7:31) and the truth shall be made manifest. NPNF2, Vol.3, p. 298.Those whom He predestined, those also did He call; and those whom He called, those also did He justify; and those whom He justified, those also did He glorify(Rom. 8:30)” Those whose resolve He foreknew, He predestined from the beginning. Predestining them, He did also call them. Calling them, **He justified them by Baptism; and justifying them, He glorified them, calling them sons and bestowing on them the grace of the Holy Spirit. **But no one would say that His foreknowledge is the cause of this: for His foreknowledge does not accomplish such things as these. Rather, God, since He is God sees from afar those things that are going to be…The God of the universe, since He is God, sees all things from afar. Assuredly this imposes no necessity on anyone of practicing virtue, nor on anyone of doing evil. For if a man be compelled to either course, it is not right that he be either praised and crowned, or condemned to punishment. If God is just, as just He be, He encourages to those things that are good, and dissuades from the contrary; and He praises those who do good, and punishes those who voluntarily embrace evil. Jurgens, ibid., #2162, p. 248.
If they give both to the pleadings of the opponents, and deliver a sentence acceptable to them, I shall put up with the injustice as bringing me nearer to the kingdom of heaven, and shall await that impartial tribunal, where there is neither prosecutor, nor counsel, nor witness, nor distinction in rank, but **judgment of deeds and words and righteous retribution. “For,” it is said, "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one may receive the things done in his body according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad. **NPNF2, Vol.3, p. 284.
But this I will say, that **we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and shall give account of our words and deeds. **I, who for every other reason dread this tribunal, now that Iam encompassed with calumny, find my chief consolation in the thought of it. NPNF2, Vol.3, p. 287. If they know that we do not keep the apostolic rule of the faith, but swerve to the right hand or the left, let them hate us; let them join the opposite side; let them be ranked with them that are at war with us. But if they bear witness to our holding the right teaching of the gospel message, we hail them with the cry, "Do you too `stand having your loins girt about with truth,…and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace,’"Eph. 6:14 and so on, for it is said **that virtue comprises not only temperance, righteousness, and prudence, but also courage, and that by means of courage the rest of its component parts are preserved. **For righteousness needs the alliance of courage in its war against wrong; temperance vanquishes intemperance by the aid of courage. And for this reason the God of all said to the prophet “The just shall live by his faith, and if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” (Heb. 10:38, Hab. 2:4) ) Shrinking he calls cowardice. Hold fast then, my dear friend, to the apostolic doctrines, for “He that shall come will come, and will not tarry,” (Heb 10:37) and “He shall render to every man according to his deeds,”(Rom. 2:6) for “the fashion of this world passeth away,” (1 Cor. 7:31) and the truth shall be made manifest. NPNF2, Vol.3, p. 298.Those whom He predestined, those also did He call; and those whom He called, those also did He justify; and those whom He justified, those also did He glorify(Rom. 8:30)” Those whose resolve He foreknew, He predestined from the beginning. Predestining them, He did also call them. Calling them, **He justified them by Baptism; and justifying them, He glorified them, calling them sons and bestowing on them the grace of the Holy Spirit. **But no one would say that His foreknowledge is the cause of this: for His foreknowledge does not accomplish such things as these. Rather, God, since He is God sees from afar those things that are going to be…The God of the universe, since He is God, sees all things from afar. Assuredly this imposes no necessity on anyone of practicing virtue, nor on anyone of doing evil. For if a man be compelled to either course, it is not right that he be either praised and crowned, or condemned to punishment. If God is just, as just He be, He encourages to those things that are good, and dissuades from the contrary; and He praises those who do good, and punishes those who voluntarily embrace evil. Jurgens, ibid., #2162, p. 248.
D
Des
Guest
…cont…
If anyone says that faith MERITS the grace of doing GOOD WORKS, we cannot deny it; rather we admit it most readily. THIS is the FAITH we wish they might have, the FAITH by which they might obtain that LOVE which ALONE truly DOES GOOD WORKS, those brothers of ours who glory so much in their works! LOVE, however, is so much the gift of God that it is called God [1 John 4:8]…
Let no one say to himself: "If [justification] is from faith, how is it freely given [Rom 5:1; 3:24] : If faith MERITS it, why is it not rather paid than given?" Let the faithful man not say such a thing; for, if he says: “I have faith, therefore I merit justification,” he will be answered: “What have you that you did not receive” [1 Cor 4:7]? If therefore, faith entreats and receives JUSTIFICATION, according as God has apportioned to each in the measure of his faith [Rom 12:3], nothing of human merit PRECEDES the grace of God, but grace itself MERITS INCREASE, and the increase MERITS PERFECTION, with the will ACCOMPANYING but not leading, following ALONG but not going in advance. (Letters 186:3:7,10)
What is grace? Something given -gratis-. What is given -gratis-? That which is bestowed rather than paid as owed. *If it is owed, it is wages paid, not a gift graciously given. If it was truly owed, you have been good; but if, as is the case, you have been evil, but YOU DID BELIEVE IN HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE IMPIOUS * – and what is MEANT BY “He justifies the impious?” That HE MAKES THE IMPIOUS PIOUS – think what was rightly threatened you by the law, and what you have obtained by grace! But since you have gotten that grace of faith, you shall be just by faith; for the just man lives by faith [Rom 1:17; Hab 2:4]. And by living faith you shall DESERVE WELL of God; and when you shall have deserved well of God by LIVING by faith, as REWARD you shall receive immortality and ETERNAL LIFE. AND THAT IS GRACE. Because of what MERIT, then, do you receive ETERNAL LIFE? BECAUSE OF GRACE. (Homilies on the Gospel of John 3:9)
Now as to LOVE, which the Apostle says is greater than the other two, that is, than faith and hope [1 Cor 13:13], so much the better is he in whom it is found. For when it is asked whether someone is a good man, it is not asked what he BELIEVES or what he hopes for, but what he LOVES. For if someone loves rightly, without a doubt he believes and hopes rightly. But someone who does not love believes IN VAIN even if what he believes is TRUE; and he hopes IN VAIN, even if what he hopes for is rightly taught as pertaining to true happiness unless he believes and hopes for this also, that through prayer it may be given him to love…This however, is the FAITH of Christ which the Apostle commanded, which WORKS THROUGH LOVE [Gal 5:6]; and for whatever it does not yet have in love, it asks and receives, seeks and finds, knocks so that it will be opened to it [Matt 7:7]. Faith asks and OBTAINS what the law COMMANDS. For without the Gift of God, that is, without the Holy Spirit, through whom LOVE is poured out into our hearts [Rom 5:5], the law could command but could not help. Moreoever, the law could make a man a transgressor, who could not excuse himself on grounds of ignorance. Where there is NO love of God, carnal desire does reign. (Enchiridion of Faith, Hope, and Love 31:117)
**
You are the only authorities who suppose that JUSTIFICATION is conferred by the remission alone of sins. Certainly God JUSTIFIES the impious man not only by remitting the evil deeds which that man does, but ALSO by granting LOVE, so that the man may turn away from evil and may DO GOOD THROUGH the Holy Spirit. (Against Julian 2:165)
If anyone says that faith MERITS the grace of doing GOOD WORKS, we cannot deny it; rather we admit it most readily. THIS is the FAITH we wish they might have, the FAITH by which they might obtain that LOVE which ALONE truly DOES GOOD WORKS, those brothers of ours who glory so much in their works! LOVE, however, is so much the gift of God that it is called God [1 John 4:8]…
Let no one say to himself: "If [justification] is from faith, how is it freely given [Rom 5:1; 3:24] : If faith MERITS it, why is it not rather paid than given?" Let the faithful man not say such a thing; for, if he says: “I have faith, therefore I merit justification,” he will be answered: “What have you that you did not receive” [1 Cor 4:7]? If therefore, faith entreats and receives JUSTIFICATION, according as God has apportioned to each in the measure of his faith [Rom 12:3], nothing of human merit PRECEDES the grace of God, but grace itself MERITS INCREASE, and the increase MERITS PERFECTION, with the will ACCOMPANYING but not leading, following ALONG but not going in advance. (Letters 186:3:7,10)
What is grace? Something given -gratis-. What is given -gratis-? That which is bestowed rather than paid as owed. *If it is owed, it is wages paid, not a gift graciously given. If it was truly owed, you have been good; but if, as is the case, you have been evil, but YOU DID BELIEVE IN HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE IMPIOUS * – and what is MEANT BY “He justifies the impious?” That HE MAKES THE IMPIOUS PIOUS – think what was rightly threatened you by the law, and what you have obtained by grace! But since you have gotten that grace of faith, you shall be just by faith; for the just man lives by faith [Rom 1:17; Hab 2:4]. And by living faith you shall DESERVE WELL of God; and when you shall have deserved well of God by LIVING by faith, as REWARD you shall receive immortality and ETERNAL LIFE. AND THAT IS GRACE. Because of what MERIT, then, do you receive ETERNAL LIFE? BECAUSE OF GRACE. (Homilies on the Gospel of John 3:9)
Now as to LOVE, which the Apostle says is greater than the other two, that is, than faith and hope [1 Cor 13:13], so much the better is he in whom it is found. For when it is asked whether someone is a good man, it is not asked what he BELIEVES or what he hopes for, but what he LOVES. For if someone loves rightly, without a doubt he believes and hopes rightly. But someone who does not love believes IN VAIN even if what he believes is TRUE; and he hopes IN VAIN, even if what he hopes for is rightly taught as pertaining to true happiness unless he believes and hopes for this also, that through prayer it may be given him to love…This however, is the FAITH of Christ which the Apostle commanded, which WORKS THROUGH LOVE [Gal 5:6]; and for whatever it does not yet have in love, it asks and receives, seeks and finds, knocks so that it will be opened to it [Matt 7:7]. Faith asks and OBTAINS what the law COMMANDS. For without the Gift of God, that is, without the Holy Spirit, through whom LOVE is poured out into our hearts [Rom 5:5], the law could command but could not help. Moreoever, the law could make a man a transgressor, who could not excuse himself on grounds of ignorance. Where there is NO love of God, carnal desire does reign. (Enchiridion of Faith, Hope, and Love 31:117)
**
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Paris Blues:
God Bless
Hi Paris,Why are there so many breeds of dogs? There are choices to please everyone… Theres a church to fit everyones style and need. The difference is Catholics are all in unity whether they like it or not.Protestants can seperate the disgrunted by forming different denominations
God Bless
C
Curious
Guest
This is true, Spoken, but should this be? Was in the mind of Paul when he wrote his epistles (Or in the mind of Jesus for that matter) that we should be so varied and so fragmented that we can just choose one that conforms to what we want, whether than conforming ourselves to how God wants things to be?
I used to say things like that. If someone said, “I’m just not my happy at my church.” I’d say, “Oh well…there’s scads more out there…go find one you like and that YOU feel comfortable with.”
I don’t know about all that anymore.
K
Katholikos
Guest
Sure, Paris, there is no real, absolute “truth,” so just choose whatever religion suits your style and “need.” If it suits your style and personal need to believe that there are many gods, become a Mormon. If believing in abortion suits your needs and style, become an Episcopalian or Lutheran. Find the Trinity hard to believe? Then choose the United Pentecostals. If you can’t find a church ready-made that suits you, start your own. What the hay, none of it is true anyway, it just makes us feel good to believe in something – anything. Choosing a church is like choosing a pet – just choose the one you like best. You prefer a pet rock to a pet dog? Sure, whatever makes your clock tick.Hi Paris,Why are there so many breeds of dogs? There are choices to please everyone… Theres a church to fit everyones style and need. The difference is Catholics are all in unity whether they like it or not.Protestants can seperate the disgrunted by forming different denominations
Catholics are in unity because Christ founded the Church to teach THE TRUTH. Truth is singular. One. But you don’t need to pay any attention to Him, Paris. You do as you please, hear? If it’s right for you, then it’s true for you, and there ain’t no real “truth” nohow. Spokenword has spoken.
:nope: Jay
J
john_ennis
Guest
Hola, Nathan!
There is a fact about the Catholic Church’s teaching vis a vis works which you may not know, and without which you would naturally reject our teaching as a reflex. It is that the Church has always taught that no good orginates from our selves. To believe so is heretical. Our belief is that the willingness to cooperate with Christ’s unmerited grace allows that grace to work in us, in the form of works of charity (not to be confused with works of the law).
Even that will, we believe, is made possible only through His grace. But (here’s the big difference between us), we are free to choose to respond to his grace or not. It is not an unchosen, spontaneous act, but one which, though I’m a believer, I may choose not to do. My faith is thus completed, or not. That is how my works (Matthew’s sheep and goats, you know) can be a criterion for God to judge me. That is why we, like Paul, can be said to “Work out our salvation in fear and trembling.”
So it is not of us, yet God allows us to play this role in our salvation.
“How people can still miss this…” is a fascinating reflection. It shows how two sincere and not-altogether-stupid people like us can see things so differently. I say the same (“It’s beyond me how people can fail to see…”) about the Gospels’ repeated theme of us being judged by our works of love. “Master what must I do…” “Well,” Jesus said, “you don’t have to do anything.”
That was just an aside. There are, I’m sure, theological reasons for you to continue to disagree, but please, say no more that I believe I earn my salvation.
Peace.
John
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Hi Curious,Thats the problem with many churches. Its about preaching a feel good gospel,instead of preaching the message of John the Baptist. Churches need to preach the true Gospel message. Repent and be baptised.Obey the commandments. Jesus said if you do not obey me you do not love me. Many churches do not love Jesus.
God Bless
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
Hi, I wouldnt be saying this if I didnt finally get it beaten in my head by people at CA.Hi Curious,Thats the problem with many churches. Its about preaching a feel good gospel,instead of preaching the message of John the Baptist. Churches need to preach the true Gospel message. Repent and be baptised.Obey the commandments. Jesus said if you do not obey me you do not love me. Many churches do not love Jesus.
Phrases like “Churches need to preach the true Gospel message”
are relative to what each church wants it to mean. This is a concept that some people cant grasp. It is true from a distance, but when you open up the Bible itself you are bombarded with tons of information that requires a sure interpretation, and think before you preach guidance.
M
Mickey
Guest
Protestant churches are all about division. Remember, their exsisitence is because they protested Catholic doctrine. Even within their own denomination, they divide. If one group of baptists in the 1st baptist church disagrees with what is being taught, they start their own church and call it the 2nd baptist church. They celebrate their divisions! You don’t like the 2000 year old sacred traditions and liturgy? Start a new church! Set up state of the art video screens and put together a professional rock n’ roll band. The people will like it. They will be entertained! Call it non-denominational so as not to offend anyone. Doesn’t the Bible have some things to say about division?Hi Paris,Why are there so many breeds of dogs? There are choices to please everyone… Theres a church to fit everyones style and need. The difference is Catholics are all in unity whether they like it or not.Protestants can seperate the disgrunted by forming different denominations
We welcome you home Paris, with open arms, to the Church that Jesus Christ established!
D
DianJo
Guest
***Dang, you’re a good debater - I was just about to answer your posts to me! You were real busy this weekend! You’ve done a great job of trying to answer all the posts made ot you - better that most! ***
I’m sorry you feel like you’re getting no where - but that’s the nature of debate. Oh, BTW, you really won’t change anyone’s mind here - but good try. I’m just so sorry that other denominations will miss out on everything the Church has to offer in the way of deepening one’s faith and coming to a greater love (and knowledge) of Christ.
Good Luck to you, too.
D
Des
Guest
john ennis:
So to reject Faith with the help of God’s Graces is the same as rejecting the good works through love with the continuing help from the Graces of God through faith. We do not earn Salvation by our own good deeds, we are Saved by obedience to God’s Graces of which faith and works of love would otherwise be impossibe to obtain.
Augistine
…nothing of human merit Precedes the Grace of God, but Grace itself merits increase, and the increase merits perfection, and the will accompanying but not leading, following along but not going in advance. (letters 186:3:7,10)
Well said john. That is why i frown everytime i see a protestant use the Bible or the Chruch Fathers quotes to back up their faith alone heresy. It is easy to twist a verse that says “salvation comes by faith”. Misunderstanding the entirety of the word “faith” is what gets them into trouble. The works of love and charity are a natural occurance by the Grace of God through faith and to reject them also would be devestating to ones soul.
So to reject Faith with the help of God’s Graces is the same as rejecting the good works through love with the continuing help from the Graces of God through faith. We do not earn Salvation by our own good deeds, we are Saved by obedience to God’s Graces of which faith and works of love would otherwise be impossibe to obtain.
Augistine
…nothing of human merit Precedes the Grace of God, but Grace itself merits increase, and the increase merits perfection, and the will accompanying but not leading, following along but not going in advance. (letters 186:3:7,10)
I
INRI
Guest
Wow,
Gotta love it when you get a Protestant going who is tossing out proof text after prrof text, then leaves before he gets a response. Almost makes you want to forget aboutCONTEXT :banghead: and just assume that all the church fathers were members of the WELS. Well, weren’t they? I was laughing out loud when LS pulled out all those quotes supporting Sola *Scriptura, *not realizing that those church fathers were also talking about Maccabees and Tobit and the like which our dear departed friend doesn’t accept. Perhaps, if he comes back to this forum after dismounting from his high horse, he’ll check this link:
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp
that deals with the OT canon.
I noticed that my old church (for about 3 months), the International Church of Christ (Boston Movement) is up on the list of “Protestantisms”. Guess that’s what they’re calling themselves now. Great people, but they don’t have a clue about church history outside of maybe the book of Acts (and I don’t seem to recall them hitting that one too hard either). Good to be back home as a “revert”. I want to echo what a few of the posters (prior to Lutheran Student’s little foray) have stated, which is that we can afford to learn from our Protestant brothers about some of what they are doing RIGHT vis a vis evangelization and the like.
If there are any Protestants still on this forum, I reccommend picking up (or borrowing) a copy of The Spirit and the Forms of Protestantism by Louis Bouyer. His background is as a convert to the Catholicism, but he is very even-handed. The first part of his book could be entitled “What is Right with Protestantism”. I think he gives a very in depth and balanced view of the intellectual background of Protestantism, while also critiquing what he sees as its shortcomings.
Gotta love it when you get a Protestant going who is tossing out proof text after prrof text, then leaves before he gets a response. Almost makes you want to forget aboutCONTEXT :banghead: and just assume that all the church fathers were members of the WELS. Well, weren’t they? I was laughing out loud when LS pulled out all those quotes supporting Sola *Scriptura, *not realizing that those church fathers were also talking about Maccabees and Tobit and the like which our dear departed friend doesn’t accept. Perhaps, if he comes back to this forum after dismounting from his high horse, he’ll check this link:
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp
that deals with the OT canon.
I noticed that my old church (for about 3 months), the International Church of Christ (Boston Movement) is up on the list of “Protestantisms”. Guess that’s what they’re calling themselves now. Great people, but they don’t have a clue about church history outside of maybe the book of Acts (and I don’t seem to recall them hitting that one too hard either). Good to be back home as a “revert”. I want to echo what a few of the posters (prior to Lutheran Student’s little foray) have stated, which is that we can afford to learn from our Protestant brothers about some of what they are doing RIGHT vis a vis evangelization and the like.
If there are any Protestants still on this forum, I reccommend picking up (or borrowing) a copy of The Spirit and the Forms of Protestantism by Louis Bouyer. His background is as a convert to the Catholicism, but he is very even-handed. The first part of his book could be entitled “What is Right with Protestantism”. I think he gives a very in depth and balanced view of the intellectual background of Protestantism, while also critiquing what he sees as its shortcomings.
T
Theodred
Guest
Why is it that people who call themselves Bible Christians, so often ignore the bible? Jn 17:21; 1 Cor 12:12-13; Gal 3:28.Hi Paris,Why are there so many breeds of dogs? There are choices to please everyone… Theres a church to fit everyones style and need. The difference is Catholics are all in unity whether they like it or not.Protestants can seperate the disgrunted by forming different denominations
I’m tempted to comment on the dog analogy, but for the sake of charity…
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