Difficulties...

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I’ve been thinking about posting on some of these issues for some time now, but I am only just now getting to it. Apparently, late at night, when I really ought to be asleep, is the best time for this sort of thing. 🙂

I have been investigating Catholicism for several years, and there is much about it that I find very compelling. The moral stands of the Church, in particular, are particularly admirable. In fact, it is the Catholic Church’s position on contraception that tends to make me favor the Catholic Church over the Orthodox. I would add the prohibition on remarriage after divorce, but I believe the annulment process, at least as practiced in America, has the practical effect of nullifying any moral superiority in that area.

I also admire the Church from a cultural point of view. I love the beauty and the wonder of the liturgy and the art and the music. I love the history, the chivalry, and even the church buildings. As someone who grew up Protestant, there is something very liberating and wondrous about being able to affirm my Western Christian heritage.

And yet, I still struggle. There are some doctrines which I have not yet been able to accept. The Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, and Papal Infallibility are three. I mention them as a group, as they are not held as true by the Orthodox. There are other threads to discuss the particulars, but suffice it to say that it is difficult for me to accept that which appears to have been arrived at through speculation, rather than through a defense of that which has been held everywhere, by all, since the dawn of the Church.

There are also some modern, cultural elements of Catholicism with which I am not comfortable. One element is the emphasis on alleged Marian apparitions. It is said that these are private and people may accept them as they like, but there seems to be a rather official stamp of approval when one sees churches such as the Cathedral of our Lady of Lourdes, in Spokane, Washington, to give one example. If one, such as I, is not even certain about the truth of said apparition, how is one to feel about the church itself?

There are also a number of practices which I find rather strange. Beliefs that if one wears a certain item, one will be saved from Hell; or that, if one prays prayer X, Y times, then Z people will be sprung from Purgatory are completely foreign to my way of thinking.

There is also a sense of disillusionment, I suppose. The sense of glory as I attended a very reverent mass at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Savannah, Georgia, has not quite been repeated elsewhere, with guitar-playing musicians singing modern Protestant (or Protestant-like) worship songs. I am not drawn to Catholicism because it is like Protestantism. I am drawn to the sense of the sacred, which is so often not present in Protestant churches.

Finally, there is a family issue. My mother has expressed concern that if I become Catholic, my descendants will not have a personal relationship with Christ. She believes that I will bring up my own children to personally love Jesus, but she is concerned that, as time passes, my grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc., will experience a cultural religion that has no effect on their hearts.

Perhaps some of you have something to say that will help me through some of these issues. If nothing else, there is much to be said for a good discussion.

God bless!
 
There so much stuff there I might pick one or two for the moment

There are also some modern, cultural elements of Catholicism with which I am not comfortable. One element is the emphasis on alleged Marian apparitions. It is said that these are private and people may accept them as they like, but there seems to be a rather official stamp of approval when one sees churches such as the Cathedral of our Lady of Lourdes, in Spokane, Washington, to give one example. If one, such as I, is not even certain about the truth of said apparition, how is one to feel about the church itself?

Actually, Lourdes is accepted as a true apparation, but many are not…and there are a great many Catholics who place their main focus on the Sacrament and the gospels…and this afternoon I’ve actually been working hard about Mary on two threads. I don’t know if there are any answers there. One is, “My heart is rejecting the Blessed Mother”, the other, "Why pray to anyone but God?"To be truthful I don’t pay particular attention to apparations, because as a Catholic I go to daily Mass and and the first and second commandments, the gospels are my life. If you live those you’re not actually needing the extra inspirations that help people to be respond more deeply to God.

That’s not good or bad, it just is. It isn’t essential to be deeply concerned in apparitions in order to be a sincere Catholic…for some temperament plays a role, but the fact is, anyway, that any apparation even considered by the Church points people to Christ. If you’re not happy about the name of a church it’s almst irrelevant What matters in that church is the Eucharist and the sacraments, the worship and praise of God, the readings of scripture, and the spirit of community there.
 
Regarding a personal relationship with Jesus, remember that in the Eucharist we do not believe that a memorial of the Last Supper is enacted, but that transubstanciation occurs, that Jesus is therefore present body, mind, soul, and divinity.
Remember that when we receive Communion we are receiving the personal presence of Jesus.
It is also the case that in our churches, when the transubstanciated hosts are placed in the Tabernacle, we do not have God just somehow ‘everywhere’ in that church, but Jesus is equally present and real there.

You have to make time…to spend with Him there, and to speak to Him any time of day or waking night as you already do and as I do. Being Catholic does not remove a personal relationship with Jesus. If you are a genuine Catholic your relationship with Jesus is incredible real and penetrates everything in you and in your life.

There are so many Catholics like me. For instance those who set up and maintain these forums and may who visit here. I longed for Jesus and to be as He’d like me to be, as a child in Catholic schools that taught me to love Him, and I sought Him, and now, much later, I’m still focussed on Him, I love Him. When no one’s in the church I pull up a chair and be with Him and chat with Him…and I’m of a long long line of Catholics…so it’s normal Catholic to be like me, and your mother needn’t worry you or your descendents would have to lose personal relationship with Jesus just because you happened to become Catholic. God bless her!!!🙂
 
Being drawn to the sacred, and being disappointed not to find it universal…the sacredness is intrinsic, but not necessarily always evident. There have been some enormously significant events in salvation history that aren’t the least sacred in presentation. In seeking the sacred and reverential people can sometimes miss the core value of things…

Take the birth of Jesus, the Saviour of the world.
An animal shelter, a trough…no music, no warm fire, no richly embroidered garments, no comfort, just squalor.

The death of Jesus…a criminal’s death, abandoned by trusted friends, scorned and abused, tortured, dripping blood and sweat, pushing up on rough metal nails to gasp air, the only music the sound of the dying men beside Him and the mocking of bystanders

These are the two great significant events of salvation history! Yet no beautiful sounds or soothing or inspiring conditions, just hard reality.

Even the first Mass of the Last Supper, simple and without embellishment as it was, was tainted by the presence of a traitor who would sell Jesus into torture and death.
I know people want beautiful and reverential surrounding and music, but if we think upon the realities rather than the accompanying atmosphere and embellishments

we won’t throw the baby out with the bathwater!
 
I haven’t tackled all your questions but I’ve been working so hard today that I need a break! Maybe some kind sweet person will come along with more responses to some of your other questions…but you do realise, don’t you that not all ‘sacramentals’ like medals etc, and not all devotional practices are considered as central to Catholic life and belief? There is a broad specturm of response in the Church, and a whole range of temperaments, but the central reality is Christ.
 
My mother has expressed concern that if I become Catholic, my descendants will not have a personal relationship with Christ.
Reassure her that, in eating the saving Body of Christ, and in drinking His cleansing Blood, you have a more personal relationship with Jesus Christ than any other Church on earth. You then carry Him within you. And that is exactly how Jesus planned it.

As well, in worshipping Him at Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, you go and spend time in His physical presence. No other Church offers as much.

As to passing your faith on, you cannot pass on what you do not have. This applies equally to every known belief, philosophy, faith or item of learning.

Christ’s peace be with you.
 
I believe the annulment process, at least as practiced in America, has the practical effect of nullifying any moral superiority in that area.
I agree this is troubling. There is a stereotype that just about any petition for annulment is granted pro forma. This stereotype may not be deserved (as purely anecdotal testimony, I personally know of two instances where annulment was denied, but none where it was granted). But, even if the stereotype was proved true, it would mean only that some of those in authority were not properly acting in accord with established doctrine. This has happened before. The important thing is that the Church has not changed Her doctrine to shift with the winds of popular opinion (and She never will).
There are some doctrines which I have not yet been able to accept. The Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, and Papal Infallibility are three.
Hmmm… I could have written these exact same words some 20 years ago.

My wife and both converted to the Catholic Faith at the same time (without knowledge of the other’s Conversion) but for completely different reasons. My wife is a much more spiritual person than I, and she absolutely felt called by the Holy Spirit to convert. As for myself, I also felt this call, but I insist on empirical evidence.

In your CA profile you describe yourself as a student of Church history. Read what the Fathers say about the Office of the Pope (a vast body of evidence). Then read what they say about Purgatory (not as vast, yet considerable). By this time, you should be fairly well established in 2/3 of your objections. I will concede that your further studies regarding the Immaculate Conception will yield a substantially smaller body of evidence to consider, and, indeed, I entered the Catholic Church with only assent of the mind (not of the heart) to this particular Doctrine (and the Church only expects the lesser assent of the mind for ANY doctrine). Having breathed Catholic air for the past two decades, however, I have come to understand and accept this Doctrine in my heart.
There are also some modern, cultural elements of Catholicism with which I am not comfortable. One element is the emphasis on alleged Marian apparitions. It is said that these are private and people may accept them as they like, but there seems to be a rather official stamp of approval when one sees churches such as the Cathedral of our Lady of Lourdes, in Spokane, Washington, to give one example. If one, such as I, is not even certain about the truth of said apparition, how is one to feel about the church itself?
If the Church has asserted that a particular revelation may be accepted by the Faithful, there is nothing wrong with dedicating a Church in honor of that revelation. If you happen to reject that revelation (which is your right) then you are free to attend some other Parish if you object to attending a Parish dedicated in honor of that particular revelation. I’m pretty sure Spokane, WA has other Catholic Parishes.
There are also a number of practices which I find rather strange. Beliefs that if one wears a certain item, one will be saved from Hell
Ah, the great “hoax” of the Brown Scapular of Mt. Carmel. Every chance I get on this Forum, I attempt to dispel the hoax of this silly “promise” (for example, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=296864). This is pure superstition, with no basis in fact, doctrine, or history. Yet, it persists. Never let it be said that Catholics cannot be seduced by superstition!

If anyone believes that wearing a patch of cloth around his neck will somehow save him from hellfire if he dies in a state of mortal sin – this person is a superstitious fool. It will not matter a fig on Judgment day if you die in a state of mortal sin with a patch of cloth about your neck. Our Lady has no power to pull you from hellfire (nor would She want to).

Unfortunately, millions of these scapulars have been minted with this bogus “promise” on the obverse. This leads to a superstitious and false sense of security for Catholics, and serves as an impediment to conversion for thoughtful non-Catholics.

In defense of the Catholic Church, I can only offer the (lame) excuse that the Church has never actually endorsed this hoax (only certain influential historical Carmelites). Yet, the fact that the Church allows this hoax to perpetuate without sanction is an embarrassment to all Catholics.
There is also a sense of disillusionment, I suppose. The sense of glory as I attended a very reverent mass at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Savannah, Georgia
My dear brother (also a Convert) was ordained to the Priesthood in this very Cathedral (my brother is FatherEric.com). I know of what you speak, having myself come from a “traditional High-Anglican” background.

As a newly-minted Catholic, I was originally reluctant to receive Communion at the hands of a layperson (a “Eucharistic Minister”). At that time, I “jumped in line” to receive from the priest. But, one Sunday, while preparing to “jump line,” I heard a strong voice that said, “TRUST MY CHURCH.” It is the first and only time I have ever heard such a voice.

But I have never needed to hear it a second time. I now understand that the Catholic Mass, as practiced in many Parishes, completely lacks the dignity and reverence which it so rightly deserves (and which is fully possible in a Novus Ordo Mass). Yet, in all places and in all times, this IS the Mass of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Now, thanks to this Grace, I can attend Mass in the most banal or absurd parish and still rejoice.

I hope you may also receive this special Grace to recognize Truth and Grace even when it is housed in an animal’s feeding tough.
 
Wow - So much to address.
Fist of all let me commend you on your desire to investigate the Church’s teachings further. may God continue to Guide you into His Church. I’ll try to address some of the things you bring up in your post…
…
I have been investigating Catholicism for several years, and there is much about it that I find very compelling. The moral stands of the Church, in particular, are particularly admirable. In fact, it is the Catholic Church’s position on contraception that tends to make me favor the Catholic Church over the Orthodox. I would add the prohibition on remarriage after divorce, but I believe the annulment process, at least as practiced in America, has the practical effect of nullifying any moral superiority in that area.
There are a number of people who agree with you in this. I too wonder if maybe too many are granted. (Actually I have recieved a decree of nullity myself) However -
  1. The Church has the power to “Bind and Loose”
  2. The Church has set up a fairly comprehensive system of review and each case is handled quietly and on it’s own merits.
  3. So long as we accept the decision of the Tribunal we remain in God’s graces
  4. If the Tribunals themselves are acting contrary to Church Law, God will punish them the corrupt members.
I also admire the Church from a cultural point of view. I love the beauty and the wonder of the liturgy and the art and the music. I love the history, the chivalry, and even the church buildings. As someone who grew up Protestant, there is something very liberating and wondrous about being able to affirm my Western Christian heritage.
👍
As a history buff myself I can relate. I grew up catholic and still stand in awe of all the beauty that God has given His Church
And yet, I still struggle. There are some doctrines which I have not yet been able to accept. The Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, and Papal Infallibility are three. I mention them as a group, as they are not held as true by the Orthodox. There are other threads to discuss the particulars, but suffice it to say that it is difficult for me to accept that which appears to have been arrived at through speculation, rather than through a defense of that which has been held everywhere, by all, since the dawn of the Church.
I will simply make a couple quick points on this. I can honestly say that I do not understand some of the doctrines of the Church that I must accept. I accept them, however, because I accept the Authority of the Church as given by Christ. Accepting a doctrine and understanding it are two different things. I don’t understand Gravity, but I accept it’s authority over me.🙂
Also, it has been my experience that when christians of Good faith and all charity begin to discuss matters we often find that we are not that far apart and it’s just “language” or “terminology” or other “nuances” that are getting in the way. Thus it can be that the Orthodox and Catholic Church can disagree with each other on particulars, but if you dig a little you’ll probably find that there is much similarity in core understandings.
There are also some modern, cultural elements of Catholicism with which I am not comfortable. One element is the emphasis on alleged Marian apparitions. It is said that these are private and people may accept them as they like, but there seems to be a rather official stamp of approval when one sees churches such as the Cathedral of our Lady of Lourdes, in Spokane, Washington, to give one example. If one, such as I, is not even certain about the truth of said apparition, how is one to feel about the church itself?
You are right. The Church does give it’s “Official Stamp of Approval” to certain apparitions. It also witholds approval from others. There is a rigorous investigation into any apparition before the Church will “endorse” it. This includes both physical investigation (what happened) as well as theological investigation (what was communicated)
As for Churches being named for whatever, the best advise I can give is that one goes to Church to be in God’s house to visit with him. We can visit with whomever we wish when we are there. The Father, Jesus, Mary, or the saints. It’s up to you.
There are also a number of practices which I find rather strange. Beliefs that if one wears a certain item, one will be saved from Hell; or that, if one prays prayer X, Y times, then Z people will be sprung from Purgatory are completely foreign to my way of thinking.
With these kinds of things just be patient with yourself. As you say they are foriegn to your way of thinking. How you were brought up. However these things are not really core issues. You need to come into the Church because you are convinced that She is THE church that Christ founded and therefore carries Christ’s authority and protection. Once this question is answered to your satisfaction the other things become easy, you either chose to use them (scapulars etc) or not

(cont)
 
There is also a sense of disillusionment, I suppose. The sense of glory as I attended a very reverent mass at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Savannah, Georgia, has not quite been repeated elsewhere, with guitar-playing musicians singing modern Protestant (or Protestant-like) worship songs. I am not drawn to Catholicism because it is like Protestantism. I am drawn to the sense of the sacred, which is so often not present in Protestant churches.
I quite agree!!! Fortunately my parish is “middleroad” and doesn’t get to “folksy”. But what I really like is when I’m able to attend a Latin Mass. Sometimes referred to as the TLM or the EF (Traditional Latin Mass or Extraordinary Form). Talk about Beautiful - It lifts my heart more than any other. Of course because it is Latin and is quite different from the OF (ordinary form) it takes a little time to become familiar with it. Howeverr, if you love history and Beauty I Highly recommend you check ths option out. Just make sure that the Mass is a licit one. That is, it is in full communion with Rome.
Finally, there is a family issue. My mother has expressed concern that if I become Catholic, my descendants will not have a personal relationship with Christ. She believes that I will bring up my own children to personally love Jesus, but she is concerned that, as time passes, my grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc., will experience a cultural religion that has no effect on their hearts.
No one can know what will happen in the future. All you can do is assure your mom that your journey into the Church is bringing you more cloesly and intimately related to Christ. That you will pass that Love on to your children and that, hopefully, they will pass it on to theirs.
Just be as devout and loving a person as you can be and your mother will be content I’m sure.
Perhaps some of you have something to say that will help me through some of these issues. If nothing else, there is much to be said for a good discussion.
God bless!
Hear Hear
Hope you get the help you need.
God Bless you

Peace
James
 
There are also some modern, cultural elements of Catholicism with which I am not comfortable. One element is the emphasis on alleged Marian apparitions. It is said that these are private and people may accept them as they like, but there seems to be a rather official stamp of approval when one sees churches such as the Cathedral of our Lady of Lourdes, in Spokane, Washington, to give one example. If one, such as I, is not even certain about the truth of said apparition, how is one to feel about the church itself?

There are also a number of practices which I find rather strange. Beliefs that if one wears a certain item, one will be saved from Hell; or that, if one prays prayer X, Y times, then Z people will be sprung from Purgatory are completely foreign to my way of thinking.

There is also a sense of disillusionment, I suppose. The sense of glory as I attended a very reverent mass at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Savannah, Georgia, has not quite been repeated elsewhere, with guitar-playing musicians singing modern Protestant (or Protestant-like) worship songs. I am not drawn to Catholicism because it is like Protestantism. I am drawn to the sense of the sacred, which is so often not present in Protestant churches.

Finally, there is a family issue. My mother has expressed concern that if I become Catholic, my descendants will not have a personal relationship with Christ. She believes that I will bring up my own children to personally love Jesus, but she is concerned that, as time passes, my grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc., will experience a cultural religion that has no effect on their hearts.

Perhaps some of you have something to say that will help me through some of these issues. If nothing else, there is much to be said for a good discussion.

God bless!
TIP I must say I admire the seriousness of thought you have put into your consideration to becoming Catholic. You have a few hurdles yet to overcome but I think you know in your heart that there is nothing else on the planet (with the possible exception of the Orthodox) who come close to the deep spirituality and holistic and consistent message and legacy of The Catholic Church. If you knew nothing else - the observation of long established apostolic succession going back unbroken for 2,000 years gives a testimony of correctness and staying power and a very easy to accept credibility and pedigree that is unmatched. The Catholic Church is older than most current nations and governments.

On your concerns:
The anullment process is not something that you need to worry too much about if you believe as the Church Teaches in a sacramental marriage. We Catholics simply marry for life and unless there is a defect in the marriage (misrepresented their prior marriage status, not really Catholic etc.) or there is a very compelling reason to grant an anullment its not a thing one should be worried about. I know of no other Church on the planet who has a strict requirements and procedures in place as do Catholics. Have some abuses been present in the past? No doubt yes - but let’s not forget that it was the strictness of Catholic belief in the sanctify of marriage and the church’s refusal to cave into government interference on dictatings its precepts that led to the Anglicans being lost and placed under the tyranny of monarchical secular whim. Clearly, the church could have done the easy thing and granted a divorce to Henry VIII if it did not believe in the sanctity of marriage rather than suffer that severe loss.

The Marian doctrines are not so hard to accept once you see the depth and very rich multi-dimensionalism of Catholic spirituality. We get it all from scripture and from true illuminative enlightenment from the Holy Spirit as well as progressivly from The Church’s own traditions handed down from the early church. As far as papal infallability goes - note that there have not been very many ex-cathedra statements made over the centuries and if one looks at what we have today for dogma it is all quite “rational” really when you look at it all holistically.

Spend a year in Catholic formation praying earnestly, reading scripture, and ECF and I assure you that you will be enlightened and be able to accept it all. Don’t rely just on intellect - go with “the promptings of the Holy Spirit”.

Also, start visiting some of the Catholic Shrines or just sitting in silent adoration before the Eucharist. I am hearing some pretty amazing accounts of people converting as a result of actually experiencing an inner call in conjunction with experiencing real miraculous events which I am not permitted to go into here by forum rules.

Don’t get too wrapped up in private revelations. The Church researches them very thoroughly and only the most plausible ones that have messages consistent with scripture and church teaching make it into the popular devotionals. Even though there are some very compelling revelations (e.g. Lourdes, Fatima and Guadelupe) The Church does not really “push” these per say. They just get “embraced” by the laity as the facts and circumstances become so credible that they they become almost a certainty in the hearts and minds of the faithful. What shrines that are devoted to them are usually sponsored by individuals contributing financial support to a religious order who has elected to sponsor the dedication of a new church and The Church proper just blesses and consents to it. The liturgy of the mass remains the same and does not change to accommodate the revelation - although the general tenants of the message (e.g. the urgent need for penance in the Fatima messages) might certainly find its way into a priest’s homily - as it might anyway since its all part of the gospel.

James
 
TIP I must say I admire the seriousness of thought you have put into your consideration to becoming Catholic. You have a few hurdles yet to overcome but I think you know in your heart that there is nothing else on the planet (with the possible exception of the Orthodox) who come close to the deep spirituality and holistic and consistent message and legacy of The Catholic Church. If you knew nothing else - the observation of long established apostolic succession going back unbroken for 2,000 years gives a testimony of correctness and staying power and a very easy to accept credibility and pedigree that is unmatched. The Catholic Church is older than most current nations and governments.

On your concerns:
The anullment process is not something that you need to worry too much about if you believe as the Church Teaches in a sacramental marriage. We Catholics simply marry for life and unless there is a defect in the marriage (misrepresented their prior marriage status, not really Catholic etc.) or there is a very compelling reason to grant an anullment its not a thing one should be worried about. I know of no other Church on the planet who has a strict requirements and procedures in place as do Catholics. Have some abuses been present in the past? No doubt yes - but let’s not forget that it was the strictness of Catholic belief in the sanctify of marriage and the church’s refusal to cave into government interference on dictatings its precepts that led to the Anglicans being lost and placed under the tyranny of monarchical secular whim. Clearly, the church could have done the easy thing and granted a divorce to Henry VIII if it did not believe in the sanctity of marriage rather than suffer that severe loss.

The Marian doctrines are not so hard to accept once you see the depth and very rich multi-dimensionalism of Catholic spirituality. We get it all from scripture and from true illuminative enlightenment from the Holy Spirit as well as progressivly from The Church’s own traditions handed down from the early church. As far as papal infallability goes - note that there have not been very many ex-cathedra statements made over the centuries and if one looks at what we have today for dogma it is all quite “rational” really when you look at it all holistically.

Spend a year in Catholic formation praying earnestly, reading scripture, and ECF and I assure you that you will be enlightened and be able to accept it all. Don’t rely just on intellect - go with “the promptings of the Holy Spirit”.

Also, start visiting some of the Catholic Shrines or just sitting in silent adoration before the Eucharist. I am hearing some pretty amazing accounts of people converting as a result of actually experiencing an inner call in conjunction with experiencing real miraculous events which I am not permitted to go into here by forum rules.

Don’t get too wrapped up in private revelations. The Church researches them very thoroughly and only the most plausible ones that have messages consistent with scripture and church teaching make it into the popular devotionals. Even though there are some very compelling revelations (e.g. Lourdes, Fatima and Guadelupe) The Church does not really “push” these per say. They just get “embraced” by the laity as the facts and circumstances become so credible that they they become almost a certainty in the hearts and minds of the faithful. What shrines that are devoted to them are usually sponsored by individuals contributing financial support to a religious order who has elected to sponsor the dedication of a new church and The Church proper just blesses and consents to it. The liturgy of the mass remains the same and does not change to accommodate the revelation - although the general tenants of the message (e.g. the urgent need for penance in the Fatima messages) might certainly find its way into a priest’s homily - as it might anyway since its all part of the gospel.

James
Nice job James
 
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