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jeannetherese
Guest
Is there a quote by Pope Benedict saying that the TLM is a compromise?
It would be helpful to see the sourcew for this contention.
May God bless us all. Amen.
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It would be helpful to see the sourcew for this contention.
May God bless us all. Amen.
J
jeannetherese
Guest
Is there a quote by Pope Benedict saying that the TLM is a compromise?
It would be helpful to see the source for this contention.
May God bless us all. Amen.
K
Kevin12
Guest
I have no problem with the EF at all, because it is a Mass like any other. But when you defend the people on Fish Eaters by saying it is no wonder they do what they do when traditionalists are apparently so persecuted, you are implicitly condoning a behavior that far surpasses in evil whatever abuses there may be in the NO.But who says it’s ok on this thread? Are you saying that* I *think it’s OK? Have you read my first post on this thread? I don’t think traditionalists should run to these people. I am not with these people, and people from my FSSP parish were not. Why are you insisting that we are all mad anti-Semitic bigots?
What is the real problem that you have with the EF mass?
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Kevin12
Guest
I wrote out a long response, but I realized there was no point. I guess I just hope that guy was wrong.
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
Oh, no you don’t buddy, you are not going to twist this
Listen. I’m not saying that it is the same thing when people get angry and frustrated and defensive in the traditionalist camp, and when some of them say nasty things about the Jews and fellow Catholics. I keep repeating that most traditionalists are nice and sane people who just like the EF mass. Like me. Some people - the ones you quote, for example - are not representative of the wider traditionalist sentiment. You are desperately trying to make it seem so, but that is not the case. The reason you can’t prove it is because you have never even been to an EF mass, let alone have had an experience of being in a traditionalist parish.
To sum up, this is a very silly argument you are trying to make and I will not participate in it any further. If you are insisting that I am defending anti-Semitism because I sad that many traditionalists feel frustrated and angry about the church and that some go onto the internet and make their feelings public, then you are making things up and I will not stand for it.
God bless ya
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Gliggle
Guest
God loves hope
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Sirach2
Guest
That’s quite a spin there, Contra. I invite you to read his words throughout this thread which have no sentiments against “wider traditionalists” as you attempted to prove. I would appreciate your correcting the false picture you tried to paint.
Kevin’s O.P. [Against] those who call people who attend the Novus Ordo mass **Neo-Catholics **
**
- [Against] NO is full of abuses - and one of them even considered not preaching about the evils of contraception and homosexuality in every Mass an abuse - and those who attend it are modernists. [Another slurring nickname]
- I just want to make it clear that **I do not mean all traditionalists. **
- I have no trouble with the EF at all.
- I think there are plenty of good traditionalists.
- I think that most of the people I read the messages of on Fish Eaters were not SSPX or sede.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
From Cardinal Sean O’Malley’s Blog.
Cardinal Sean O’Malley had explained to the media that it was a compromise with SSPX for the full use of the Mass.
I know, that Pope John Paul II allowed for the TLM, when approved by various orders and groups.
However, Pope Benedict XVI removed the restriction and allowed full us, without previously required permission.
Again, it was a compromise to SSPX and trads saw this as opening the door to bring back the TLM as the ordinary format, and we saw the post in this forum and others which
expressed that desire.
FYI, calling a poster ignorant is a violation of CAF rules.
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
FYI, I have no problem with the TLM, which is the extraordinary format.
This isn’t the issue at all.
The issue is that those so-called traditionalists who have attacked the NO as being watered down and those who attend as being less Catholic than they are.
This has been an issue with anyone experienced in dealing with traditionalist who attend the TLM., I have experience with members of the SSPX going back over 20 years, and they were very nasty, even in a protestant forum where they attacked me for supporting the false Pope John Paul II.
It may not be the majority, I don’t know, I have no experience with the majority, but only those who post in this and other Catholic forums and they are not open and respectful to the majority of Catholics attending the NO in their own parishes.
They have been nasty with Pope Francis, and he has to be a thorn in their side.
Jim
This isn’t the issue at all.
The issue is that those so-called traditionalists who have attacked the NO as being watered down and those who attend as being less Catholic than they are.
This has been an issue with anyone experienced in dealing with traditionalist who attend the TLM., I have experience with members of the SSPX going back over 20 years, and they were very nasty, even in a protestant forum where they attacked me for supporting the false Pope John Paul II.
It may not be the majority, I don’t know, I have no experience with the majority, but only those who post in this and other Catholic forums and they are not open and respectful to the majority of Catholics attending the NO in their own parishes.
They have been nasty with Pope Francis, and he has to be a thorn in their side.
Jim
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Kevin12
Guest
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
It has been relatively recent phenomenon that priests have started voicing their concern about the new mass. I’ve been following Catholic blogs for some 4-5 years now as well as other online Catholic news sources and I have noticed that it is not longer such a taboo to question things that have followed the so-called ‘spirit of V2’, which includes the liturgy. I think we will see more of that, and hopefully this will lead to more clarity about how the mass should be celebrated according to the original plan.
So to say that the mass has been watered down could perhaps be seen as a criticism that can direct us towards improvement: to the way that the new mass ought to be celebrated. (The new English translation, for example, can be seen as a part of this: an improvement and return to the original text.) Because to claim that what we have now in most parishes is what was envisioned during the V2 is simply not true. The problem is that most Catholics don’t know that and feel personally insulted when they encounter such criticism. I used to feel the same way. But then I did some research and went to the old mass and was shocked by what I found.
So yes, I agree with those who think that the mass has indeed been watered down. It is tragic that this has happened. I am under no illusion that the church will return to celebrate the EF exclusively, although that would be my preference. I just hope that one day we will have the NO as it was intended to be celebrated. Is that such a bad thing?
As to the way that this sentiment is expressed, this is a different issue I believe. No group of people is spared pettiness and immaturity, and the way we communicate on the internet can bring out the worst in us.
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Kevin12
Guest
I wrote and deleted another long reply, but I will just say that whatever the case is with the NO, the obsession of many traditionalists with liturgical purity has not in my mind made them any more Christlike or made the Church more what Christ wanted it to be - I think the opposite is true. I don’t know if is this makes me a Protestant in heart, but the situation sounds like exactly what Jesus said when he spoke of straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel.
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
Kevin,
lex orandi, lex credendi. The mass is central to our faith. It matters how we celebrate it. This is not a question about purity and aesthetics, but about things that are essential to our faith. Unfortunately, people often see the traditionalist view as one of empty, superficial aesthetics of an elitist group that has a thing for Latin.
If you are open to reading about why this matters, I suggest a wonderful book by Ratzinger called Spirit of the Liturgy. I found it very inspiring and informative. It explains, among other things, how church architecture, music and gestures used during mass have a deep theological meaning, and that we shouldn’t mess with them because the meaning then gets obscured. This book should be read by all Catholics because it is not about pinning the EF against the OF, but about understanding why these things matter, and in doing so it helps us understand the mass better in its complexity (both EF and NO).
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Sirach2
Guest
You make the mistake as many others have done, of putting a Cardinal’s private and personal opinion in the light of an ExCathedra statement. Many clergy have stated that whatever a person opines prior to the papacy does not automatically elevate to the status of ecclesiastical law. It remains, simply, his personal opinion.
It is offensive to imply that the Mass celebrated by the UNIVERSAL Church is not on a par with the Old Tridentine liturgy. This was evident in your few posts, but not surprising, since you are in the same category of all the web trads I have had read … elitist, condescending, and clearly trying to change everyone to your way of thinking.
As Kevin said, it is useless to debate this, since it always winds up the same way –
mad trads will never change their M.O.
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
I have not implied that his book is an ExCathedra statement. It is a good book. That’s all. Maybe the poster that I recommended it to would find it helpful and interesting.
Your personal attack on me is offensive and uncalled for. I am engaging in a discussion on a topic that is important to me. As it happens many people have not been to an EF mass and thus have nothing to base their opinion on, except a few crazies on the FishEaters forum. I think your comment reveals the venom that is directed toward people who prefer the old rite and happen to have an opinion on these things.
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
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Sirach2
Guest
Your prior post indicates that it is so important to understand these things theologized in Ratzinger’s book, as though the people who celebrate differently than you do in the EF are doin’ it all wrong. Yes, that is elitism. Perhaps after everyone reads the book at your suggestion, you believe they will automatically storm Rome petitioning for a TLM.
The venom is directed to the “character” of trads [not the person]. They usually cannot rest with anyone else liking the OF and waste no little time trying to proselytize them. It is wonderful to hold your own opinion, but kindly give the rest of us the privilege to do the same, without being admonished with “lex orandi, lex credendi,” as though we don’t have a clue what worship really should be like. IOW, only the EF has the correct and superior worship, IYHO.
As for not having been to an EF mass, you are entirely mistaken. I was raised with it since my first Holy Communion for about 20 years prior to the OF and I attended it daily in Catholic school. I would never want to go to another one again while I live.
Contrary to Ratzinger’s idealism, I believe the new mass is far superior to the TLM. You should do a poll here to see how many disagree with you.
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
What can I say Sirach2, I’m glad you have been to the EF mass, but I was engaging with another person who has not. So … No need to take it personally.
People are free to think what they like, obviously. But this goes both ways. I should be able to express my stance without being called names. If the thread is about some people who prefer the old rite but are unfortunately very uncharitable towards others, then I feel called to respond because I love the old rite, even though I am appalled by some of the things that one finds on Fish Eaters. I’m not justifying crazy statements, but I want to explain why people get defensive and angry about this. That is all.
*Of course *I would be overjoyed if more people got excited about our wonderful tradition, so suggesting an interesting read is a way of maybe making that happen. If that offends you and bothers you, that is not my problem.
People are free to think what they like, obviously. But this goes both ways. I should be able to express my stance without being called names. If the thread is about some people who prefer the old rite but are unfortunately very uncharitable towards others, then I feel called to respond because I love the old rite, even though I am appalled by some of the things that one finds on Fish Eaters. I’m not justifying crazy statements, but I want to explain why people get defensive and angry about this. That is all.
*Of course *I would be overjoyed if more people got excited about our wonderful tradition, so suggesting an interesting read is a way of maybe making that happen. If that offends you and bothers you, that is not my problem.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
The problem is that most trads have a misunderstanding of parish life, which a pastor has to deal with.
First, a trad will travel out to a parish which hosts a TLM. In fact, the majority of the people attending that Mass, don’t come from that parish, but travel from elsewhere. I saw it in my old parish, which hosted a TLM Mass.
So, they attend this Mass and yes, it’s very reverent.
But the reason has nothing to do with the format of the Mass, for I’ve attended the NO Mass many places where it was very reverent, as compared to my home parish.
The reason for reverence is the people attending.
People who go out of their way to travel to a TLM or travel to a monastery or go on retreats, take their faith at a deeper level than the majority of people back in their home parishes.
The pastor back home, has to deal with people at all different levels of faith, and in particular, he has to reach out to the youth, for they’re the future of the Church.
As a Catholic who grew up with the TLM before Vatican II, I can assure you, the reverence wasn’t there in the final days before the NO became the ordinary. People went to the priest who said the Mass the fastest and kept his homily short. For the post part, Catholics in parishes participated very little other than just sit, stand and kneel when they were suppose to, meanwhile they were either day-dreaming or praying their own prayers. A few followed the missal and read the words they barely understood.
It would be even worse if the TLM became the ordinary today, for back in the 50’s and early 60’s, people still had a sense of respect to keep quite in Mass, movie theaters and town hall meetings. No so today. The attitudes you see today would be brought into the TLM, if it were the ordinary, and it would be a train wreck.
So, enjoy the TLM while you have it, for if it goes as I’ve seen at my old home parish, it’s not going to last.
With all the people traveling in from other parishes, it interfered with the other Mass, which the majority of the members of the parish attended. Also, because of the travel distances of people attending the TLM, having refreshments after Mass as very conducive. However, the parishioners coming in for the other Masses, had no place to park. So, they moved the Mass from 8AM to 1 PM which was after the last scheduled Mass of the parish. With the time change, less people came to the TLM.
The final straw was when the only priest who could say the TLM, was arrested for stealing funds from the Parish and using them to feed his gambling addiction. He had other issues with women and left the priesthood altogether. Being there are no priests trained or willing to say the TLM, there is no Mass in the area and people must travel even further.
Jim
First, a trad will travel out to a parish which hosts a TLM. In fact, the majority of the people attending that Mass, don’t come from that parish, but travel from elsewhere. I saw it in my old parish, which hosted a TLM Mass.
So, they attend this Mass and yes, it’s very reverent.
But the reason has nothing to do with the format of the Mass, for I’ve attended the NO Mass many places where it was very reverent, as compared to my home parish.
The reason for reverence is the people attending.
People who go out of their way to travel to a TLM or travel to a monastery or go on retreats, take their faith at a deeper level than the majority of people back in their home parishes.
The pastor back home, has to deal with people at all different levels of faith, and in particular, he has to reach out to the youth, for they’re the future of the Church.
As a Catholic who grew up with the TLM before Vatican II, I can assure you, the reverence wasn’t there in the final days before the NO became the ordinary. People went to the priest who said the Mass the fastest and kept his homily short. For the post part, Catholics in parishes participated very little other than just sit, stand and kneel when they were suppose to, meanwhile they were either day-dreaming or praying their own prayers. A few followed the missal and read the words they barely understood.
It would be even worse if the TLM became the ordinary today, for back in the 50’s and early 60’s, people still had a sense of respect to keep quite in Mass, movie theaters and town hall meetings. No so today. The attitudes you see today would be brought into the TLM, if it were the ordinary, and it would be a train wreck.
So, enjoy the TLM while you have it, for if it goes as I’ve seen at my old home parish, it’s not going to last.
With all the people traveling in from other parishes, it interfered with the other Mass, which the majority of the members of the parish attended. Also, because of the travel distances of people attending the TLM, having refreshments after Mass as very conducive. However, the parishioners coming in for the other Masses, had no place to park. So, they moved the Mass from 8AM to 1 PM which was after the last scheduled Mass of the parish. With the time change, less people came to the TLM.
The final straw was when the only priest who could say the TLM, was arrested for stealing funds from the Parish and using them to feed his gambling addiction. He had other issues with women and left the priesthood altogether. Being there are no priests trained or willing to say the TLM, there is no Mass in the area and people must travel even further.
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Well, if you referring to me, I too grew up with the TLM before Vatican II. I attended many, and would not want to go back.
Also, I’ve attended the NO said in Latin, at the local Benedictine Monastery. I even went out and purchased the Roman Missal so I could follow along. It was beautiful, but a hassle merely mimicking the Latin words, while look across to the other page to see what the words meant. Thankfully, they only celebrated the Mass in Latin, on Thursday. The rest of the week the parts were in Latin, but the rest was in English. They also did the same with the Liturgy of the Hours. After Mass, they went right into Terce, and on Thursday, it was all in Latin.
So, don’t assume that those of use who don’t want to go backwards, are speaking out of ignorance.
Also, I’ve been on the internet for over 25 years and have debated members of SSPX before, when they had rejected all the Pope’s going back to Pius X. It’s in fact how they chose the name, SSPX. They soon changed that when they realized they were wrong about the legitimacy of the elected subsequent popes and now blame others for that stand.
Jim
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