Difficulty with one of The Church's Teachings

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BornInMarch

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I am a Catholic; I was baptized, I go to Church, I pray to God, I try to do right by others, and I believe that The Papacy was created by Jesus when he handed Saint Peter the keys to Heaven and Earth.

However, I disagree with some of The Church’s Teachings (specifically, the idea that Good People go to Hell).

It is not I am rebellious or that I like being difficult, nor is it because I dislike The Church or have any ill will in my heart for God, and it is certainly not out of any other form of malice. I disagree with this idea because it is downright terrifying and goes against the idea of God being just, merciful, just/fair, or even good. If you think I am thinking or doing something wrong, then bare in mind I am not choosing what bothers me.

I’m not sure I would call this a crisis of faith (I still believe in God and The Catholic Church no matter what), but it is a difficulty.

According to Church Doctrine, anyone who dies with an confessed mortal sin is automatically going to go to Hell. Regardless of how much control the person in question had over the situation (even if it was NO control) or of how many good works the person did in his life. A man could have lead a godly life, being kind and charitable and heroic and loving in everyday life, but if he committed a single Mortal Sin then he will be dragged off to Hell when he dies. In other words, some people who do good deeds with good intentions receive NO reward for it.

This is further complicated by what The Church considers to be mortal sins. Not being a Catholic if you’ve heard of Catholicism (only 1.2 of the 7 billion humans on earth are Catholics, which means 6.8 billion humans are already doomed to eternal suffering), not going to every single mass (only 24% of Catholics even claim to attend every mass), being an atheist or an agnostic (over 14% of all humans qualify, and God’s existence might not be as obvious to them as it is to us [it hits close to hoe for me, as one of my close relatives is an atheist]), Drug Usage (most drug users are addicts, meaning they can’t stop even if they wanted to [and many of them do wish very dearly that they could stop]), and prostitution (most prostitutes are forced into this job, either through sex-slavery or through the only alternative being “starve to death”).

To clarify why it bothers me, I should explain how I see Hell. Hell is the WORST punishment imaginable. Whenever I see someone on this forum say “so and so is dammed” or “so and so will go to Hell”, I internally visualize the person being talked about getting dragged kicking and screaming into a pit of fire and being tortured. NOTHING is worse than being in Hell, so I believe that only the worst of the worst really deserve it.

I’m forced to either believe that God never lets good people go to Hell and that good works can be enough if done with good intentions, or that God is vindictive and angry (instead of merciful and loving).

If you have an explanation for how God can be loving while having a system by which even one good person goes to Hell (let 6 out of every 7 humans alive today), please try to be patient in explaining it to me.

If you too are having a struggle with this or other aspects or teachings of The Church, feel free to share as well. Everyone has questions and difficulties at one point or another, so it does not mean something is wrong with you. This thread is supposed to be a safe place.
 
I would encourage you to think about original sin. The concept that God does not owe us salvation. Jesus came specifically as the merciful solution. And He set up the church to be a way to reconcile us with God. To make us holy and worthy of heaven.
Confusion in this matter can come from incomplete understanding of salvation history.
 
Hello BorninMarch,

What is this Teaching that “good people go to Hell”? I’ve never heard of it.

l know there are practicing Catholics who will go to Hell.

I also know that there are people who are non-believers or non-Catholic who will go to Heaven.

Ultimately, God decides and I believe many will be surprised by who has gone to Heaven and who has gone to Hell.
 
BornInMarch said:
I am a Catholic; I was baptized, I go to Church, I pray to God, I try to do right by others, and I believe that The Papacy was created by Jesus when he handed Saint Peter the keys to Heaven and Earth.

However, I disagree with some of The Church’s Teachings (specifically, the idea that Good People go to Hell).

It is not I am rebellious or that I like being difficult, nor is it because I dislike The Church or have any ill will in my heart for God, and it is certainly not out of any other form of malice. I disagree with this idea because it is downright terrifying and goes against the idea of God being just, merciful, just/fair, or even good. If you think I am thinking or doing something wrong, then bare in mind I am not choosing what bothers me.

I’m not sure I would call this a crisis of faith (I still believe in God and The Catholic Church no matter what), but it is a difficulty.

According to Church Doctrine, anyone who dies with an confessed mortal sin is automatically going to go to Hell. Regardless of how much control the person in question had over the situation (even if it was NO control) or of how many good works the person did in his life. A man could have lead a godly life, being kind and charitable and heroic and loving in everyday life, but if he committed a single Mortal Sin then he will be dragged off to Hell when he dies. In other words, some people who do good deeds with good intentions receive NO reward for it.

This is further complicated by what The Church considers to be mortal sins. Not being a Catholic if you’ve heard of Catholicism (only 1.2 of the 7 billion humans on earth are Catholics, which means 6.8 billion humans are already doomed to eternal suffering), not going to every single mass (only 24% of Catholics even claim to attend every mass), being an atheist or an agnostic (over 14% of all humans qualify, and God’s existence might not be as obvious to them as it is to us [it hits close to hoe for me, as one of my close relatives is an atheist]), Drug Usage (most drug users are addicts, meaning they can’t stop even if they wanted to [and many of them do wish very dearly that they could stop]), and prostitution (most prostitutes are forced into this job, either through sex-slavery or through the only alternative being “starve to death”).

To clarify why it bothers me, I should explain how I see Hell. Hell is the WORST punishment imaginable. Whenever I see someone on this forum say “so and so is dammed” or “so and so will go to Hell”, I internally visualize the person being talked about getting dragged kicking and screaming into a pit of fire and being tortured. NOTHING is worse than being in Hell, so I believe that only the worst of the worst really deserve it.

I’m forced to either believe that God never lets good people go to Hell and that good works can be enough if done with good intentions, or that God is vindictive and angry (instead of merciful and loving).

If you have an explanation for how God can be loving while having a system by which even one good person goes to Hell (let 6 out of every 7 humans alive today), please try to be patient in explaining it to me.

If you too are having a struggle with this or other aspects or teachings of The Church, feel free to share as well. Everyone has questions and difficulties at one point or another, so it does not mean something is wrong with you. This thread is supposed to be a safe place.
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Hey! Have you heard of Bishop Barron?? He made some of these videos and I think they are great! Check them out and please let me know what you think!

Part 1: Fr. Robert Barron on Whether Hell is Crowded or Empty
youtube.com/watch?v=dmsa0sg4Od4

Part 2: Fr. Robert Barron on Hell
youtube.com/watch?v=x8zhnooySk4

Part 3: Fr. Robert Barron on The Devil
youtube.com/watch?v=IED3S-vJ5AU

Part 4: Additional Commentary from Fr. Barron on The Devil
youtube.com/watch?v=vzLQHoSQhsw

These were made before he became bishop and as such it says* Fr*.
 
I have to agree with you that Hell is probably one of the most difficult Christian teachings to accept. However, I think you may be making the problem slightly more difficult than it needs to be (although it still is difficult).

One, I don’t think there is any church teaching that explicitly says that all non-Catholics go to Hell. From what I understand this topic is still under debate among Catholics on just when and where invincible ignorance applies. Some Catholics have a very strict view of it, while others are more liberal, and I don’t know of any church teaching that specifies one way or the other.

You also mentioned that the Church teaches that there are no mitigating factors in regards to mortal sin. But the fact is the opposite. One of the requirements for mortal sin is full consent of the will. So there are mitigating factors that could lower someone’s culpability to the point that it is not a mortal sin. That’s one of the reasons why the church won’t ever say that a specific soul is in Hell - we just don’t know a soul’s culpability for their sin. Some of the examples that you gave (addiction, sex slavery, etc.) would, at least in my opinion, effect a soul’s culpability.

Now, even with those two point made, the doctrine of Hell is still a difficult one to deal with. I wrote a post on in a couple of weeks ago, but it’s a bit too long to repost here. If you’d like to PM me we can discuss it further. If not, I suggest you read C.S. Lewis’ “The Problem of Pain”. He devotes a whole chapter to Hell and discusses many of the issues that you bring up, so I think it would be worth checking out.
 
BornInMarch said:
(specifically, the idea that Good People go to Hell).

Regardless of how much control the person in question had over the situation (even if it was NO control)

Not being a Catholic if you’ve heard of Catholicism (only 1.2 of the 7 billion humans on earth are Catholics, which means 6.8 billion humans are already doomed to eternal suffering),

not going to every single mass

being an atheist or an agnostic

Drug Usage

prostitution
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So the Church teaches none of what you wrote. So, whew.
BornInMarch said:
( NOTHING is worse than being in Hell, so I believe that only the worst of the worst really deserve it.
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Every one of us deserve it.

But God gave his only son so that we might have eternal life’s. That grace is a free gift. We cannot earn it, we cannot do works to gain it.

Those who reject it do indeed go to Hell becuause that is what they choose.
 
God is merciful. Only God knows someone’s heart and culpability for sin.

You asked a question. What if they had no control over their situation? You can’t commit a mortal sin without control over the situation. Culpability can be diminished based on circumstances.

That said, keep in mind that our Lord said few will enter through the Narrow Gate that leads to Life. Many will enter through the wide gate that leads to destruction.

Also read St Faustina’s Diary. One time Jesus saved everyone who was dying in the whole world because she asked Him to in Faith and had been in a state of grace praying and sacrificing for sinners. Jesus often appears to people right before they die and grants them grace to repent and see His mercy with perfect contrition.

You don’t want people to go to Hell. God does not either. He was nailed to a Cross to save us from what? Hell!

Right now He is giving you a chance to do something about all those souls falling into Hell. Be a Saint. Pray. Stay in a state of grace and gain merit so that your prayers will be more effective. Go to confession weekly and receive the Eucharist daily if possible, offering your Communions for the salvation of souls. By your faithfulness and by you attaining a degree of holiness, MANY souls can and will be saved by your prayers who would have otherwise gone to Hell forever and ever, and you will see those souls in Heaven.

Read St Faustina’s Diary. She was really hearing from Jesus.

I can’t share with you private revelations, but just know this:

If you plead with God for the salvation of a soul and you are in a state of grace, He hears you.

James 5:16
The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. 17Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months

The Church approved the revelation of St Faustina that by her prayers, our Merciful Savior saved every soul who was dying at that time.

God is Love and Mercy itself.

If you read her Diary, which our Lord commanded her to write, it will help you a lot with this. She was given a special mission - and it all is dealing with God’s mercy and our role in His plans for the Salvation of mankind.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
I would encourage you to think about original sin. The concept that God does not owe us salvation. Jesus came specifically as the merciful solution. And He set up the church to be a way to reconcile us with God. To make us holy and worthy of heaven.
Confusion in this matter can come from incomplete understanding of salvation history.
Click to expand...
But he would have come even if there had been no original sin!
 
Born, I understand where you are coming from. Some thoughts:
  1. There is a difference between what a) the Church teaches, and b) what the sin-crazed hyper-orthodox loons who make up a portion of the Church’s membership say the Church teaches. What gets regurgitated is often b), not a), particularly around this board.
  2. The Church has never said that non-Catholics are denied heaven. Further, it has never even said authoritatively what exact actions constitute a “mortal sin.” I have repeatedly “gotten into it” with people on this board when they declare, for example, “missing mass is a mortal sin” or anything else is a mortal sin. Why? Because the Church doesn’t so state, and never has. I’ve often asked posters: Post a list of exactly what are the mortal sins. They rant, but they can’t do it. Why? Because there is a strong aspect of subjectivity about it, and because no such list exists.
  3. At day’s end we are committed to God’s mercy. There’s a word you rarely see on this board: Mercy. Our God is infinitely merciful; I postulate that doesn’t sit well with some very hard-hearted people who post on this board and who see sin everywhere. Candidly, their theology is warped. It’s that simple. Why? Because to them there seems no concept of “God understands you tried your best” or any gray areas, merely black and white.
  4. Along the same lines, many folks don’t seem able to comprehend: Morality is complex. We live in a world where the police lie to suspects to induce confessions; where spies lie and steal foreign data to keep us safe from terrorism or foreign powers; where rough men stand ready to do violence to others to keep us safe also, and the like. Many folks just can’t handle this - and ought not go into police work! (I wonder how some of them function daily). They can’t handle that maybe some Jews and Protestants are in heaven.
  5. A wise man I know said something to me years ago that I think sums up heaven: He told me “God has a place in His kingdom for all those with a sincere desire to know him and to follow him.” If any disagree with that, that’s on them.
Hope it helps.
 
I think you are grossly misinformed on what the Church teaches and should get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and see what it actually teaches about your concerns. The answers to all of your concerns are in there, but you have to put forth the effort needed to educate yourself and not depend on hearsay.

I grew up in the 50’s and was never taught what you are claiming back then even.
 
BornInMarch said:
According to Church Doctrine, anyone who dies with an confessed mortal sin is automatically going to go to Hell. Regardless of how much control the person in question had over the situation (even if it was NO control) or of how many good works the person did in his life.
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Two things:

First, quick clarification. Anyone who dies unrepentant for a their mortal sin goes to hell. God is not bound by confession. If I commit mortal sin, regret and repent, but am hit by a bus on my way to confession, it is not true that I automatically go to hell. God is both perfectly just and perfectly merciful.

Second, it may help you to study up on what mortal sin is. One cannot sin by accident, and certainly not mortally. Mortal sin is that which is objectively grave matter and that is chosen with complete knowledge/sufficient forethought and deliberate consent. So if a person has no control over the situation they cannot commit mortal sin. Several of the examples you gave (of people unexposed to the truth of Christianity, prostitutes, those addicted to drugs, etc) may well not be in mortal sin because they do not freely choose to commit objectively grave matter, but are instead compelled through force or habit or ignorance to act otherwise.
 
Look. I can’t promise you a nice way forward with this. But what I can do is sort of suggest a thing here.

I mean if heaven and hell are really just natural consequences. If they’re really just the slots the souls would actually fit at death. Well then there’s got to be a whole lot less fist shaking at an unkind God and a whole lot more waking up and dealing with the here and now.

Let me give you an example. From my own life. Please.

I grew up knowing that taking drugs was wrong. That it would hurt me. In some way.

But at some point I did it anyway. At some point I was low enough to think that I didn’t care anymore. That I’d somehow make it work.

Well it didn’t work. It was instead a pretty close view of hell on earth. I mean front row seats. With no popcorn.

So what would you really want me to tell you? That nice guys who choose drugs will somehow not suffer? That nice guys who decide they can live a way that just will not work with an eternal life model will get off free of charge?

Because I think that a lot of this heaven and hell is just simple cause and effect. If you’re a nice guy. And you do drugs. You’ll have to face that music. There’s no simple off switch for that.

So if you’re a nice guy. And you let yourself get addicted to sinning. Well you’re going to have to deal with that for eternity. Because I think eternity is all about us knowing perfect truth. And perfect truth is going to demand that we watch the train wreck of our lives on HD surround. So that we can perfectly know exactly where each stray bullet we fired really went. How many people we really hurt. How many lives were hit by those ricochets. And once we face that reality. In a timeless place where there’s no undo button. Well we can only realize a hell or a heaven in that end space. We can only scream in agony or in joy. Because we’ve either made things better or we’ve made them worse. In a real way. In a permanent way.

Well that’s my take on it anyway. I hope it helps somehow. Truly.

Peace BornInMarch.

-Trident
 
Posted by BornInMarch
I’m forced to either believe that God never lets good people go to Hell and that good works can be enough if done with good intentions, or that God is vindictive and angry (instead of merciful and loving).
Click to expand...
If you have an explanation for how God can be loving while having a system by which even one good person goes to Hell (let 6 out of every 7 humans alive today), please try to be patient in explaining it to me.
Click to expand...
If God were vindictive and angry why would he send his only beloved son to be one of us, and then die a painful death on the cross? His plan was that everyone go to heaven. Christ redeemed every last person. But as everyone knows, noone can be forced to take something they decide they do not want.

I think that this happens because people become disoriented thru their crimes. They think that things in this world are what they are missing and the more they indulge in them, then they think the happier they will be.

But we know that is is unfortunate and not the case at all. And God sent his Son into the world to show and teach the world that this simply isn’t the case. And to show them the way to what will make them happy. But then in the end, it is up to the individual to accept this or go their own way. And we know just from the newspapers that many are just going their own way. So they come to think that God’s teaching is a bunch of straw or not practical, and persist in this, and even develope a bad perspective of God himself. And so in the very end, what will they choose … their own way or God’s? I think you know.

I’m not convinced about the numbers of those going up or down. Is it really that important? Even one going down is too many. But we need to do is to pray for those who don’t know better or those who don’t care. Show mercy and charity for them by praying that God will in some way touch them to turn their life around. That idea will make good use of what we know and a blessing for them as well as ourselves. This is the idea that is presented in total consecration to Mary.
 
Neofight said:
But he would have come even if there had been no original sin!
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Not necessarily…and certainly not for the same reason or in the same way.

In the garden God walked with man. That’s how it would have been forever had we not fallen.
 
Trident_H said:
Look. I can’t promise you a nice way forward with this. But what I can do is sort of suggest a thing here.

I mean if heaven and hell are really just natural consequences. If they’re really just the slots the souls would actually fit at death. Well then there’s got to be a whole lot less fist shaking at an unkind God and a whole lot more waking up and dealing with the here and now.

Let me give you an example. From my own life. Please.

I grew up knowing that taking drugs was wrong. That it would hurt me. In some way.

But at some point I did it anyway. At some point I was low enough to think that I didn’t care anymore. That I’d somehow make it work.

Well it didn’t work. It was instead a pretty close view of hell on earth. I mean front row seats. With no popcorn.

So what would you really want me to tell you? That nice guys who choose drugs will somehow not suffer? That nice guys who decide they can live a way that just will not work with an eternal life model will get off free of charge?

Because I think that a lot of this heaven and hell is just simple cause and effect. If you’re a nice guy. And you do drugs. You’ll have to face that music. There’s no simple off switch for that.

So if you’re a nice guy. And you let yourself get addicted to sinning. Well you’re going to have to deal with that for eternity. Because I think eternity is all about us knowing perfect truth. And perfect truth is going to demand that we watch the train wreck of our lives on HD surround. So that we can perfectly know exactly where each stray bullet we fired really went. How many people we really hurt. How many lives were hit by those ricochets. And once we face that reality. In a timeless place where there’s no undo button. Well we can only realize a hell or a heaven in that end space. We can only scream in agony or in joy. Because we’ve either made things better or we’ve made them worse. In a real way. In a permanent way.

Well that’s my take on it anyway. I hope it helps somehow. Truly.

Peace BornInMarch.

-Trident
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Great post! Really great post! 👍:clapping::clapping:
 
BornInMarch said:
If you have an explanation for how God can be loving while having a system by which even one good person goes to Hell (let 6 out of every 7 humans alive today), please try to be patient in explaining it to me.
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John 3: 16-17

The true Catholic Church has never denied John 3: 16-17.

John 3: 16-17 is the explanation you are seeking.
Link: usccb.org/bible/john/3

16
For God so loved the world that He gave* His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life.k

17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn* the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.l
 
I believe that even un-confessed mortal sins CAN
be forgiven if you have perfect contrition for them
before you passed away, God sees the heart and
a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart he will
NOT despise(Ps. 51:17) The Church’s sacraments
are there to infuse God’s grace into our lives, so
WE DO need the Church to help us get saved, but
not necessarily in SOME cases, where a person
doesn’t have access to the Church’s sacraments.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Can you explain that please.
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The incarnation was not merely a corrective measure, but primarily an act of love by the Father, so the Son would have been sent to dwell with man regardless of the human condition.
 
(While I agree with you on how a great person would not go to hell because on one mortal sin) from what I read, at the end of the day, God knows if you truly meant to mortally sin and offend him. The catechism also mentions Culpability on things such as age, maturity, addiction, etc

God is Merciful, I even read that he lets us repent as we die

and remember in the Hail Mary? "Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death"

What I get out of that(I may be wrong) is that we are praying to her that we have a chance at repentance before we die even at the hour before it.
 
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