Digging into faith

[rheins2000]

AlanFromWichita:

Perhaps you misread. You said different people can come to very different conclusions. My point was that the claim of infallibility of the Pope has not reduced the degree to which different people come to different conclusions.

Completely false…the entire mystical body of Christ united in submission to the authority of the Catholic Church come to the same conclusion as the Pope for a start.

AlanFromWichita:

Maybe you know more about Church history than I. Was the Roman Catholic Church not responsible for the Spanish Inquisition? If not, what was it that JPII apologized for? If so, did that make the Church a giant sham, or did it just make her fallible – or do you think the Inquisition was Spirit-led?.

Once again, you have not read what I have said. Ill say it clearly…THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INQUISITION. The sinful men of that time are responsible. Its like saying the Roman Catholic Church is responsible for the molestation of little boys. It is the sinful priests and bishops that commit the crimes that are responsible. Do you even know how the Church is infallible?..from the last statement, respectfully, I do not think you understand the doctrine of infallibility. JPII apoligized for the crimes that the men ‘of the Church’ at that time commited. What does that have to do with infallibility? You need to read the Catechism section that deals with infallibility.

AlanFromWichita:

So if John Kerry helped the Vatican out and was conferred a papal Knighthood, you don’t see any confusion in the Church simultaneously telling Catholics they cannot vote for him and remain in good standing because of his abortion stance? Why would the Church “reach out” to one of the most pro-abortion men on the planet while throwing Kerry out like trash when, by comparison, he is small potatoes?.

This is just anti-Catholic ranting…when has the Church thrown Kerry out like trash? The Church desires the reconciling of Kerry’s soul no less than that of anyone else on earth. The papal knighthood carrys no weight of infallibility with it. And, the Church reaches out to everyone, especially in the reign of John Paul II. Once again, as soon as you see an encyclical lettersaying that the views of this pro-abort are morally right, please present it to me. Papal knighthoods do not change the Church’s stance on abortion.

AlanFromWichita:

It would be comforting to me to think there is one person to whom I could turn who would give me an infallible answer to any important question. Unfortunately, this is not the case. I have to learn to discern what is true.

There is, and that is the case…you simply choose your own judgement over the Church’s, because you dont want to be told what to do. People only refuse to believe what is contrary to what they want to do. A king wanted a divorce, and so the Anglican Church was formed, Martin Luther wanted no law to live by and no responsibility for sins, so he broke from the Catholic Church. Every christian group there is has a direct line history to a schism from the true Catholic Church. That is historical fact.

AlanFromWichita:

Even if I did believe in infallibility of ex cathedra statements what does that tell me – that Mary was assumed into heaven? That’s great but how does that help me in a concrete moral dilemma?

Alan

Once again, every rule in faith and morals has been infallibly defined by the Church. You tell me the dilemma, and Ill tell you what page in the catechism to find it. If you refuse to ever pick up the Catechism and find what it teaches, you will never give it a chance to guide your concrete moral dilemmas. So dont tell me that it doesnt guide you in these areas, because I assure you it does.

 

[rheins2000]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear rheins2000,

When I was young I thought correcting another person was an act of love. Now I see people react to correction with hostility. Maybe they associate correction with punishment or embarrassment and therefore pain, but it seems a lot of people would rather stand in error than be corrected. I don’t understand that mentality, and I do not have a problem with you contradicting me or telling me I’m wrong. I figure one or both of us might just learn something.
Alan

It is an act of love. The definition of love is to desire that the soul of that person ends up in heaven. Have yo not read in the bible that if a man is in error, first approach him by yourself…then if he refuses to give up his sin, take with you another…then if he still refuses, take the matter to the Church. If I didn’t love you, I sure wouldnt be wasting my time writing threads to you on this website.

If people would rather stay in error, then they will be held gravely responsible for that on the day of their judgement. There is nothing I can do for them, but pray. That does not mean, however, that I should stop preaching the gospel to them.

By the way, you never answered any of my initial questions and/or statements.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

rheins2000:

Once again, every rule in faith and morals has been infallibly defined by the Church. You tell me the dilemma, and Ill tell you what page in the catechism to find it. If you refuse to ever pick up the Catechism and find what it teaches, you will never give it a chance to guide your concrete moral dilemmas. So dont tell me that it doesnt guide you in these areas, because I assure you it does.

I have a Catechism and refer to it from time to time. You are right that I don’t understand infallibility, because I’ve heard many different angles from people who supposedly know much more than I do. I understand there are only a very few things pronounced ex cathedra. Is the whole Catechism ex cathedra? If the Catechism is infallible but not ex cathedra, then why do we even have ex cathedra? Is there such a thing as “infallible” and “more infallilble?” That’s like saying “whiter than white” or “truer than true” or “I’m going to give it 110% of my best effort.”

About the thing with Kerry, my point is that we are not even allowed to vote for a pro-abortion public servant, while the Vatican bestows this “knighthood” upon an extraordinarily pro-abortion leader. You say this 'knighthood" doesn’t make him infallible, which I never claimed. Does it not put him in a position on honor? Does it not seem odd to you that the Vatican bestows knighthood on someone for whom we couldn’t even vote (if he were running for office in the U.S.) and stay Catholic in good standing in accordance with the five non-negotiables? It seems that you want so much to disagree with me, that I wonder how you can really not grasp the oddity to which I’m alluding?

Alan

 

[rheins2000]

AlanFromWichita:

Good question. Can you tell me what “selah” means? My spiritual director said the Church has not determined what it means definitively.

I could write a book on what your spiritual director does not know about the Catholic Church. Maybe you ought to add a little more to your question then what a word means…What context are you talking about?..Where does it appear?..etc.

AlanFromWichita:

Be careful, too, that when you use terminology such as “abortion” that you are clear what you are talking about. You see, what is commonly referred to as “miscarriage” and considered to be an act of God, is technically referred to as “abortion” by medical professionals. If you don’t believe me, call an ob/gyn ward and ask a nurse there. Of course, I knew you were talking about intentionally induced abortion, but charitably, when you’re nit picking over words with somebody be careful not to pick a word that can either be a grave sin or an act of God and say the Holy Spirit is divided over it…

What word did I nit pick over? Your reply is simply absurd. I can go no further.

AlanFromWichita:

I believe the Holy Spirit was given to each of us, as Vatican II confirmed, holiness is for everyone including the laity. That does not mean that every one of us has a clue how to allow ourselves to hear the groanings of the Spirit, though. That requires that we be transformed through the Word and it helps if we have a prayer life at all levels including contemplative prayer…

Vatican II never said anything of what you have just related. Do some research, dont write lies that you think the Church teaches.

AlanFromWichita:

I don’t get it. I have no idea who this Emmerich is, but from the way you speak she is not worth reading. Why would you have me read trash? Or do you find some similarity in what I have said to what she has said?..

Trash…very nice…I hope you can explain that to Christ when he asks you about one of his greatest servants, whom you threw out like trash. You’ll learn a lot by never reading anything. Protestants want to live their lives without sacrificing for others, so they mock those who give their lives to pay the debt of the sin that they have torn the Sacred Heart with. But you dont believe in sin anyway, so what am I going to convince you of.

You post no replies to any of the things I tell you, you just write stuff like this…Ill stop wasting my time then.

 

[rheins2000]

AlanFromWichita:

I have a Catechism and refer to it from time to time. You are right that I don’t understand infallibility, because I’ve heard many different angles from people who supposedly know much more than I do. I understand there are only a very few things pronounced ex cathedra. Is the whole Catechism ex cathedra? If the Catechism is infallible but not ex cathedra, then why do we even have ex cathedra? Is there such a thing as “infallible” and “more infallilble?” That’s like saying “whiter than white” or “truer than true” or “I’m going to give it 110% of my best effort.”
Alan

It is all infallible when the Pope declares ex cathedra about the Church. Everything in the Catechism is infallible.

AlanFromWichita:

About the thing with Kerry, my point is that we are not even allowed to vote for a pro-abortion public servant, while the Vatican bestows this “knighthood” upon an extraordinarily pro-abortion leader. You say this 'knighthood" doesn’t make him infallible, which I never claimed. Does it not put him in a position on honor? Does it not seem odd to you that the Vatican bestows knighthood on someone for whom we couldn’t even vote (if he were running for office in the U.S.) and stay Catholic in good standing in accordance with the five non-negotiables? It seems that you want so much to disagree with me, that I wonder how you can really not grasp the oddity to which I’m alluding?

Alan

I understand the oddity…and I dont know the situation or the reasoning behind it…but it is not an arguement against the teachings of the Church. I too was unsure why a Papal Knighthood would be given to this man…and I dont claim any fishy things going on because I just do not know…all I know is that it doesnt matter to the teachings of the faith.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

rheins2000:

I could write a book on what your spiritual director does not know about the Catholic Church. Maybe you ought to add a little more to your question then what a word means…What context are you talking about?..Where does it appear?..etc.

You must be quite an expert, as my spiritual director, and old and wise Redemptorist priest, was spiritual director and confessor to many priests in our diocese. For you to make a comment about how much you know relative to him surprises me, unless in your omniscience you know who he is. He is retired now, living in Ligouri. I’ll give you a little test; send me a PM with his name and I’ll write to him and tell him I’ve found a director much wiser than he.

“Selah” appears several dozen times in Psalms; I’m disappointed you had to ask for that clarification since you can read my spiritual director’s mind and I thought you were a great expert on the Bible.

You can find “selah” in 39 places at the following search. Just click on any result and do a page search for “selah.” I’ve heard a fundamentalist protestant preacher who says it in each of his broadcasts and asks what it means:
usccb.org:8765/query.html?col=bible&op0=&fl0=&ty0=w&tx0=&op1=%2B&fl1=&ty1=w&tx1=selah&op2=-&fl2=&ty2=w&tx2=&dt=an&inthe=604800&ady=12&amo=10&ayr=2004&bdy=19&bmo=10&byr=2004&nh=500&rf=0&lk=1&ht=0&qp=&qt=&qs=&qc=&pw=100%25&la=en&qm=0&st=1&rq=0&si=0&ql=a

What word did I nit pick over? Your reply is simply absurd. I can go no further.

The word “abortion.” You said that “if the Spirit of Truth guides you to seeing abortion as a good thing, and the Spirit of truth guides another to see abortion as an abominal sin, then the Spirit of Truth is divided against itself and a liar…AND THAT CANNOT HAPPEN.”

Then you “charitably” warned me against using the name of the Holy Spirit unless I knew exactly what I was talking about.

I tell you the truth. Many believe abortion is an abominable sin, and it is also a word that is used by medical professionals to mean any sort of loss of the baby – including miscarriage which is an act of God and not a sin by any stretch.

Before you tell me that is absurd again, you might check your facts with any medical doctor or nurse about the terminology; and I suggest you heed your own warning against shooting from the hip, because you are at grave risk here by saying the Spirit is divided. I’m sure you’ll be forgiven for if you knew the truth you would have not told me I was absurd.

(continued)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Vatican II never said anything of what you have just related. Do some research, dont write lies that you think the Church teaches.

You doubt holiness is for everyone? If you don’t believe me, would you believe JPII in an address to the Italian Carabinieri Monday February 26, 2001:

The faithful know that they are called to this task by virtue of the vocation to holiness given to everyone.

Holiness, in fact, means to live fully the Gospel virtues in the concrete situations of daily life. The history of the Italian Carabinieri shows that the heights of holiness can be reached in the faithful and generous fulfilment of the duties of one’s state.

I’m not sure what exact Vatican II documents state that; I was just repeating what Bishop Olmsted told me when I worked as a parish rep for a Synod he was conducting. I found the above affirmation by searching the Vatican web site.

Trash…very nice…I hope you can explain that to Christ when he asks you about one of his greatest servants, whom you threw out like trash. You’ll learn a lot by never reading anything. Protestants want to live their lives without sacrificing for others, so they mock those who give their lives to pay the debt of the sin that they have torn the Sacred Heart with. But you dont believe in sin anyway, so what am I going to convince you of.

As far as the book, I was just going by what you said. After reviewing it I see that I did read your message wrong.

As far as your other assertions, let me just say I’ll keep you in my prayers.

You post no replies to any of the things I tell you, you just write stuff like this…Ill stop wasting my time then.

Whatever. Suit yourself. I was taking you seriously until you supposed you knew more than a spiritual director whose identity you may not even know. Now I wonder whether you’re just being combative, and frankly I don’t know what point you are trying to make other than to try to show you are better than me. Maybe you need a pride check, dude. I know I need one, and often.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

trogiah:

While following this thread, I thought I would go back to the original quote from Scripture (from Romans chapter 14). Reading it seemed like a breath of fresh air after reading some other threads tonight.

Dear Jim,

I’m sorry for my part in polluting this thread in an argument over trifles. I’ll try to get back to the beauty of the verses you quoted and hopefully the air will clear again.

Alan

 

[edwinG]

rheins2000:

I appreciate your comments edwin, but I put my entire thread together without any anger ,Tell me what did I say that was hateful in any way? (And I certainly didnt call you any of those things.)

And, neither have I despised, judged, or condemned anyone…but simply told you the truth. And if my manner seemed to attack you, that is never my intention. The truth can anger people if they dont want to listen. If you believe you have the truth, I beg you to tell me where I am in error.

You say my partisan attitudes harden my heart, but aren’t you being partisan as well, if you never answer my questions or responses, but simply call me angry and hard of heart, because I tell you things in a manner not acceptable of everyone’s beliefs.

Hi rheins,
I am glad you do not have any anger when you put your thread together. You ask me what you said that was hateful. I have no idea what you are talking about. I said to you “I hope you are not angry” the reason I said that is because you had posted a Ps and a PPS and used block lettering. That is the reason I made that statement, which has nothing to do with hate.
“You say you certainly didnt call me any of those things” and I say what things. This is your first post to me. No post from you preceeds this post.
Where does despised, judged or condemned come from? how could your manner attack me. You have not posted to me.
You accuse me of not answering or responding. I am lost, I do not understand. Could you point me to the unanswered posts. I can assure you it would be unintentional if I did not respond to a post.
I am very pleased that you are putting your heart and soul into obeying the Holy Spirit. I too do that.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[DVIN_CKS]

rheins2000:

I understand the oddity…and I dont know the situation or the reasoning behind it…but it is not an arguement against the teachings of the Church. I too was unsure why a Papal Knighthood would be given to this man…and I dont claim any fishy things going on because I just do not know…all I know is that it doesnt matter to the teachings of the faith.

You’re right…this “knighthood coronation” has nothing to do with Church teaching. Just like the sexual abuse of minors by priests (and the cover up that followed by bishops), has nothing to do with Church teaching. HOWEVER, you can’t argue that the mixed messages that the world receives from such actions is perplexing. We seem to be a church that can’t “practice what we preach”. “Do as we say, not as we do”. I know that our church is made up of sinners and saints…that is nothing new. To say that we should not judge the church by these “sinners” is correct. It’s just that when these particular sinners turn out to be the leaders of our church…the ones entrusted with the holy spirit to guide us to all truth in her teaching of faith and MORALS, it is quite disheartening. Tell me you can sympathize with those who may have their doubts? The Catholic’s job today is to try and sift through **and pull ** the “weeds” in our garden and try and embrace the good leaders who want to heal and repair our broken church. We should all pray for them and for those who support them.

 

[bengal_fan]

DVIN CKS:

You’re right…this “knighthood coronation” has nothing to do with Church teaching. Just like the sexual abuse of minors by priests (and the cover up that followed by bishops), has nothing to do with Church teaching. HOWEVER, you can’t argue that the mixed messages that the world receives from such actions is perplexing. We seem to be a church that can’t “practice what we preach”. “Do as we say, not as we do”. I know that our church is made up of sinners and saints…that is nothing new. To say that we should not judge the church by these “sinners” is correct. It’s just that when these particular sinners turn out to be the leaders of our church…the ones entrusted with the holy spirit to guide us to all truth in her teaching of faith and MORALS, it is quite disheartening. Tell me you can sympathize with those who may have their doubts? The Catholic’s job today is to try and sift through **and pull ** the “weeds” in our garden and try and embrace the good leaders who want to heal and repair our broken church. We should all pray for them and for those who support them.

great post! i had to quote the whole thing. BTW, happy birthday.

 

[MariaG]

:bible1: Mt 13:24-30 let wheat and weeds grow together until harvest

Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to pull the weeds, but just a reminder that Christ knew there would be weeds growing with the wheat.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[DVIN_CKS]

Getting back to the original post about doubt and faith, I agree with Alan here:

AlanFromWichita:

There was a recent quote in Catholic Digest that impressed me, from theologian Paul Tillich. It was something like: “doubt is not the absence of faith; it is an element of faith.”

I agree with Tillich on this. Without doubt, one would not have a clue what faith is.

Didn’t St. John of the Cross deal with this issue during his imprisonment in Spain in the 16th century? He discribes his experience in a tiny cell where he was held as “despair”. I’m sure doubt was part of that despair. After escaping his captors he wrote Dark Night of the Soul. The despair/doubt that his soul endured is what ultimately brought him to “blissful union” with the divine.

 

[edwinG]

theMutant:

This left me somewhat confused. To begin with are you talking about doubting God (as in His existence) or doubting the Faith He revealed to us through His Church?

Well now we have double confusion.LOL I have absolutely no doubt at all in God, His love, His existance and in all of the bible in a literal sense. ( well I dont want to pull portions of revelations etc but you surely get my drift.)

To bring this back to your original question, yes, doubt - true doubt - is a sin. However, many people confuse doubt with a difficulty of understanding (If I don’t completely understand it, I must doubt it). This is erroneous. There is a saying that “a million difficulties don’t equal one doubt.” I have great difficulty understanding why Jesus instituted the Eucharist and how He manifests His divine presence in the in the form of bread and wine in such a way that the bread and wine no longer exist except in appearance. However, I don’t doubt these things at all.

Good point David, I now understand perfectly what you mean about the difference between difficulty of understanding and doubt.
On the issue of understanding the Eucharist, if you find that the issue keeps cropping up, dollars to donuts it is the Holy Spirit wanting to whisper in your ear. Satan is not that persistant on technical issues. Why dont you meditate on the issue and pray and seek an answer, fasting if you can. God WANTS you to understand.
Thank you for joining us
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[rheins2000]

edwinG:

Hi rheins,

“You say you certainly didnt call me any of those things” and I say what things. This is your first post to me. No post from you preceeds this post.

I was talking about the names Jesus called the Pharisees.

edwinG:

Where does despised, judged or condemned come from? how could your manner attack me.

umm…it comes from Romans 14, the verses that were the original point of this whole thread

edwinG:

You have not posted to me.
You accuse me of not answering or responding.

No, I just wonder why you would respond to my post how you did, but didnt answer or comment on any of the substance of the post.

 

[rheins2000]

AlanFromWichita:

You must be quite an expert, as my spiritual director, and old and wise Redemptorist priest, was spiritual director and confessor to many priests in our diocese. For you to make a comment about how much you know relative to him surprises me, unless in your omniscience you know who he is. He is retired now, living in Ligouri. I’ll give you a little test; send me a PM with his name and I’ll write to him and tell him I’ve found a director much wiser than he.)

Wait…you’re telling me you’re Catholic and your spiritual advisor is a priest!!!..well, I’m comletely wrong…but never in a million years would I have guessed that was the case from your posts. It sounded very much to me lke you were arguing the Protestant side to this thread. And if that were the case, 99% of the time my assumption(although could be wrong) is right.

AlanFromWichita:

“Selah” appears several dozen times in Psalms; I’m disappointed you had to ask for that clarification since you can read my spiritual director’s mind and I thought you were a great expert on the Bible.

First of all I never said I know everything or that I can translate dead languages from 2000 years ago. And I am not an expert on the bible…I just know my way around it slightly…enough to defend my faith, I hope. But telling me the Church can’t translate that word is nonsense. The Church has translated it, and used its translation to put together the Catechism…and what do you mean the Church can’t translate that word? I dont even understand that.

AlanFromWichita:

You can find “selah” in 39 places at the following search. Just click on any result and do a page search for “selah.” I’ve heard a fundamentalist protestant preacher who says it in each of his broadcasts and asks what it means:.

Once again, the fundamentalist protestant preacher thing has got me confused again. Because he asks what it means, the Church doesn’t know?

AlanFromWichita:

Before you tell me that is absurd again, you might check your facts with any medical doctor or nurse about the terminology; and I suggest you heed your own warning against shooting from the hip, because you are at grave risk here by saying the Spirit is divided. I’m sure you’ll be forgiven for if you knew the truth you would have not told me I was absurd.
(continued)

No, I am at no risk in saying that the Spirit would be divided by that line of Protestant reasoning. Its simple logic. Once again…read very closely…if the Spirit supposedly guides each person to the truth, and they hold 2 completely different moral views on the same subject, then the Spirit cannot possibly be guiding them to the truth…do you really not understand this?

And you know well and good what abortion I am referring to…you are the one playing with words. And I have 2 nurses in my family, and they dont use abortion to mean miscarriage…check your sources…because some quack doctor doesnt see the difference, doesn’t mean I dont. Besides, there are plenty of so called doctors out there that perform abortions…Im not going to take their wording as gospel.

 

[rheins2000]

DVIN CKS:

You’re right…this “knighthood coronation” has nothing to do with Church teaching. Just like the sexual abuse of minors by priests (and the cover up that followed by bishops), has nothing to do with Church teaching. HOWEVER, you can’t argue that the mixed messages that the world receives from such actions is perplexing. We seem to be a church that can’t “practice what we preach”. “Do as we say, not as we do”. I know that our church is made up of sinners and saints…that is nothing new. To say that we should not judge the church by these “sinners” is correct. It’s just that when these particular sinners turn out to be the leaders of our church…the ones entrusted with the holy spirit to guide us to all truth in her teaching of faith and MORALS, it is quite disheartening. Tell me you can sympathize with those who may have their doubts? The Catholic’s job today is to try and sift through **and pull **the “weeds” in our garden and try and embrace the good leaders who want to heal and repair our broken church. We should all pray for them and for those who support them.

Yes, I can sympathize with people doubting because of things like that…thats why it pains me every time a media source relates something like this. But, once again I dont know the facts or reasoning behind it, so I dont use it against the Church, because even if the reasoning was terrible, it still wouldn’t effect the infallible teachings of the Papal Successors.

And once again, for anyone out there that may not know, the leaders of the Church are only infallible when they issue infallible decrees with the acceptance of the Pope. It all comes back to the Pope.

 

[rheins2000]

AlanFromWichita:

You doubt holiness is for everyone? If you don’t believe me, would you believe JPII in an address to the Italian Carabinieri Monday February 26, 2001:

Where do you get this stuff…once again not even close to what I said…do you even read my posts?

AlanFromWichita:

I’m not sure what exact Vatican II documents state that; I was just repeating what Bishop Olmsted told me when I worked as a parish rep for a Synod he was conducting. I found the above affirmation by searching the Vatican web site.

Definately agree.

AlanFromWichita:

Now I wonder whether you’re just being combative, and frankly I don’t know what point you are trying to make other than to try to show you are better than me. Maybe you need a pride check, dude. I know I need one, and often.

Wow…combative?..weren’t you the one who called Catherine Emmerichs books trash, when I was just trying to maybe get you to read them, and asked me why I would want you to read trash? I am not trying to be combative…if my words seem like they are attacking you, I dont know what to say.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

rheins2000:

It sounded very much to me lke you were arguing the Protestant side to this thread.

It’s not surprising. I don’t necessarily try to “be Protestant” but often I have found myself in agreement with them.

and what do you mean the Church can’t translate that word? I dont even understand that.

Just that. They do not know the meaning of the word exactly. According to Fr. Pecht, they think it might have some musical or poetic connotation and frankly I forgot exactly what he said. The reason I was so interested in that word is that I specifically asked about it because of the fundamentalist preacher I misquoted …

Once again, the fundamentalist protestant preacher thing has got me confused again. Because he asks what it means, the Church doesn’t know?

Sorry – I wrote that wrong. I meant the fundamentalist preacher acted like he knew what it meant. I don’t remember exactly, but it was something to the effect of “Selah, so be it” that he said at the end of his radio broadcasts. He was on BBN, a station I listened to quite a bit when I was having a prolonged manic episode accompanied by much spiritual strangeness that luckily having a spiritual director for the first time in my life I was able to get a grip on.

No, I am at no risk in saying that the Spirit would be divided by that line of Protestant reasoning. Its simple logic. Once again…read very closely…if the Spirit supposedly guides each person to the truth, and they hold 2 completely different moral views on the same subject, then the Spirit cannot possibly be guiding them to the truth…do you really not understand this?

I understand that, but that isn’t what you said.

And you know well and good what abortion I am referring to…you are the one playing with words. And I have 2 nurses in my family, and they dont use abortion to mean miscarriage…check your sources…because some quack doctor doesnt see the difference, doesn’t mean I dont. Besides, there are plenty of so called doctors out there that perform abortions…Im not going to take their wording as gospel.

Yes, I knew exactly what you meant, but since it sounded like you were setting me up for blaspheming against the Spirit, like a cornered animal I pulled out the dirty tricks and got technical about your wording. Have you actually asked the nurses in your family? Do they work in OB wards, and if so, do they not use the terms “spontaneous abortion” and “induced abortion?” If not, then they are different than several OB doctors and several nurses at two hospitals I know of. For example, if a woman comes in to have a baby and she has one other live child, has had one miscarriage and maybe one “abortion” a long time ago, they record that she has had three previous pregnancy resulting in one live birth and two abortions.

Am I wrong on this? Is there an OB doctor in the house? I will see what other sources I can find.

Alan

 

[rwoehmke]

All I can say is wow! I tried to follow what you are all talking about on this thread and I still can’t understand what is so complicated about having Faith in God and His Church. Doubts? Who never has any? A sin? I doubt that. Reading the bible and picking isolated texts as proof texts can be very misleading. I guess Faith is Faith and once you know for sure, it isn’t Faith any longer, but it is Knowledge…