Digital realistic pipe organ vs guitars (kumbaya stuff)

[michele1984]

I think that if I couldn’t have an organ (which would be my preferred instrument when played well because I personally think it supports a congregation the best), I’d rather have a piano, which can still support a congregation if it’s not a very large church or cathedral. I like guitars if the guitarists are well-trained and aren’t just strumming or rocking out. That said the only type of guitar I like to hear in church is when it is classical playing and that usually isn’t conducive to congregational singing unless you have an amp, but even then it usually doesn’t work well for large congregations. For small ones, yes, even an amp-less classical guitar can work.

Because of Hurricane Sandy, one of the parishes I work at was out of power for a couple of weeks. No electricity, no heat, zilch. During that time, I cantored for a funeral mass and a mass for All Souls. The organ did not work and they had no piano. A violist and violinist accompanied instead. We used little clip-on lights so that we could see our music and lit candles all throughout the church. We changed up some of the music which absolutely needed the organ, like the Durufle “Pie Jesu”. Some of the mass parts were chanted in English, although the violin helped accompany the parts. The instrumental music were Bach pieces. The masses were quite moving and reverent, but again, those instruments aren’t made for accompanying large groups of people, so for the congregational hymns you had more hesitant, quiet voices rather than their normal, robust sound you would usually hear at a typical mass with the organ. You would need a little orchestra to make it work for large groups.

That’s lovely that your parish made it work. And that there were no fires! I often wish my cathedral was lit with candles, or something less bright than the slightly glaring overhead lights

The way I feel about Organ music is how I feel about what I go to Mass to experience: the Glory of God made the absolute focus and the pipe organ conveys that best for me. Maybe that’s just personal taste.

 

[superamazingman]

Where does everyone else on this forum LIVE where a guitar is somehow something hellworthy?

It’s not hellworthy, but it sure as heck isn’t mentioned by Vatican II as something to be held in “high esteem” (hint: the organ was).

I’ve NEVER attended a single Mass in my whole LIFE that didn’t have a guitar o.0

That’s sad. Very sad. You don’t know what you’re missing out on.

 

[Sarabande]

I would actually love to learn to play the pipe organ. My mother used to suggest that to me. Im thinking of pursuing it when Im finished my degree. Right now, I dont even have time to read for pleasure!!

Great idea! My husband took up theory and composition lessons, as well as formal piano and a little organ training after university and graduate studies. So, he was about 24-25. For someone who didn’t actually get into classical music and studies until college years and afterwards, he is very gifted… more so than some people I’ve worked with who have done it all their lives.

If he had more time and more confidence in his ability, I think he would have pursued organ more. He played a wedding with me once and did very well, but his stress level was through the roof as he is a perfectionist and doesn’t like to play in front of anyone (let alone get paid for it) unless he is top notch. He plays piano beautifully, but, again, will only play in the privacy of his own home or friends’ homes. With kids now and just enough money for me to pursue my professional studies in music, any kind of music studies for him has been placed on the back burner.

 

[Orogeny]

I find it interesting to read posts from those of you who are musically gifted as that is one gift that has been proven to be lacking from my list of gifts! I have especially enjoyed reading the posts by those of you who have played the pipe organ. My parish has a digital organ that sounds great to me, but our co-cathedral has a true pipe organ and they even have a concert series that includes organists from all over the world. I thought some of you who have played the instrument might be interested in some info on the organ.

pasiorgans.com/instruments/opus19about.html

I have had the pleasure of attending one concert there about 2 years ago and it was magnificent!

Peace

Tim

 

[Sarabande]

That’s lovely that your parish made it work. And that there were no fires! I often wish my cathedral was lit with candles, or something less bright than the slightly glaring overhead lights

It’s actually not my parish, but one of the parishes I work at as a musician. I do prefer that parish and the other one I work at weekly more than my true parish. The priests at both of them are wonderful in their own ways. The parish which was candle-lit was built in the late 1800s in what I think is a neo-Gothic style. It was so beautiful. The lack of electricity and heat kind of gave you an idea of what it would have been like to celebrate mass without modern conveniences. There was a stillness that you don’t usually experience. Because there was no amplificatioin for the priest, the lectors and me (the cantor), people were more quiet and still and everyone relied on the incredible acoustics the church already had, as it was originally built with that in mind.

The way I feel about Organ music is how I feel about what I go to Mass to experience: the Glory of God made the absolute focus and the pipe organ conveys that best for me. Maybe that’s just personal taste.

It is personal taste and a taste I share with you. It seems the Church also shares that taste, although I think she is also acutely aware of the difficulties in finding competent organists and affording organs.

 

[CharlesinCenCA]

One aspect I think missing from this most interesting thread is the very real evolution of not only digital technology that enables modern electric devices to mimic with 100% accuracy and clarity the physical aspects of any captured sound, but also the developments in both amplification/speaker delivery systems and acoustical modeling of both sorts, digital and physical.
The downfall of many a new church building trying to evoke a Byzantine, Romanesque or even Gothic ethos is that building materials, civic codes and creature comforts that result in the banal (carpeting) to the ridiculous (padded pews and seats) almost guarantee sonic failure once the building is consecrated. They’re still pounding out Sagrada Familia (Barcelona) and St. John Divine in NYC, but not out here in California. So, the “Church” proper is, one pastor by one, having to listen to “experts” selling these wonderful and unfathomable devices at exorbitant prices, and then hoping against hope that the PA won’t howl on opening day. It’s still a toss up out here.
But don’t sell technology short in the process.

 

[michele1984]

One aspect I think missing from this most interesting thread is the very real evolution of not only digital technology that enables modern electric devices to mimic with 100% accuracy and clarity the physical aspects of any captured sound, but also the developments in both amplification/speaker delivery systems and acoustical modeling of both sorts, digital and physical.
The downfall of many a new church building trying to evoke a Byzantine, Romanesque or even Gothic ethos is that building materials, civic codes and creature comforts that result in the banal (carpeting) to the ridiculous (padded pews and seats) almost guarantee sonic failure once the building is consecrated. They’re still pounding out Sagrada Familia (Barcelona) and St. John Divine in NYC, but not out here in California. So, the “Church” proper is, one pastor by one, having to listen to “experts” selling these wonderful and unfathomable devices at exorbitant prices, and then hoping against hope that the PA won’t howl on opening day. It’s still a toss up out here.
But don’t sell technology short in the process.

Interesting take on where Church architecture fits in! Nice to see someone who doesn’t think Im talking about the Pipe Organ button on a Casio keyboard you get at Sears.

 

[DaveBj]

Interesting take on where Church architecture fits in! Nice to see someone who doesn’t think Im talking about the Pipe Organ button on a Casio keyboard you get at Sears.

Back when I was a Baptist, I went to several “Baptist Music Weeks” at the retreat center at Ridgecrest, NoCar (near Black Mountain). The digital electronic organ companies were always well represented, and their instruments uniformly produced incredibly pipe-like sounds.

 

[CharlesinCenCA]

Thank you, Michele. Yes, companies like Ahlborn Galanti and even Roland (C-30) have always held my interest as they often produce niche products that serve very special needs situations with more than a modicum of interest in both economy and sonic integrity. To the point about product that is eschewed by pipe organ only defenders, “mimicing” authenticity is repugnant to start with. But the larger issue for them centers upon generally two fronts 1. the human factor, aka the voice is a wind driven instrument; and 2. the pipe organ, analagously powered by electrical impulse like the human voice, still remains a “truly” wind driven instrument. So, the physical principles, if nothing else, of frequency, timbre and all those factors that disturb the air remain akin and in tact in relation to the human voice. One could argue the same for saxophones and accordians, but then the caveat extolling the pipe organ in many curial documents is pulled out to a well-thumbed page.
All of this is fine and well. But as I mentioned, technology can get it right. Davies Symphony Hall in San Francisico is an oft-cited example of acoustical physics, architecture and engineering triumphing over a potential disastrous sonic dead zone. Too bad their archdiocese hasn’t really done much to improve St. Mary’s Cathedral on Geary with baffling and such. But now electronic technology and room modeling that is being integrated into acoustical blueprints at conception are real game changers sonically. They won’t ever, ever compete aesthetically, and I freely admit to conceiving of the visceral beauty of a well played wind organ and reveling in it many times in many churches throughout the world.
But, in an era as I mentioned above when constraints far outnumber benefactors (At least Bp. Brown got one heck of a deal in Orange!) church musicians should be mannered enough not to brow beat anyone who has the perseverence to go beyond Sears and Casio.
If a rector and his musician are purists, but the cost and maintenance of a pipe organ would mitigate the ability of the parish to serve in other areas of missio beyond liturgy, then let them sing a capella joyfully!

 

[CharlesinCenCA]

A couple of more points on different fronts
*Regarding guitars- I have been using Roland and Godin technology in their instruments for live application for two decades. Anyone that knows the history of guitar synthesis seriously knows that the ban “strummers not allowed” is applied to using guitar synthesis as well as the crypt church hootenanny. Again, the bugaboos with this sort of thing often don’t center upon the outcome, or aural product of this digital technology, but rather the rhetorical implications of the word “synthesizer” or synthesis. That doesn’t bother me much.
*Regarding MIDI tech and the very real ban on “recorded” accompaniment. Everyone knows that getting a piano player roll of Jelly Roll Morton banging out St. Louis Blues has been easily accomplished for well over a century. And getting digitally reproduced actuations of anyone from George Gershwin, Rachmaninov to Nat King Cole that would have “them” playing a top notch Yamaha Grand Piano with that digital player tech has been around for a quarter century. I think the Church will eventually have to come to a more realistic regard for sequencing as it relates to accompaniment for “live” human sung worship as the population of organists attrits. YMMV

 

[Tim1974]

I would rather go to a low silent mass then to a folk mass. Sometimes I attend vespers at an Episcopal church to hear good music that ‘s worthy for worship. i play the organ and thankfully at my parish the organ is only allowed. I also play the organ. When I attend services where organ isn’t’ used I notice that there is lack of reverence.I think we should worship the king of kings with the best we have. It’s good to see that the folk masses are starting to fade out as that generation is getting older.

 

[andrewstx]

I am not so sure. The church I keep referring to is very small. I think it depends a gret deal on how a parish choses to spend it’s money.

St Marys in a town with under 20.000 inhabihants has a beautiful Casavant organ, a school and a housing facility for the elderly.

The church itself is very nice with no painted plaster stautues, all the statues there with the stations are hand carved and large, and very nice.

If a tiny parish in a small town can afford a real organ why can’t everyone?

 

[Elizabeth779]

Thank you all posters – I’m an experienced protestant church pianist – (filled in Organ at time – can never call myself an “organist” but give me a slip off shoe, I can even play the pedals). I am a happy Catholic now, and have been playing for Mass. I have found this entire discussion very interesting and helpful. Thank you all posters.