DignityUSA's Altar Bread Recipe

[Patchunky]

Khoria Anna:

There was a spell in the Antiochian Orthodox Church when an older woman talked me into adding spices to the mix, but the bishop put an end to that quickly when he tasted my prosphora. He used it, but told me later to stick to flour, yeast, and water. I’ve since learned that most commercial flours that advertise “best for bread” include barley flour, which elminates them from being usable to make prosphora.

I’ve found that depending on which “branch” of the Antiochian Orthodox Church you belong to; i.e. the convert from Protestantism or immigrant church from the Middle East, also has a lot to do with the kind of bread you bake.

Here where I live, we have 2 Antiochian Orthodox churches, 1 of each variety. I’ve found that the immigrant church is much friendlier and keeps more to the pure traditions whereas the “convert” church “picks & chooses” what they want to use from the various branches of Orthodoxy: they will use Russian chant, Greek chant, Serbian chant whatever they think fits the moment.

The late pastor of the immigrant church, Fr. George of blessed memory, gave me a prosphora recipe that used ground cherry pits and rose water and it was excellent although I never used it.

 

[Khoria_Anna]

Patchunky:

The late pastor of the immigrant church, Fr. George of blessed memory, gave me a prosphora recipe that used ground cherry pits and rose water and it was excellent although I never used it.

The bishop who told me to stick to the recipe was definitely born in the old country and used to the old ways . . . the parish was almost 100% Lebanese (with some Egyptian thrown in and a small handful of converts). The original recipe I have came directly from the Greek Orthodox seminary in Brookline, Mass. and is the one taught to seminarians in their teleturgics (sp?) classes. I’m not all that familiar with the Russian traditions – perhaps additional ingrediants are allowable there.

 

[Brendan]

Here is Aquinas on the subject

ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/TP/TP074.html

Note Aquinas references Pope Alexander I (Ep. ad omnes orth. i):

“In oblations of the sacraments only bread and wine mixed with water are to be offered.”

The Church of the East is rightly permitted to use yeast and a small measure of salt, but the addition of other substances such as molassas, milk, eggs or raisins creates a resemblance to cake, not bread, and thus the Sacrament is invalid.

 

[Chalice]

Brendan:

Here is Aquinas on the subject

ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/TP/TP074.html

Note Aquinas references Pope Alexander I (Ep. ad omnes orth. i):

The Church of the East is rightly permitted to use yeast and a small measure of salt, but the addition of other substances such **as molassas, milk, eggs ** or raisins creates a resemblance to cake, not bread, and thus the Sacrament is invalid.

Commercial bread is often fortified with these things I would never confuse them with cake.

 

[Brendan]

Chalice:

Commercial bread is often fortified with these things I would never confuse them with cake.

That is one of the reasons commercial bread is also never used.

If I put a chunk of crustless Wonder next to a chuck of crustless Angelfood cake, most people would be hard pressed to recognize which one is bread.

And who would ever want to be in a position of wondering if the communion was actually the Real Presence, which is exactly what we are talking about here.

If there is a smidegeon of doubt that the validity of the matter, it is to be presumed so, for the sake of our salvation. Because otherwise, we’d be at a Mass adoring bread.

 

[Chalice]

Brendan:

That is one of the reasons commercial bread is also never used.

If I put a chunk of crustless Wonder next to a chuck of crustless Angelfood cake, most people would be hard pressed to recognize which one is bread.

And who would ever want to be in a position of wondering if the communion was actually the Real Presence, which is exactly what we are talking about here.

If there is a smidegeon of doubt that the validity of the matter, it is to be presumed so, for the sake of our salvation. Because otherwise, we’d be at a Mass adoring bread.

No. The reason commercial bread is not used is because it contains more than wheat flour and water.

Read RS below. There are many breads that contain yeast, salt, milk, sweetners, eggs, etc. that are still “commonly considered wheat bread” in our secular world.

That wording in RS is extremely unfortunate in my opinion. While most know that a pepperoni pizza cannot be consecrated, it appears that (for example) wheat breads containing wheat flour, water, salt and yeast could be baked that would still “commonly be considered wheat bread” and could yield a valid yet illicit consecration of the Body of Christ.

*[RS 48] The bread used in the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice must be unleavened, purely of wheat, and recently made so that there is no danger of decomposition. It follows therefore that bread made from another substance, even if it is grain, or if it is mixed with another substance different from wheat to such an extent that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread, does not constitute valid matter for confecting the Sacrifice and the Eucharistic Sacrament. It is a grave abuse to introduce other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey, into the bread for confecting the Eucharist. Hosts should obviously be made by those who are not only distinguished by their integrity, but also skilled in making them and furnished with suitable tools. *

 

[msproule]

Chalice:

No. The reason commercial bread is not used is because it contains more than wheat flour and water.

I think that was what Brendan wrote. Is not honey, buttermilk, salt, etc., more than wheat flour and water?

That wording in RS is extremely unfortunate in my opinion. While most know that a pepperoni pizza cannot be consecrated, it appears that (for example) wheat breads containing wheat flour, water, salt and yeast could be baked that would still “commonly be considered wheat bread” and could yield a valid yet illicit consecration of the Body of Christ.

I agree that the wording needs to be more clear in RS and the GIRM. It has certainly

However, given the current instruction, I think that Brendan’s approach to the problem makes more sense. That is, if there is any doubt surrounding the validity of the matter, one should assume it to be invalid. Why would anybody, even Dignity, want to test the boundaries on this one?

 

[Chalice]

msproule:

…However, given the current instruction, I think that Brendan’s approach to the problem makes more sense. That is, if there is any doubt surrounding the validity of the matter, one should assume it to be invalid. **Why would anybody, even Dignity, want to test the boundaries on this one? **

1.) Satan

2.) Push the boundries in *all * areas.

 

[m134e5]

Chalice:

Is that right? The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ couldn’t even be confected using bread made from one of these recipes?

Yes- that is not valid matter for the Eucharist

Chalice:

I think you might be wrong. While their use would most certainly be a grave abuse, I don’t believe it would keep the Eucharist from being confected – although I may be mistaken.

I must inform you that you are mistaken. The altar bread recipes on DignityUSA’s website cannot be used at Mass- doing so would invalidate the Mass.

Chalice:

While these bogus recipes may seem like no big deal at first glance, after a bit of study they truly seem like the work of Satan.

DignityUSA is the work of satan. The Mass is the greatest thing on earth- it makes sense that satan would attack in this way.

 

[twiztedseraph]

m134e5:

Yes- that is not valid matter for the Eucharist

I must inform you that you are mistaken. The altar bread recipes on DignityUSA’s website cannot be used at Mass- doing so would invalidate the Mass.

DignityUSA is the work of satan. The Mass is the greatest thing on earth- it makes sense that satan would attack in this way.

I must concur that these altar bread recipes are inherently evil… However I do not know enough about Dignity to make a comment on it, I must leave it to your word.

 

[amarischuk]

M134e5, did you bother to read my previous posts? Your statement that it is invalid material for consecration is ludicrous fear-mongering.

And Twiztedseraph, yes, I am glad to know that you think a bread recipe is inherently evil and prove that you along with M134e5 have no understanding of Catholic theology and philosophy.

Adam

 

[Chalice]

m134e5:

Yes- that is not valid matter for the Eucharist

I must inform you that you are mistaken. The altar bread recipes on DignityUSA’s website cannot be used at Mass- doing so would invalidate the Mass.

DignityUSA is the work of satan. The Mass is the greatest thing on earth- it makes sense that satan would attack in this way.

You are mistaken. Read RS.

I think this is Dignity’s goal right here – divide and conquer…

 

[mfundis]

It’s ironic that I stumbled upon this thread after being away from the forums for quite some time. Just this evening, our parish council had a bread tasting. Our former bread…well, I just pray that it was valid but I KNOW it was Illicit…2 of the "new: recipes were correct- wheat flour and water. The last one someone made was from the Ursuline mother house in Belleville, Illinois…it may have well been a donut! I tasted quite good, in fact…touch of honey- touch of CINNAMON- you know, like a donut. Oy Vey

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Chalice:

I went onto “DignityUSA’s” website to see their reaction to the upcoming seminary audits and the possible prohibition of homosexuals from the seminary and I found their recipes for “altar bread”:

dignityusa.org/liturgy/altarbread.html

Please note these recipes **should not be used **(because they contain more than wheat flour and water), but it does show very clearly how some horrible organizations wish to harm the Church and the celebration of the Eucharist.

This is sickening!

I wonder how many other dissident groups push this sorta garbage to possibly unsuspecting Catholics?

The scandal of using invalid matter should not be laid at Dignity’s door - it’s been going on for years. Rome wrote to the bishops in the 80s about the use of invalid matter. I don’t think Dignity can be blamed for this - it’s far more likely that they have been given bad example by bishops who ought to know better.​

Michael Davies complained of this scandal in his book “Pope Paul’s New Mass” - & that was all of twenty-five years ago.

As he points out, stipends given for invalid Masses have not been properly honoured - to keep a stipend when one has offered an invalid Mass, is theft. Quite properly, he was very indignant about it in his book - but so he should be.

Priests who offer invalid Masses, are no better than pick-pockets. And that goes ten-fold for bishops The USA clergy seem to be a pack of crooks, if this is at all typical

It’s worse than sickening - that is far too mild a word.
This is a gigantic fraud. It’s daylight robbery, of millions of dollars. Bishops who allow this, should be locked up. ##

 

[Legatus]

amarischuk:

You forget that the Mass is the reinactment of the Passover meal and when Christ instituted the Eucharist, it was part a of much larger meal (likely following the Paschal tradition):

newadvent.org/cathen/11512b.htm

I doubt horse-radish will ever be approved for the host but their is a historical precedent for a meal/feast surrounding the Eucharist itself:
newadvent.org/cathen/09306a.htm

The Mass is certertainly NOT the re-enactment of the Paaover Meal. In fact it replaces the Passover Meal and is the sacramental re-enactment of of the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[LivingByGrace]

Could someone give me the link to a good, valid recipe?

Our liturgical director wants us to start baking the bread, and in case she comes up with recipes including other ingredients, I’d like to give her a VALID recipe.

Bless you all for taking time to share - we’re all learning!

 

[Brendan]

LivingByGrace:

Could someone give me the link to a good, valid recipe?

Our liturgical director wants us to start baking the bread, and in case she comes up with recipes including other ingredients, I’d like to give her a VALID recipe.

Bless you all for taking time to share - we’re all learning!

Well, the ingredients have to be wheat and water ALONE. And it must be unleavened in the Latin Church.

If anything else is in the recipie, toss it.

Can I ask why your liturgical director feels it necessary to make your own bread. Would it not be good Christian stewardship to support the fine convents and monastaries that make good hosts for use in Mass.

That is how those religious support themselves you know.

In addition, they have years of experience in creating hosts that do not crumble easily, reducing the chance of dropped consecrated crumbs.

 

[LivingByGrace]

I know that we can only use wheat flour and water, just figured someone had it written up in the correct proportions. I can search!

Our liturgical director, wants more of the “community” to be involved with the Liturgy. At this point, regarding all the other abuses I’m “fighting”, I wouldn’t fight this change IF done validly. However, I also understand your points.

 

[emsvetich]

I am amazed that this discussion has gone this long. Unleavened wheat and water is a simple recipe. Satan is at work on what is a clear issue. Maybe this thread should be moved to Ask an Apologist so that Fr. Serpa can bring this to a definitive close with one post?

 

[Brendan]

LivingByGrace:

I know that we can only use wheat flour and water, just figured someone had it written up in the correct proportions. I can search!

Our liturgical director, wants more of the “community” to be involved with the Liturgy. At this point, regarding all the other abuses I’m “fighting”, I wouldn’t fight this change IF done validly. However, I also understand your points.

So does this L.D. think actually being at the Liturgy is somehow not being ‘involved’

Or maybe the L.D.'s idea of Catholic ‘community’ somehow does NOT include the nuns and monks of the Church.
And maybe the religious of the Church should not be involved in the Liturgy.

Sheesh! Can we all chip in and buy this person a clue?