Dilemma of authority

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Ive reached a bit of a dilemma.

I completely agree that as a christian, we must submit our will to the authority of the church. If i do not understand or believe in a teaching, it is not the church which needs to change, but it is myself that needs to change.

This leaves a dilemma concerning authority. Both catholicism and orthodoxy claim full legitimate authority in which we must submit. How is one to choose which authority to submit to if both have equal claim?
 
Ive reached a bit of a dilemma.

I completely agree that as a christian, we must submit our will to the authority of the church. If i do not understand or believe in a teaching, it is not the church which needs to change, but it is myself that needs to change.

This leaves a dilemma concerning authority. Both catholicism and orthodoxy claim full legitimate authority in which we must submit. How is one to choose which authority to submit to if both have equal claim?
God will always guide the sincere. Put your trust in Him and He will show you the way.
 
Ive reached a bit of a dilemma.

I completely agree that as a christian, we must submit our will to the authority of the church. If i do not understand or believe in a teaching, it is not the church which needs to change, but it is myself that needs to change.

This leaves a dilemma concerning authority. Both catholicism and orthodoxy claim full legitimate authority in which we must submit. How is one to choose which authority to submit to if both have equal claim?
They don’t obviously have an equal claim, which is why you must study and learn the truth. There are two users on Catholic Forums that I would recommend searching for their responses to different issues between Orthodoxy and Catholicism: Ghosty and Mardukm. Both of them are excellent on this topic.

The Catholic position is that the Orthodox have Apostolic Succession and that their traditions, rightly understood, do not contradict any truth of the Magisterium.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
Ive reached a bit of a dilemma.

I completely agree that as a christian, we must submit our will to the authority of the church. If i do not understand or believe in a teaching, it is not the church which needs to change, but it is myself that needs to change.

This leaves a dilemma concerning authority. Both catholicism and orthodoxy claim full legitimate authority in which we must submit. How is one to choose which authority to submit to if both have equal claim?
True, but only one possesses the seat of Peter. Who Jesus has identified to lead/feed his lambs /sheep.
 
The problem of succession has had an enormous impact on history dividing humanity and causing wars that resulted in the deaths of millions with wars still raging.

Neither Christianity nor Islam has a definitive answer for successorship.

But wouldn’t the answer in Christian unity be found in the Bible when Jesus spoke of there being one fold and one shepherd in the future and that ‘other sheep’ would be part of that fold?

Couldn’t that be the solution for both Christians and Muslims???
 
The problem of succession has had an enormous impact on history dividing humanity and causing wars that resulted in the deaths of millions with wars still raging.

Neither Christianity nor Islam has a definitive answer for successorship.

But wouldn’t the answer in Christian unity be found in the Bible when Jesus spoke of there being one fold and one shepherd??

In Islam I think they await the Mahdi.
Immoral people will use anything to justify immorality, even religion 😦

The Church does have a definite answer to Succession. Not sure about Islam though.

And you are right: Jesus is the answer to the division among us.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
Immoral people will use anything to justify immorality, even religion 😦

The Church does have a definite answer to Succession. Not sure about Islam though.

And you are right: Jesus is the answer to the division among us.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
Fully agree with you. There is only one Jesus so there should likewise only be one Christianity.

Jesus prophesied there would be ‘one fold’ and one shepherd. are the ‘others’ who are not in the fold the rest of humanity?
 
Fully agree with you. There is only one Jesus so there should likewise only be one Christianity.

Jesus prophesied there would be ‘one fold’ and one shepherd. are the ‘others’ who are not in the fold the rest of humanity?
I pray that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me (John 17:21).
Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
True, but only one possesses the seat of Peter. Who Jesus has identified to lead/feed his lambs /sheep.
This is a huge part of my dilemma. Both east and west ackowledge the primacy of peter and Rome.

Both Orthodox and Catholics have legitimate Claim to authority but the more that i read about church history I become more and more inclined to think that the East has maintained the true meaning of Jesus’s call and the West has over stepped by claiming the supremacy of Rome.
 
This is a huge part of my dilemma. Both east and west ackowledge the primacy of peter and Rome.

Both Orthodox and Catholics have legitimate Claim to authority but the more that i read about church history I become more and more inclined to think that the East has maintained the true meaning of Jesus’s call and the West has over stepped by claiming the supremacy of Rome.
The Catholic position is that all the Apostles inherited the Keys of the Kingdom, and that the Apostles and Bishops can excerise their powers collectively, but that St. Peter can excerise these same powers as an individual. We refuse to ignore that St. Peter received a special commission recorded in Matthew 16.

The other major problem with at least the common explanations of Eccumentical Councils today is that I haven’t found a non- arbritary way for Orthodox to indicate what Council is infallible and what Council isn’t. They appeal to the “consent of the Church” which is understood as a form of democracy (and including the laity), and ultimately undercuts their own position.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
My simple understanding is ‘one Jesus, one Bible, one Christianity’.

Christians are all one. Why allow officialdom to come in between unity? It’s a political not a spiritual division.

There should always have been only one Christianity as Christ intended.
 
My simple understanding is ‘one Jesus, one Bible, one Christianity’.

Christians are all one. Why allow officialdom to come in between unity? It’s a political not a spiritual division.

There should always have been only one Christianity as Christ intended.
But there clearly are spiritual divisions, at leat between Catholic and Protestants. Catholic and Orthodox are mostly political divisions, but the Church consists in political divisions by Her nature.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
Ive reached a bit of a dilemma.

I completely agree that as a christian, we must submit our will to the authority of the church. If i do not understand or believe in a teaching, it is not the church which needs to change, but it is myself that needs to change.

This leaves a dilemma concerning authority. Both catholicism and orthodoxy claim full legitimate authority in which we must submit. How is one to choose which authority to submit to if both have equal claim?
Perhaps we need to look at this from a different light when referring authority from the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. For instance what approaches come from both Churches that make up what this authority is? Well you have to look at the structures of both Churches to find this out. From these conclusions we can make the claim that both are right but in honesty they are very dependent on each other. Let me explain. The structure of the Catholic Church is naturally geared to disciplining. The Papacy, the Pope and the incredible detailed catechism is a reflection of this discipline structure which the Church of Rome enjoys. Now the question to ask is discipline the only authority to offer? The answer of course is no. There is another authority which needs to serve us and it is found within the structure of the Eastern Churches. The Eastern Churches are naturally geared to mentoring/nurturing. Unlike the Church of Rome which administers more towards disciplining the Eastern Churches go about their approach to nurtured, to mentored. This is why the Eastern Churches do not have a detailed catechism as do the Church of Rome. The Eastern Churches go about it, I mean teaching the faith, through a different way. The way is the nurtured or mentored approach. Now we know in the raising of any child the best way is a balance of disciplining and nurturing/mentoring. Without this balance in place there can be an unhealthy maturity which the child will grow into. Now the Churches do have these parental qualities with the Church of Rome more leaning to disciplining while the Eastern Churches lean more towards nurturing and mentoring. What we need to do is possess the best qualities of both Churches the best authorities which both Churches can give to us in order that this balance of disciplining and nurturing/mentoring is maintained.
 
Perhaps we need to look at this from a different light when referring authority from the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. For instance what approaches come from both Churches that make up what this authority is? Well you have to look at the structures of both Churches to find this out. From these conclusions we can make the claim that both are right but in honesty they are very dependent on each other. Let me explain. The structure of the Catholic Church is naturally geared to disciplining. The Papacy, the Pope and the incredible detailed catechism is a reflection of this discipline structure which the Church of Rome enjoys. Now the question to ask is discipline the only authority to offer? The answer of course is no. There is another authority which needs to serve us and it is found within the structure of the Eastern Churches. The Eastern Churches are naturally geared to mentoring/nurturing. Unlike the Church of Rome which administers more towards disciplining the Eastern Churches go about their approach to nurtured, to mentored. This is why the Eastern Churches do not have a detailed catechism as do the Church of Rome. The Eastern Churches go about it, I mean teaching the faith, through a different way. The way is the nurtured or mentored approach. Now we know in the raising of any child the best way is a balance of disciplining and nurturing/mentoring. Without this balance in place there can be an unhealthy maturity which the child will grow into. Now the Churches do have these parental qualities with the Church of Rome more leaning to disciplining while the Eastern Churches lean more towards nurturing and mentoring. What we need to do is possess the best qualities of both Churches the best authorities which both Churches can give to us in order that this balance of disciplining and nurturing/mentoring is maintained.
I agree, but I think you overemphasize the Latin Church’s emphasis on discipline. Furthermore, I think a “detailed Catechism” is immaterial to how much a Church emphasizes discipline. St. Athanasius’s Incarnation of the Word is very detailed, but I wouldn’t say he is necessarily obsessed with discipline.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
The answer is that you must pray fervently for enlightenment from God and to remain faithful to Him. Also, you should look at the signs of the Church. The Church Jesus founded was One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. From reading the Epistles it is clear that it is possible for some to separate from the Church through heresy and disobedience and that there is only One Church teaching One Faith, to be taught to all peoples. So which Church has all of these characteristics along with the ability to safeguard the Faith and the living authority and ability to interpret it? Which Church has the same basic structure as the one Jesus founded?
 
The answer is that you must pray fervently for enlightenment from God and to remain faithful to Him. Also, you should look at the signs of the Church. The Church Jesus founded was One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. From reading the Epistles it is clear that it is possible for some to separate from the Church through heresy and disobedience and that there is only One Church teaching One Faith, to be taught to all peoples. So which Church has all of these characteristics along with the ability to safeguard the Faith and the living authority and ability to interpret it? Which Church has the same basic structure as the one Jesus founded?
Excellent thought and I agree completely but the problem is both orthodox and catholic can respond by saying that they are the one true church. In fact, I had to look at your profile to see what religion you identified as because it’s impossible to know by the post.

After reading church history and thinking in depth and praying about it I fell that orthodo a have the true claim. But as a Roman Catholic I would be charged with schism for this.

So the question is, when it comes to authority, can we use logic and faith to determine who we submit to?
 
I agree, but I think you overemphasize the Latin Church’s emphasis on discipline. Furthermore, I think a “detailed Catechism” is immaterial to how much a Church emphasizes discipline. St. Athanasius’s Incarnation of the Word is very detailed, but I wouldn’t say he is necessarily obsessed with discipline.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
Perhaps you are not quite understanding what I am trying to say. To discipline means you are spoken to not necessarily listened to. In the Catholic Church the structure is geared more spoken to. In the Eastern Churches the structure is the other way around. You are more listened to which is what mentoring and nurturing involves. It is like a mother who gives out this sermon on the mount to the children all together because she needs to discipline them. The father however takes them aside individually to help explain to them this sermon. He does this by listening to them more than the mother. This is how the Eastern Church tends to live by, what the father does. What the Eastern Churches need to do is acquire more what the mother does and what the Catholic Church needs to do is to acquire more what the father is. You have to live in both Churches to discover this. I only said that the detailed catechism is part of this discipline because it is so ordered and structured which is a compliment to what the Church of Rome can give for us. Perhaps you do not see it this way but when you are an Eastern Christian a very orderly detailed catechism is very much like the “sermon of the mount”. Every one of us needs it but we also need someone to help explain it which a mentor can do for us not so much telling us but by listening to us. Do you see the difference?
 
Excellent thought and I agree completely but the problem is both orthodox and catholic can respond by saying that they are the one ytrue church. In fact, I had to look at your profile to see what religion you identified as because it’s impossible to know by the post.

After reading church history and thinking in depth and praying about it I fell that orthodo a have the true claim. But as a Roman Catholic I would be charged with schism for this.

So the question is, when it comes to authority, can we use logic and faith to determine who we submit to?
Well, there are signs that the separated eastern churches are not the Church.
In those churches, who decides what the true doctrine is when there is disagreement or ignorance? On what authority? Why are they confined almost exclusively to eastern Europe and eastern Europeans? Did not Christ found His Church upon Peter and not the other Apostles and give him the keys? Is it not clear that the Bishop of Rome is the successor of St. Peter?

It is impossible though that you will find the truth without the help of God. Whenever the devil temps me against faith I try to remember to pray to our Lady ‘Virgin most Faithful’, to St. Joseph ‘Joseph most faithful’ and to Saints Peter and Paul.
 
Well, there are signs that the separated eastern churches are not the Church.
In those churches, who decides what the true doctrine is when there is disagreement or ignorance? On what authority?
They would say, the Holy Spirit acting collegially.
Why are they confined almost exclusively to eastern Europe and eastern Europeans?
What are you going on about - what about the Coptic, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Malankara, Armenian, Syriac, Russian, and Assyrian Churches? This line of ‘reasoning’ is unreasonable.
Did not Christ found His Church upon Peter and not the other Apostles and give him the keys?
:confused:
Is it not clear that the Bishop of Rome is the successor of St. Peter?
And?
 
Ive reached a bit of a dilemma.

I completely agree that as a christian, we must submit our will to the authority of the church. If i do not understand or believe in a teaching, it is not the church which needs to change, but it is myself that needs to change.

This leaves a dilemma concerning authority. Both catholicism and orthodoxy claim full legitimate authority in which we must submit. How is one to choose which authority to submit to if both have equal claim?
The Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Churches share the same claim. The choice isn’t between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, it’s much more ‘colorful’.
 
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