Dilemma of authority

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Ive reached a bit of a dilemma.

I completely agree that as a christian, we must submit our will to the authority of the church. If i do not understand or believe in a teaching, it is not the church which needs to change, but it is myself that needs to change.

This leaves a dilemma concerning authority. Both catholicism and orthodoxy claim full legitimate authority in which we must submit. How is one to choose which authority to submit to if both have equal claim?
Those who are already Catholic are bound to remain in full communion with the Catholic Church all their lives.

The list of churches which have valid apostolic succession varies with the different churches. For example, the Catholic Church recognizes itself, at at least, the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox (six sister churches), the Church of the East, and the Polish National Church, however there is not full communion so there is no mutual Eucharistic sharing.
 
The Catholic Church was never only in Europe (It began in Jerusalem) but has been, of course, confined to the known and accessible world of the age. As new parts of the world have become known to those who hold the Faith the Church has spread. The Eastern Orthodox churches are confined, even in this day and age, largely to Eastern Europe and Eastern European people. Around half of all Eastern Orthodox are in Russia. This is a sign that this communion of churches is not the Church, which Christ founded to teach all nations.
This is such a poor argument. From the beginning the true church has been the church that preserved exactly that: the Truth! It doesn’t matter how many people accept it or where it is accepted if the truth remains.

By relying on demographic factors one is depending upon a volatile standard for determining “truth.” Both Orthodoxy and Catholicism have experienced periods of growth and isolation. The Roman Catholic Church just so happens to be living after a period of missionary expansion whereas Orthodoxy is coming out of a period of persecution under the Ottoman Empire and the Soviet Union. Already, though, Orthodoxy is expanding its missionary efforts in places like North America, Latin America, the Phillipines, and Africa where there is impressive growth.
 
This is a huge part of my dilemma. Both east and west ackowledge the primacy of peter and Rome.

Both Orthodox and Catholics have legitimate Claim to authority but the more that i read about church history I become more and more inclined to think that the East has maintained the true meaning of Jesus’s call and the West has over stepped by claiming the supremacy of Rome.
If the primacy of Peter – whatever that primacy is – is in fact of divine origin, coming from the will of Christ, and if the primacy of Rome is directly related to this primacy of Peter, then the question arises: Who is more likely to have the correct understanding of that primacy – the church that has office of Peter or the church that does not?

If one does not claim a divine origin for Peter’s primacy or Rome’s primacy, but says that the primacy relates more to Rome’s place in the empire, for example, then the issue is a bit different.

I’m not really sure how the Orthodox view the divine basis for Peter’s primacy. But if they do think it is of Christ’s will, then the dilemma above follows, I think.
 
The Catholic Church was never only in Europe (It began in Jerusalem) but has been, of course, confined to the known and accessible world of the age. As new parts of the world have become known to those who hold the Faith the Church has spread. The Eastern Orthodox churches are confined, even in this day and age, largely to Eastern Europe and Eastern European people. Around half of all Eastern Orthodox are in Russia. This is a sign that this communion of churches is not the Church, which Christ founded to teach all nations.
Pffft…this is like arguing the Catholic Church must not be the true Church because its spread into other non-European regions was accompanied by the abuse and mistreatment of the natives (especially South America). Perhaps the reason the Orthodox didn’t spread as fast as the Roman Church has to do with their being persecuted through much of their history–by the turks and the communists. Try to have a little understanding.:o
 
If the primacy of Peter – whatever that primacy is – is in fact of divine origin, coming from the will of Christ, and if the primacy of Rome is directly related to this primacy of Peter, then the question arises: Who is more likely to have the correct understanding of that primacy – the church that has office of Peter or the church that does not?

If one does not claim a divine origin for Peter’s primacy or Rome’s primacy, but says that the primacy relates more to Rome’s place in the empire, for example, then the issue is a bit different.

I’m not really sure how the Orthodox view the divine basis for Peter’s primacy. But if they do think it is of Christ’s will, then the dilemma above follows, I think.
Orthodox Christians believe that the primacy St. Peter held is akin not to one bishop above other bishop, but to one bishop over his flock. In other words, the successor of Peter is the bishop in each church, not only the Bishop of Rome. One finds evidence of this in church history:

“Our Lord, whose precepts and warnings we ought to observe, determining the honour of a Bishop and to the ordering of His own Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter, I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and on this rock will I build My Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19). Thence the ordination of Bishops, and the ordering of the Church, runs down along the course of time and line of succession, so that the Church is settled upon her Bishops; and every act of the Church is regulated by these same Prelates.” St. Cyprian, 33rd Epistle.

St. Cyprian directly ties the promise of Christ to St. Peter to the office of the episcopacy as a whole, not just to Rome.

“66. Priests Britain has, but foolish ones; a great number of ministers, but shameless; clergy, but crafty plunderers; pastors, so to say, but wolves ready for the slaughter of souls, certainly not providing what is of benefit for the people, but seeking the filling of their own belly. They have church edifices, but enter them for the sake of filthy lucre; they teach the people, but by furnishing the worst examples, teach vice and evil morals; they seldom sacrifice, and never stand among the altars with pure heart; they |165 do not reprove the people on account of their sins, nay, in fact, they commit the same; they despise the commandments of Christ, and are careful to satisfy their own lusts with all their prayers: they get possession of the seat of the apostle Peter 61 with unclean feet, but, by the desert of cupidity,62 fall into the unwholesome chair of the traitor Judas.”

-St Gildas, De Excidio Britanniae: St. Gildas identifies bishops, and multiple bishops at that, as successors of Peter and possessers of his chair.

“I beseech our common father Ambrose, that, after the scanty dew of my discourse, he may pour abundantly into your hearts the mysteries of the divine writings. Let him speak from that Holy Spirit with which he is filled, and ‘from his belly shall flow rivers of living water;’ and, as a successor of Peter, he shall be the mouth of all the surrounding priests. For when the Lord Jesus asked of the apostles, ‘Whom do you say that I am?’ Peter alone replies, with the mouth of all believers, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ What reward did that confession at once receive? Blessedness indeed, and the most glorious power of the heavenly kingdom.”

-St. Gaudentius of Brescia (Tract. 16, De Ordin. Ipsius. Cited by J. Waterworth S.J., A Commentary (London: Thomas Richardson, 1871), pp. 105-107).
 
This is such a poor argument. From the beginning the true church has been the church that preserved exactly that: the Truth! It doesn’t matter how many people accept it or where it is accepted if the truth remains.

By relying on demographic factors one is depending upon a volatile standard for determining “truth.”
I agree (well, I hadn’t previously read the post that you quoted, but now I have because I didn’t want to respond to your post out of context). I’ve seen the “demographics argument” (or whatever one might call it) now and then, but I’ve never found it to make much sense. I would only point out that we have better arguments (and I cannot think of a single document coming out of the Vatican that employs the “demographics argument” against y’all).
 
This is a sign that this communion of churches is not the Church, which Christ founded to teach all nations.
Or rather, it’s the sign of martyr Churches, which, though they took Christianity all the way to the Far East close to a millennium before Rome even knew of Christians there, were decimated witnessing to Christ, be it under the hammer and the sickle or under the scimitar or under the sabre.

Pax Christi
 
If one does not claim a divine origin for Peter’s primacy or Rome’s primacy, but says that the primacy relates more to Rome’s place in the empire, for example, then the issue is a bit different.
The Church of Rome, founded c. 40, was not founded by St. Peter, who arrived there c. 60, unlike the Church of Antioch c. 45. As a matter of fact, it’s not even clear cut that St. Peter was ever the bishop of Rome, with the first statements in this sense appearing only in the 3rd century. To deny that Rome arose to preeminence in the West because it was also the imperial capital, in addition to St. Peter having been martyred there, is naïve.

Pax Christi
 
I agree (well, I hadn’t previously read the post that you quoted, but now I have because I didn’t want to respond to your post out of context). I’ve seen the “demographics argument” (or whatever one might call it) now and then, but I’ve never found it to make much sense. I would only point out that we have better arguments (and I cannot think of a single document coming out of the Vatican that employs the “demographics argument” against y’all).
It is standard apologetics. The Church was founded to teach all nations and so to determine which of the churches claiming to be the True Church really is the Church we may look to the signs of the Church. One of these is ‘Catholic’ meaning not just that it preserves the whole Faith but that it was founded to teach all peoples. The Catholic Church is established across the globe and its members are from all peoples. That is a sign that it is the True Church. This was even taught by St. Cyril of Jerusalem and St Augustine (both Doctors of the Church) in the 4th and 5th centuries.
 
It is standard apologetics. The Church was founded to teach all nations and so to determine which of the churches claiming to be the True Church really is the Church we may look to the signs of the Church. One of these is ‘Catholic’ meaning not just that it preserves the whole Faith but that it was founded to teach all peoples. The Catholic Church is established across the globe and its members are from all peoples. That is a sign that it is the True Church. This was even taught by St. Cyril of Jerusalem and St Augustine (both Doctors of the Church) in the 4th and 5th centuries.
Did you not read my post about the Orthodox Church having suffered persecution that hindered its spread? The Orthodox do evangelize and they are spreading into other countries. Your argument has no merit.
 
The Church of Rome, founded c. 40, was not founded by St. Peter, who arrived there c. 60, unlike the Church of Antioch c. 45. As a matter of fact, it’s not even clear cut that St. Peter was ever the bishop of Rome, with the first statements in this sense appearing only in the 3rd century. To deny that Rome arose to preeminence in the West because it was also the imperial capital, in addition to St. Peter having been martyred there, is naïve.

Pax Christi
The Bishop of Rome would always have had the highest authority in the Church even if it had not been the capital. That is because God established that the Apostles and all Christians should have a leader to ensure unity of Faith and unity of government. When Peter died the Church did not dissolve nor did it become a democracy, nor did it become stagnant and unable to make authoritative judgements without universal consent among the bishops.
 
Did you not read my post about the Orthodox Church having suffered persecution that hindered its spread? The Orthodox do evangelize and they are spreading into other countries. Your argument has no merit.
But the Orthodox churches are not throughout the world and all peoples, are they? The Catholic Church is. They could spread in the future but God will not fail to give us visible signs of His Church being One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, and more so than other churches, so that those who seek the truth may see.
 
But the Orthodox churches are not throughout the world and all peoples, are they? The Catholic Church is. They could spread in the future but God will not fail to give us visible signs of His Church being One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, and more so than other churches, so that those who seek the truth may see.
So when the Assyrian Church was the most widespread Church, it was the true Church?
 
So when the Assyrian Church was the most widespread Church, it was the true Church?
No, the fact of being widespread is a sign of a church being for all people at all times as the Church Jesus founded. This is the visible catholicity of the Church. The Church of the East may have been more geographically widespread than the Church for a time but no doubt it did not have all the signs of being the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church when compared to the Catholic Church.
 
This has only been true for the Roman Church specifically for the last half millennium.

Pax Christi
The Catholic Church has evangelized the world as it has become known and accessible. It also calls itself Catholic and is known primarily as Catholic. The Orthodox refer to themselves as being catholic, yes, but they identify primarily as ‘orthodox’. St. Augustine wrote that the Church was always known primarily as ‘catholic’ although between themselves others spoke of themselves as being catholic.
 
No, the fact of being widespread is a sign of a church being for all people at all times as the Church Jesus founded. This is the visible catholicity of the Church. The Church of the East may have been more geographically widespread than the Church for a time but no doubt it did not have all the signs of being the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church when compared to the Catholic Church.
That is a really poor argument.
 
The Catholic Church has evangelized the world as it has become known and accessible.
No, it hasn’t. The Far East had been known for millennia before the Great Schism, but the Roman Church had never left the West. It took the Nestorians to take Christianity to those peoples.

Even N. Africa, a stone throw from the Italian peninsula, was not evangelized by Rome.

History is humbling and forbids anyone to stand on a soapbox with delusions of grandeur, even the One True Church.

Pax Christi
 
One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
You do not understand the meaning of the Greek word καθολικός. First and foremost, it means complete, fullness, referring to the deposit of the faith. In the Late Antiquity it was a common title of what would be called sui juris Churches.

With regards to her universality it does not mean a Church demographics or her territory, but that her message is for all, because Christ came to save all men.

Pax Christi
 
No, the fact of being widespread is a sign of a church being for all people at all times as the Church Jesus founded. This is the visible catholicity of the Church. The Church of the East may have been more geographically widespread than the Church for a time but no doubt it did not have all the signs of being the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church when compared to the Catholic Church.
In other words, the argument from geographical extent only counts when it works in your favor.
 
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