Dilemma of intelligent design and free will

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Bahman said:
Ok, then here you go:
  1. God is omniscient
  2. Omniscience is the knowledge of everything
  3. Knowledge however is a utility of consciousness
  4. This means that knowledge cannot be used as a tool to create consciousness
  5. The act creation of conscious being based on knowledge is logically impossible
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God is not only omniscient, he is omnipotent, so your argument falls apart.
 
Jon_S said:
I don’t understand why you create these parameters that are arbitrary and inaccurate.
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Huh?
Jon_S said:
The biggest problem is of course, is humans are incapable of creating life strictly speaking, but someone has designed us for life so that is what we call God.
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The question is how God could resolve the tension between design and freedom which is a logically impossible act.
Jon_S said:
Perhaps this analogy is closer for you.

A doctor can design a process for in vitro fertilization. He sets the parameters the experiment, and then when the material is provided and the design is followed. He can in a petri dish, bring egg and speed together with the planned result being an embryo.

Does the story end there?

Did the doctor design consciousness and remove free will from his creation in creating an embryo. Or will that embryo develop and exercise his free will however he pleased?

Why can’t the same process be said for God and humans?
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Hence an embryo is conscious but this doesn’t resolve the problem that the act creation of a conscious being is impossible.
 
I do not know what has been said in this thread. Thus I do not know if this is good or bad.

Aristotle and the Greeks said we are rational creatures.
The cosmos is seen as logically or rationally designed.
 
Bahman said:
Huh?

The question is how God could resolve the tension between design and freedom which is a logically impossible act.

Hence an embryo is conscious but this doesn’t resolve the problem that the act creation of a conscious being is impossible.
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You aren’t making sense.

You just said, the embryo is conscious, but being conscious is impossible.

So which way is it?

You choose to say it’s impossible with no supporting facts or concepts.

It’s like me saying

Gills in fish pull oxygen from the water
Fish have gills and thus pull oxygen from the water
Fish can breathe under water
But breathing underwater is an impossibility.
 
Jon_S said:
You aren’t making sense.

You just said, the embryo is conscious, but being conscious is impossible.

So which way is it?

You choose to say it’s impossible with no supporting facts or concepts.

It’s like me saying

Gills in fish pull oxygen from the water
Fish have gills and thus pull oxygen from the water
Fish can breathe under water
But breathing underwater is an impossibility.
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I am very serious. When exactly in your life you become conscious?
 
Jon_S said:
Why?

Says who?

And how would it change things if true?
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So you mean that God acts based on ignorance? Omnipotence is the utility of omniscience and omniscience is the utility of consciousness.
 
Bahman said:
So, you want to put a logically impossible act on the shoulders of God? I am arguing that it is logically impossible act because there exist a tension between design and freedom. Once a system is fully designed to the last digit to perform a function then it is no free, otherwise the system is ill-defined.
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Not if that freedom is a part of the design.

Look - we are not fully free. I will grant that. For example a human being cannot fly like a bird can. We cannot swim like a fish can. There are many limitations to our physical design.
Likewise there are limitations to our intellectual design. However - those limitations need not preclude free will as part of the design parameters.
However - those intellectual limitations CAN impair our ability to grasp and/or explain this concept. I think that is what we are running into.

Peace
James
 
Bahman said:
The question is how God could resolve the tension between design and freedom which is a logically impossible act.
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As has already been said several times now, there is not necessarily a tension between design and freedom if freedom is built in as part of the design. This is getting a bit too esoteric. I’ll put it this way: God has the necessary knowledge and power to design and create consciousness complete with free will.
 
Jon_S said:
Try this on,
  1. I want to fly
  2. I have arms that flap like wings
  3. I enjoy high views
  4. therefore I can fly.
Just because you number a set of premises does not mean they work… Your logical argument is ill defined, and in cohesive.
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You have the knowledge but you don’t have the power. So your arguments fails but not mine.
 
JRKH said:
Not if that freedom is a part of the design.

Look - we are not fully free. I will grant that. For example a human being cannot fly like a bird can. We cannot swim like a fish can. There are many limitations to our physical design.
Likewise there are limitations to our intellectual design. However - those limitations need not preclude free will as part of the design parameters.
However - those intellectual limitations CAN impair our ability to grasp and/or explain this concept. I think that is what we are running into.

Peace
James
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No, I think I answer that in post #56. Could you please look at it?
 
Bahman said:
No, I think I answer that in post #56. Could you please look at it?
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OK - I looked at it…
  1. I did not ask a question in my post #68 that you quoted…
  2. Your post #56 does not answer the question that I did not ask in my post #68…😃
Unless I am totally confused (correct me if I’m wrong) - - the assertion you are making is that one cannot “design” something with free will - that these the two things are somehow mutually exclusive.
You seem to base this on the idea that once something is fully designed (your term) all options are provided for and therefore - no free will.
Therefore you see this a logical conflict.
What you have NOT explained away (unless I missed it) is my assertion that a designer might allow for “free will” in a design. Or more accurately let’s call it “free choice” in a design.

Consider that - even today - Computer programmers are designing systems that allow for a computer to learn - to make choices etc…It’s called “artificial intelligence”. Here we see designers making “free will” (Free choice) a part of their design parameters.

Peace
James
 
Bahman said:
Lets have definitions first:
…

Hence the concept of creation is false.
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a) You overlook that the design is not described with a pen. All knowledge and wisdom of God is timeless and eternal. That design is part of an etenal wisdom. So free will cannot stay out of etenal knowledge.

Eternal knowledge surround all times the past, now and future.

b) With free will human does not create something but God create. And with free will human cannot change the physical laws, the structure and action of universe. One cannot change his gender or nation. All those are part of design. And free will cannot impair the action of universe indeed free will has not any power. The order of universe just can be by a eternal design but for that there is no need for free choices of human. What human choose is being created in laws obtains in universe. İndeed there is no physical laws but we just name and call them that law etc. Forexample it has not been yet proved the mass of subatomic molecules which create gravity. The gravity is manifestation of power of God as law of nature like all other laws.

God know choices of human as timeless and eternally. The act of choosing by free will need not a power. Forexample there is no parallel and meridians lines but those work. So human do not create anything but make choices and God create what human choose. When some decide to plant a vegetable then that plant leaf out with a design and laws of God which we call physical, chemical, biological etc. But again do not forget that God knows what you choose eternally but not as before or after your choice but just timelessly. The propblem is that human is matter and cannot understand being beyond of time and matter.
 
JRKH said:
OK - I looked at it…
  1. I did not ask a question in my post #68 that you quoted…
  2. Your post #56 does not answer the question that I did not ask in my post #68…😃
Unless I am totally confused (correct me if I’m wrong) - - the assertion you are making is that one cannot “design” something with free will - that these the two things are somehow mutually exclusive.
You seem to base this on the idea that once something is fully designed (your term) all options are provided for and therefore - no free will.
Therefore you see this a logical conflict.
What you have NOT explained away (unless I missed it) is my assertion that a designer might allow for “free will” in a design. Or more accurately let’s call it “free choice” in a design.
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Here you go: I am providing two argument here one is hard and the other is easy as following.

Hard argument:

What I am claiming is that the act of designing a being with free will is logically impossible, hence omnipotence cannot help.

Why? Because of a simple reason, first design is prior to act creation as what it is useless to use omnipotence on creating something which is logically impossible, hence omnipotence is an utility of omniscience. So I just need to argue that there is a tension between freedom and design. Does design require implementation a sort of knowledge? Yes. How it could be design otherwise. Yet, knowledge works as a constrain on a system requires a specific function which is against freedom.

Easy argument:

Knowledge is utility of consciousness hence it cannot leads to anything which grant the ability to create consciousness not matter how powerful God/we are.
JRKH said:
Consider that - even today - Computer programmers are designing systems that allow for a computer to learn - to make choices etc…It’s called “artificial intelligence”. Here we see designers making “free will” (Free choice) a part of their design parameters.

Peace
James
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Is the sum of computer together with a program is conscious? No.
 
hasantas said:
a) You overlook that the design is not described with a pen. All knowledge and wisdom of God is timeless and eternal. That design is part of an eternal wisdom. So free will cannot stay out of eternal knowledge.

Eternal knowledge surround all times the past, now and future.
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There does not exist a knowledge of consciousness hence free will because knowledge is utility of consciousness.
hasantas said:
b) With free will human does not create something but God create. And with free will human cannot change the physical laws, the structure and action of universe. One cannot change his gender or nation. All those are part of design. And free will cannot impair the action of universe indeed free will has not any power. The order of universe just can be by a eternal design but for that there is no need for free choices of human. What human choose is being created in laws obtains in universe. İndeed there is no physical laws but we just name and call them that law etc. For example it has not been yet proved the mass of subatomic molecules which create gravity. The gravity is manifestation of power of God as law of nature like all other laws.

God know choices of human as timeless and eternally. The act of choosing by free will need not a power. For example there is no parallel and meridians lines but those work. So human do not create anything but make choices and God create what human choose. When some decide to plant a vegetable then that plant leaf out with a design and laws of God which we call physical, chemical, biological etc. But again do not forget that God knows what you choose eternally but not as before or after your choice but just timelessly. The problem is that human is matter and cannot understand being beyond of time and matter.
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God cannot create consciousness since it is a conscious being unless you say otherwise.
 
Bahman said:
Here you go: I am providing two argument here one is hard and the other is easy as following.

Hard argument:

What I am claiming is that the act of designing a being with free will is logically impossible, hence omnipotence cannot help.

Why? Because of a simple reason, first design is prior to act creation as what it is useless to use omnipotence on creating something which is logically impossible, hence omnipotence is an utility of omniscience. So I just need to argue that there is a tension between freedom and design. Does design require implementation a sort of knowledge? Yes. How it could be design otherwise. Yet, knowledge works as a constrain on a system requires a specific function which is against freedom.
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Your right - this is the hard argument. I am not smart enough to follow it well…particularly since it seems that English is not your first language and I am having trouble gathering some of your thoughts…
That said - it seems to me that you are making some rather large jumps in your logic.
Take your very first statement - - forget all the rest - - Why is the act of designing a being with free will logically impossible.
Here is what I see - - A designer may choose ANY set of parameters and design (or at least try to design) his creation from there. Others may tell him that what he is attempting won’t work, and maybe they are right…yet the designer is free to choose to try…Therefore, it is not logically impossible for a designer to design a “being” with “free will”.
Easy argument:
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Knowledge is utility of consciousness hence it cannot leads to anything which grant the ability to create consciousness not matter how powerful God/we are.
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I don’t think that we have sufficient knowledge of the subject of consciousness to make any such conclusion.
Is the sum of computer together with a program is conscious? No.
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Perhaps not - - - But it IS a designer using free will (free choice) as a parameter in his design…So it disproves your assertion above that attempting to design a being with free will is a logical impossibility.

Peace
James
 
Bahman said:
God cannot create consciousness since it is a conscious being unless you say otherwise.
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My goodness but you are a mighty smart fellow - since you know what God can and cannot create…:hmmm::whistle:

Peace
James
 
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