Dilemma of reasoning

[STT]

Do you think they acquire the ability to reason gradually?

The problem is how they could acquire the ability to reason gradually. That is the subject of this thread. We cannot understand this unless we resolve the dilemma.

 

[fisherman_carl]

We all know without any doubt that we have to have certain experience in our early stage of our lives in order to develop the ability of reasoning in later stage of our lives.

You lost me here. What experience are you referring to? What kind of reasoning are you referring to? What is the early stage you are referring to? Obviously, this statement is not true. We don’t all know it and it is not obvious.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I don’t think experience does lead to the ability to reason. Experience doesn’t give us reason, we already have it. We are endowed with rationality as human beings. Experience gives us fuel to reason with and thereby increase our knowledge.

If reason could be had by experience alone, even the chimpanzees would be solving differential equations. No matter how many classes on higher mathematics a chimpanzee may experience he will never understand even the simplest equation.

 

[STT]

You lost me here. What experience are you referring to? What kind of reasoning are you referring to? What is the early stage you are referring to? Obviously, this statement is not true. We don’t all know it and it is not obvious.

Of course this statement is true. Let me answer to all your questions with a simple thought experiment. Think of a person who was in coma all its life. Now suppose that s/he awakens in its later stage of life. Could s/he reason at all? No. What S/he was missing? Experience.

 

[STT]

If reason could be had by experience alone, even the chimpanzees would be solving differential equations. No matter how many classes on higher mathematics a chimpanzee may experience he will never understand even the simplest equation.

Of course chimpanzee can reason. You can read about it here.

 

[seagal]

That is a shortcut and I don’t agree with it (bold part). Why we then need to practice reasoning in order to improve our ability to reason if we already have the ability to reason? Reasoning is a part of knowledge which expands as well. Reasoning is not a fixed package that allows us to only expand our knowledge.

Then we don’t have the same definition for reason.

 

[seagal]

If reason could be had by experience alone, even the chimpanzees would be solving differential equations. No matter how many classes on higher mathematics a chimpanzee may experience he will never understand even the simplest equation.

That’s overstating it. Humans have human reasoning, chimps have chimp reasoning. They will never reach our level but they can reason things out pretty well to their own capacity.

 

[seagal]

Have you ever seen a kid who is able to reason when s/he is able to talk? An infant does not need reasoning since the parents fully take care of him/her.

Of course they can reason. We look after their basic needs (food, shelter, etc.) but they need reason to learn about themselves and the world. From the time they’re born they are constantly learning. And how do they learn? From reason and experience. The first thing they learn is that crying will get them the attention they need.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I can enclose a simple argument as this: You need reason to judge an experience and you need experience to reason. This is circular.

Not circular, linear.

We are born first, then we experience, then we learn to reason.

That is linear, not circular because reasoning grows out of experience.

 

[STT]

Then we don’t have the same definition for reason.

what is your definition of reason?

 

[STT]

Of course they can reason. We look after their basic needs (food, shelter, etc.) but they need reason to learn about themselves and the world. From the time they’re born they are constantly learning. And how do they learn? From reason and experience. The first thing they learn is that crying will get them the attention they need.

Crying is a simple reflex produced by brain when an infant is not comfortable, ill, hungry, etc. It is basically the result of instinct. An infant is totally dependent on its instinct in the first period of its life. So there is no reason in early stage of our lives.

 

[STT]

Not circular, linear.

We are born first, then we experience, then we learn to reason.

That is linear, not circular because reasoning grows out of experience.

How reason comes out of experience? This to me like calling a jeannie which does not exist in his place.

 

[seagal]

Crying is a simple reflex produced by brain when an infant is not comfortable, ill, hungry, etc. It is basically the result of instinct. An infant is totally dependent on its instinct in the first period of its life. So there is no reason in early stage of our lives.

Have you ever had children? Yes, crying is a simple reflex at first , but then it becomes a baby’s first language. He learns to cry when he’s hungry, soiled, lonely, bored, and mommy or daddy comes running. Any parent could tell you stories of how they try to get the baby down to sleep, only to have it start crying as soon as it realizes what their nefarious plan is. After the crying, the baby learns that smiling gets even more attention focused on him, which helps him learn our language.

As I said before, reason is something humans are born with, by which we take our experiences and gain knowledge.

 

[STT]

As I said before, reason is something humans are born with, by which we take our experiences and gain knowledge.

Do you have any justification for this?

 

[davidv]

Do you have any justification for this?

My justification is my experience of raising 6 children. Observation provides evidence of the innate presence of reasoning, no matter how undeveloped, in human persons from the very beginning.

 

[STT]

My justification is my experience of raising 6 children. Observation provides evidence of the innate presence of reasoning, no matter how undeveloped, in human persons from the very beginning.

Well, lets go back in time to reach to an embryo. Based on what you suggest an embryo has the capacity to reason? The question which is related to this thread is that when exactly a human being starts to have the capacity to reason.

 

[davidv]

Well, lets go back in time to reach to an embryo. Based on what you suggest an embryo has the capacity to reason?

From the very beginning this capacity exists. Why? Because this capacity is part of what it means to be human. It matters not whether that capacity is active, or ever fulfilled.

The question which is related to this thread is that when exactly a human being starts to have the capacity to reason.

 

[STT]

From the very beginning this capacity exists. Why? Because this capacity is part of what it means to be human. It matters not whether that capacity is active, or ever fulfilled.

But I think we can agree on the fact that a embryo needs to grow to certain stage, when it has a well develop brain, in order to have the capacity to reason. A cell cannot reason.

 

[seagal]

Do you have any justification for this?

My justification is my experience of raising 6 children. Observation provides evidence of the innate presence of reasoning, no matter how undeveloped, in human persons from the very beginning.

This ^^ plus the fact that you can give any amount of experience to someone incapable of reason and they won’t be able to process it at all.

But I think we can agree on the fact that a embryo needs to grow to certain stage, when it has a well develop brain, in order to have the capacity to reason. A cell cannot reason.

Which kinda proves my point.

 

[STT]

This ^^ plus the fact that you can give any amount of experience to someone incapable of reason and they won’t be able to process it at all.

This we can agree upon. So it is not soul which is responsible for rational reasoning.

Which kinda proves my point.

This is difficult part so lets focus on it. We can agree that an embryo is not capable of reasoning. We know that a well grown kid is able to reason. We can agree upon the fact that we cannot have the capacity to reason or improve our reasoning without experience. We however need reasoning in first place in order to judge experience. This is however problematic since it implements that you need reason in first place in order to gain reasoning ability. This is the dilemma that we are dealing with.