Dilemma of reasoning

[davidv]

This we can agree upon. So it is not soul which is responsible for rational reasoning.

No, we cannot agree with this. Nor have you presented any evidence that this is the case.

This is difficult part so lets focus on it. We can agree that an embryo is not capable of reasoning.

This is false. Just because there no apparent reasoning does not mean that the capability is absent.

We know that a well grown kid is able to reason. We can agree upon the fact that we cannot have the capacity to reason or improve our reasoning without experience. We however need reasoning in first place in order to judge experience. This is however problematic since it implements that you need reason in first place in order to gain reasoning ability. This is the dilemma that we are dealing with.

There is no dilemma. Your dilemma is base on false assumptions.

 

[STT]

No, we cannot agree with this. Nor have you presented any evidence that this is the case.

But there are people who are not capable of reasoning either because their brain didn’t develop well or they have damage in their brains.

This is false. Just because there no apparent reasoning does not mean that the capability is absent.

If we take your approach then we cannot rule out that a piece of stone cannot reason too.

There is no dilemma. Your dilemma is base on false assumptions.

There is a dilemma. Do you agree that we need reason to find a reason?

 

[davidv]

But there are people who are not capable of reasoning either because their brain didn’t develop well or they have damage in their brains.

Neither the lack of development, nor the presence of damage, diminishes the intrinsic capacity of a human to reason. If not, the lack of reasoning could not be blamed on lack of development nor on damage.

If we take your approach then we cannot rule out that a piece of stone cannot reason too.

Only if you assume, wrongly, that humans and stones are the same.

There is a dilemma. Do you agree that we need reason to find a reason?

This not the same topic.

 

[STT]

Neither the lack of development, nor the presence of damage, diminishes the intrinsic capacity of a human to reason. If not, the lack of reasoning could not be blamed on lack of development nor on damage.

What do you mean by intrinsic ability to reason? We either can reason or cannot. I can claim that human are intrinsically Gods. No one can disprove my claim. We go nowhere if we have such a attitude to make such claims.

Only if you assume, wrongly, that humans and stones are the same.

They are of course different. Can you prove or have any evidence that a stone cannot reason.

This not the same topic.

It is the same topic.

 

[davidv]

What do you mean by intrinsic ability to reason? We either can reason or cannot. I can claim that human are intrinsically Gods. No one can disprove my claim. We go nowhere if we have such a attitude to make such claims.

They are of course different. Can you prove or have any evidence that a stone cannot reason.

It is the same topic.

intrinsic: 1. belonging to a thing by its very nature:

 

[seagal]

This we can agree upon. So it is not soul which is responsible for rational reasoning.

Since it is our soul and also our ability to reason that separates us from other animals, I would say that our soul is at least linked to, if not responsible for, rational reasoning. But I think that takes us away from the original question.

This is difficult part so lets focus on it. We can agree that an embryo is not capable of reasoning. We know that a well grown kid is able to reason.** We can agree upon the fact that we cannot have the capacity to reason **or improve our reasoning without experience…

No I don’t agree with that. I’ve already stated twice my contention that experience doesn’t give us reason. The capacity to reason is something we’re born with and develops as our brains develop and as we acquire knowledge.

We however need reasoning in first place in order to judge experience. This is however problematic since it implements [autocorrect?] that you need reason in first place in order to gain reasoning ability. This is the dilemma that we are dealing with

This is not a dilemma for me since it is my point. I haven’t yet seen justification for your assertion.

 

[STT]

Since it is our soul and also our ability to reason that separates us from other animals, I would say that our soul is at least linked to, if not responsible for, rational reasoning. But I think that takes us away from the original question.

Animal can reason too. You might want read this article.

No I don’t agree with that. I’ve already stated twice my contention that experience doesn’t give us reason. The capacity to reason is something we’re born with and develops as our brains develop and as we acquire knowledge.

My question is where does the reason, the one that are born with, come from?

This is not a dilemma for me since it is my point. I haven’t yet seen justification for your assertion.

Do you agree that we need reason to find reason?

 

[seagal]

Animal can reason too. You might want read this article.

I quite agree, animals do have an ability to reason.

My question is where does the reason, the one that are born with, come from?

Where does our ability to think at all come from? Where does our consciousness come from? Psychologists don’t have an answer for that.

Do you agree that we need reason to find reason?

No. But you obviously do. Why?

 

[STT]

I quite agree, animals do have an ability to reason.

Good. It is difficult to convince all Catholics that animals have the ability to reason.

Where does our ability to think at all come from? Where does our consciousness come from? Psychologists don’t have an answer for that.

It is simply neurological process inside the brain.

No. But you obviously do. Why?

We have to have the ability to reason in order to reason. I think that is obvious. But this means that the reasons exist somewhere within us. So the question is where do the reasons come from? We were very simple being, an embryo, in early stage of our lives and didn’t have any capacity to reason.

Think of creativity if what I am saying is not clear to you because the topics are closely related. A new idea which we create is not inside our mind in the first place util we create it. How could we possibly be able to create a new idea? You can understand what this dilemma is about if you understand the problem with creativity.

 

[seagal]

We have to have the ability to reason in order to reason. I think that is obvious. But this means that the reasons exist somewhere within us. So the question is where do the reasons come from? We were very simple being, an embryo, in early stage of our lives and didn’t have any capacity to reason.

Think of creativity if what I am saying is not clear to you because the topics are closely related. A new idea which we create is not inside our mind in the first place util we create it. How could we possibly be able to create a new idea? You can understand what this dilemma is about if you understand the problem with creativity.

I find it very interesting that you can dismiss the wakening of consciousness as “simply a neurological process inside the brain” but fail to see that rationality is exactly the same thing.

 

[STT]

I find it very interesting that you can dismiss the wakening of consciousness as “simply a neurological process inside the brain” but fail to see that rationality is exactly the same thing.

I think both phenomena are related to neurological process inside the brain. What I cannot understand is that how creativity, for example, is possible as the result of a neurological process.