Dilemma of time and the act of creation

[STT]

Creation begins.
Creation is is a state of change and therefore involves time.
Creation is separate from nothing/nonexistence.
There can be no infinitesimal vicinity between creation and nothing, because nothing is nothing, not something. There is nothing to get close to.
You are getting stuck on the analogy of a timeline, which contains something called the zero point. There is no zero point with respect to creation.

I am afraid that I cannot make my argument clearer.

 

[Aloysium]

I am afraid that I cannot make my argument clearer.

I think you are perfectly clear.
I understand what you claim and consider it wrong.

 

[Aloysium]

I am afraid that I cannot make my argument clearer.

Your argument basically is that:
Time starts at point t=0.
Therefore time must exist at t=0.
You need time for creation to occur.
It’s not an argument, but a restatement of the same claim.

The counterclaim is that God creates everything, and that nothing exists otherwise.
T=0 is simply that - nothing/zero/nihilo/niente/nada - no movement, nothing to move.
Nothing cannot be approximated.
Existence is binary - yes or no.
There is no partial existence; something either is or it isn’t.
Time does not exist apart from that which is changing.

 

[STT]

Your argument basically is that:
Time starts at point t=0.
Therefore time must exist at t=0.
You need time for creation to occur.
It’s not an argument, but a restatement of the same claim.

No, that is not my argument. The act of creation has two points (nothing to something) and these two points cannot coincide since the definition of existence at single point becomes ill-defined (you have nothing and something at the a point).

The counterclaim is that God creates everything, and that nothing exists otherwise.
T=0 is simply that - nothing/zero/nihilo/niente/nada - no movement, nothing to move.
Nothing cannot be approximated.
Existence is binary - yes or no.
There is no partial existence; something either is or it isn’t.
Time does not exist apart from that which is changing.

Exactly because existence is binary - yes or no - you cannot have - yes and no.

 

[Aloysium]

No, that is not my argument. The act of creation has two points (nothing to something) and these two points cannot coincide since the definition of existence at single point becomes ill-defined (you have nothing and something at the a point).
Exactly because existence is binary - yes or no - you cannot have - yes and no.

There can be no point where there is nothing.
If there is anything, it cannot be nothing.
So, no movement from nothing to something.
Just the creation of something.
And, that is when time starts.

 

[STT]

There can be no point where there is nothing.
If there is anything, it cannot be nothing.
So, no movement from nothing to something.
Just the creation of something.
And, that is when time starts.

You only have existence if you don’t have “no thing” therefore you don’t need the act of creation.

 

[Aloysium]

You only have existence if you don’t have “no thing” therefore you don’t need the act of creation.

You can have existence and nothing because nothing is nothing.
1 + 0 = 1
1,000 + 0 = 1,000
There was 0; with a word, there was 1.
1 happened on top of 0.
If you wish to call t=0 the point of creation rather than what is other than creation, it remains the same situation. You have creation and nothing because all there is is creation. There is no movement from nothing to creation - just creation.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Alyosium is attempting to state it Mathematically for you.

You are saying at the instant God starts Creation, we have time. But until that point there is no time. Right?

Its like saying at the instant that egg hits that sperm we have life. Be it human or critter or coral.

We are all saying the same thing.

Where is the dilemma?

 

[John_Martin]

“T=0” is non-existent.
0 means “nothing”
“T=0” means “no Time”

Creation means “T=1” or “T > 1” in a succession points of now.
If there is a “now” in Time, it is greater than or equal to “1”.
“0” is meaningless so far as a point in time goes.

Suddenly there was Light, suddenly there was T=1
or, if you wish to speak of a singularity,
Suddenly there was a singularity, suddenly there was T=1

And God is unchanged ‘I AM’ both with and without the ‘suddenly’. He knows (in one knowing) both ‘with’ and ‘without’ in his knowing of himself and the ‘not-himself’. He is all in all.

 

[STT]

Alyosium is attempting to state it Mathematically for you.

You are saying at the instant God starts Creation, we have time. But until that point there is no time. Right?

No, I say more. You have “no thing” at t=0. You have creation at vicinity of t=0. These two states define the act of creation which separated by a time interval. As it is clear time must exist for the act of creation. Time by itself is a part of creation which we used it to explain the act of creation therefore we are dealing with a problem.

Its like saying at the instant that egg hits that sperm we have life. Be it human or critter or coral.

We are all saying the same thing.

Where is the dilemma?

I hope things is clear by now.

 

[STT]

“T=0” is non-existent.
0 means “nothing”
“T=0” means “no Time”

Creation means “T=1” or “T > 1” in a succession points of now.
If there is a “now” in Time, it is greater than or equal to “1”.
“0” is meaningless so far as a point in time goes.

Suddenly there was Light, suddenly there was T=1
or, if you wish to speak of a singularity,
Suddenly there was a singularity, suddenly there was T=1

And God is unchanged ‘I AM’ both with and without the ‘suddenly’. He knows (in one knowing) both ‘with’ and ‘without’ in his knowing of himself and the ‘not-himself’. He is all in all.

You have a time interval between t=1 and t=0. Creation as you mentioned started at t=1. But time is a part of creation. So where do you get the time interval between t=0 and t=1?

 

[Aloysium]

“T=0” is non-existent.
0 means “nothing”
“T=0” means “no Time”

Creation means “T=1” or “T > 1” in a succession points of now.
If there is a “now” in Time, it is greater than or equal to “1”.
“0” is meaningless so far as a point in time goes.

Suddenly there was Light, suddenly there was T=1
or, if you wish to speak of a singularity,
Suddenly there was a singularity, suddenly there was T=1

And God is unchanged ‘I AM’ both with and without the ‘suddenly’. He knows (in one knowing) both ‘with’ and ‘without’ in his knowing of himself and the ‘not-himself’. He is all in all.

Good luck with that.

 

[John_Martin]

Good luck with that.

Thank you

 

[Aloysium]

You have a time interval between t=1 and t=0. Creation as you mentioned started at t=1. But time is a part of creation. So where do you get the time interval between t=0 and t=1?

John, see what I mean.

T=1 as John defined it, is when time arose.
How can there possibly be an interval between 0 and 1.
You either are or you aren’t.
You can’t possibly half exist.

 

[STT]

John, see what I mean.

T=1 as John defined it, is when time arose.
How can there possibly be an interval between 0 and 1.
You either are or you aren’t.
You can’t possibly half exist.

What does he mean with t=0?

 

[John_Martin]

You have a time interval between t=1 and t=0. Creation as you mentioned started at t=1. But time is a part of creation. So where do you get the time interval between t=0 and t=1?

No; T=1 is the only first moment of time - a point is non-dimensional - no distance between being and not being, especially the first point in a line.
There is no length prior to the first point in a line, and there is no “length of time” before point 1 in time.

 

[STT]

No; T=1 is the only first moment of time - a point is non-dimensional - no distance between being and not being, especially the first point in a line.
There is no length prior to the first point in a line, and there is no “length of time” before point 1 in time.

What do you mean with t=0?

 

[Aloysium]

What does he mean with t=0?

It means there exists nothing and hence no time.
Then there was something which changed; in other words there was time.
Time came into being at t=1.
There is no transition from nothing into something.
There is simply the creation of something, which leads to the universe as we know it.

 

[John_Martin]

What does he mean with t=0?

You invented the term “T=0” but there is no such thing.
The first point of Time is a point of time, suddenly Being, and its name is “T=1”
There is duration, length, between T=1 and T=5, but T=1 only has time following it in its first position as ‘now’.

Actually, you might say the in God, T=0 since there is no time in God.
At the point of T=1, in God, T still 0.
Today at T=5/6/2017, in God T=0 while in us, we are counting minutes and hours.

 

[STT]

You invented the term “T=0” but there is no such thing.
The first point of Time is a point of time, suddenly Being, and its name is “T=1”
There is duration, length, between T=1 and T=5, but T=1 only has time following it in its first position as ‘now’.

Actually, you might say the in God, T=0 since there is no time in God.
At the point of T=1, in God, T still 0.
Today at T=5/6/2017, in God T=0 while in us, we are counting minutes and hours.

So you have universe at t=1?