Dilemma of time and the act of creation

[John_Martin]

So you have universe at t=1?

Yes, and the time from T=1 to T=1 is no length of time.
It takes no time to create - creation is immediately all creation (though over the time since then, created things have come and gone, grown up, produced others like themselves, grown old, perished, etc.)

 

[STT]

Yes, and the time from T=1 to T=1 is no length of time.
It takes no time to create - creation is immediately all creation (though over the time since then, created things have come and gone, grown up, produced others like themselves, grown old, perished, etc.)

Do you believe that any act is related to two points? There should be a change otherwise the act is meaningless. There cannot be any change if there is a point therefore the existence is the default (since we experience it) in the case of act of creation which this makes the act of creation pointless. You are trapped inside the picture of eternal now.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . creation is immediately all creation (though over the time since then, created things have come and gone, grown up, produced others like themselves, grown old, perished, etc.)

Just wanted to add as a clarification that creation began on “day” one and continued for another five “days”. Additionally, as stated in the Catechism (366): The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . You are trapped inside the picture of eternal now.

There is no picture and no eternal now outside of God’s compassion. Everything, as a manifestation of His infinite creativity, Is known and loved by God eternally. There is no being trapped other than by sin, which keeps us from participating in the wonder that is His Kingdom.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

STT read post # 299 since you want it mathematically.

There is no suspended animation here.

There was no Creation, just God, The Word and the Holy Spirit.

Then there was Creation. BY God.

Think of it this way. You are at a great orchestra. Everyone is frozen, ready to burst forth into Handel’s Messiah. The conductor is frozen, his stick mid air. All of a sudden he moves his stick. The orchestra bursts forth. Silence to music.

And don’t you dare argue there is something in that silence!

 

[STT]

There is no picture and no eternal now outside of God’s compassion. Everything, as a manifestation of His infinite creativity, Is known and loved by God eternally. There is no being trapped other than by sin, which keeps us from participating in the wonder that is His Kingdom.

You can define and describe God as you wish but that does not resolve the problem is raised in this thread. By the way, can you respond to the part you ignored: Do you believe that any act is related to two points? There should be a change otherwise the act is meaningless. There cannot be any change if there is a point therefore the existence is the default (since we experience it) in the case of act of creation which this makes the act of creation pointless.

 

[STT]

STT read post # 299 since you want it mathematically.

There is no suspended animation here.

There was no Creation, just God, The Word and the Holy Spirit.

Then there was Creation. BY God.

Think of it this way. You are at a great orchestra. Everyone is frozen, ready to burst forth into Handel’s Messiah. The conductor is frozen, his stick mid air. All of a sudden he moves his stick. The orchestra bursts forth. Silence to music.

And don’t you dare argue there is something in that silence!

Even you are using “then” when you are discussing the act of creation. Could you do otherwise? You agree that there are two points: (1) “No thing” and (2) the universe which the second point follows the first point. This means that you need time to describe the act.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Do you believe that any act is related to two points? There should be a change otherwise the act is meaningless. There cannot be any change if there is a point therefore the existence is the default (since we experience it) in the case of act of creation which this makes the act of creation pointless.

The two points are conceptual.
Nothing is a concept, not a reality.
“Nothing” does not, cannot exist.
There was no time when there was nothing.
There are no two points in time.
There are no two points ontologically either.
Nothing is nonexistence.
Something is or is not.
Nothingness or nonbeing is not a condition of the universe before its existence.
There is no point called nothingness other than as a concept, an idea of something other than what has been created.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Even you are using “then” when you are discussing the act of creation. Could you do otherwise? You agree that there are two points: (1) “No thing” and (2) the universe which the second point follows the first point. This means that you need time to describe the act.

STT, I can use vacuum if you like. . The Trinity existing in a Vacuum one minute. Then (oops forget that then, ) at the moment of, and forever from that moment exists The Trinity + Creation. How’s that.
There is still no suspended animation. No 2 co existing points.

There is ‘I AM’

Next instant 'I AM ’ + what was the first thing God created? Let’s look.

In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
1:2 Now the earth was a formless void, there was darkness over the deep, with a divine wind sweeping over the waters.
1:3 God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.

So God first created Heaven and Earth, wind , water darkness and light. Right so we go from the Trinity alone to Trinity + those 6 things.

God and the Trinity are certainly no nothing!

So tell me , when does Time start? Are you saying God is sitting there with his stopwatch, looks at it, snaps it shut and says righto, time for Creation? Does time start when God does this ?

Give me a visual,( not physics, not maths) such as I have given you. Write me a little play with God before and at the instant of Creation.

 

[John_Martin]

STT thinks that there is a time span between God saying “Let there be creation” and the clock is ticking until things start to appear, a lag time between command and fulfilment of command, like the minutes passed between when my boss says 'do this" and the moment when I actually finish it. And that “creative duration” is supposed to be the activity of creation.
Is that what you think, STT?

 

[ericc]

My position, second option in post #266, is that there is act of creation and no thing at time t=0. After that we have the universe in infinitesimal vicinity of t=0. These two points (related nothing to something) define the act of creation. We have to note that there is a infinitesimal time interval between these two points. Therefore you need time for the act of creation.

Disagree. There is no time between non-existence/existence boundary. It is illogical to have something prior to its creation. And I’ve repeated that a few times, time is an attribute of creation , not something prior to creation. When you say time starts at t=0, you are saying creation starts at time=0. There is no split second that happen first before creation. There is no time before that, even if infinitely small. You seems to have a mental block there. However, you may argue for an infinitely small amount of time AFTER t=0 though but I don’t think you are making that point. Stating the same position repeatedly is really a valueless exercise, that time pre-exist before creation without substantiating it, even if it is infinitely small is besides the point. It is a statement of illogic. With that I shall end my discussion on pre-creation time.

 

[STT]

The two points are conceptual.
Nothing is a concept, not a reality.
“Nothing” does not, cannot exist.

No, that is not correct. This I already argued against. Nothing existed otherwise existence is the default and there is no need for act of creation.

There was no time when there was nothing.
There are no two points in time.
There are no two points ontologically either.
Nothing is nonexistence.
Something is or is not.
Nothingness or nonbeing is not a condition of the universe before its existence.
There is no point called nothingness other than as a concept, an idea of something other than what has been created.

There is a point that there is nothing at that point.

 

[STT]

STT, I can use vacuum if you like. . The Trinity existing in a Vacuum one minute. Then (oops forget that then, ) at the moment of, and forever from that moment exists The Trinity + Creation. How’s that.

There is still no suspended animation.

There is no act of creation here. God and universe simply exists.

No 2 co existing points.

There is ‘I AM’

Next instant 'I AM ’ + what was the first thing God created?

There are two points here. “I AM” is the first point (in vacuum) and then “I AM + what was the first thing God created”.

Let’s look.
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
1:2 Now the earth was a formless void, there was darkness over the deep, with a divine wind sweeping over the waters.
1:3 God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.

So God first created Heaven and Earth, wind , water darkness and light. Right so we go from the Trinity alone to Trinity + those 6 things.

God and the Trinity are certainly no nothing!

So we are dealing with the second scenario.

So tell me , when does Time start? Are you saying God is sitting there with his stopwatch, looks at it, snaps it shut and says righto, time for Creation? Does time start when God does this?

That is exactly the problem that you have noticed now! When does Time start? There is no theory which can explain that since all theory use time as a variable to explain changes. In simple word, we use time to say how things start and change therefore there is no variable left which can tell us when time starts. This means that you need time in order to say when time starts which is contradictory.

Give me a visual,( not physics, not maths) such as I have given you. Write me a little play with God before and at the instant of Creation.

The second scenario as you defined is related to act of creation which is problematic as it is discussed. Let me know if things are clear now.

 

[STT]

STT thinks that there is a time span between God saying “Let there be creation” and the clock is ticking until things start to appear, a lag time between command and fulfilment of command, like the minutes passed between when my boss says 'do this" and the moment when I actually finish it. And that “creative duration” is supposed to be the activity of creation.
Is that what you think, STT?

Yes. There are two points in act of creation: (1) Act of creation at the first point (there is nothing) and (2) the universe at the second point. These two points cannot coincide on one point since the point becomes ill-defined, you would have nothing and universe at the same point.

 

[STT]

Disagree. There is no time between non-existence/existence boundary. It is illogical to have something prior to its creation. And I’ve repeated that a few times, time is an attribute of creation , not something prior to creation. When you say time starts at t=0, you are saying creation starts at time=0.

This I agree.

There is no split second that happen first before creation. There is no time before that, even if infinitely small. You seems to have a mental block there. However, you may argue for an infinitely small amount of time AFTER t=0 though but I don’t think you are making that point. Stating the same position repeatedly is really a valueless exercise, that time pre-exist before creation without substantiating it, even if it is infinitely small is besides the point. It is a statement of illogic. With that I shall end my discussion on pre-creation time.

Could we agree that there are two points which define act of creation? If yes, what they are?

 

[Wesrock]

Could we agree that there are two points which define act of creation?

No.

There are no “two” points. Just the eternal, continuuous action of willing things to be.

 

[STT]

No.

There are no “two” points. Just the eternal, continuuous action of willing things to be.

There could be no creation if there cannot “not to be”. Therefore God does not exist.

 

[Wesrock]

There could be no creation if there cannot “not to be”. Therefore God does not exist.

I never said that the current creations were necessary creations, for they could have been not.

And that said, your therefore doesn’t even follow.

 

[STT]

I never said that the current creations were necessary creations, for they could have been not.

And that said, your therefore doesn’t even follow.

So you agree that in regards to creation there could be nothing and something in minds of God at the eternal now? That is problematic considering the fact that God cannot doubt and change.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

There is no act of creation here. God and universe simply exists.

There are two points here. “I AM” is the first point (in vacuum) and then “I AM + what was the first thing God created”.

So we are dealing with the second scenario.

That is exactly the problem that you have noticed now! When does Time start? There is no theory which can explain that since all theory use time as a variable to explain changes. In simple word, we use time to say how things start and change therefore there is no variable left which can tell us when time starts. This means that you need time in order to say when time starts which is contradictory.

The second scenario as you defined is related to act of creation which is problematic as it is discussed. Let me know if things are clear now.

What you are affirming is what we have been saying to you for many pages now.

What we are saying is this

1. I AM ( pre Creation, pre time)
2. I AM + His Creation. ( time now exists)

There is no suspended animation , there are no 2 co- existing points.

How can there be a dilemma?

STT is English your first language?

Here is a better question.
After Jesus returns , will there be time? Given everything is eternal.
And because everything is eternal , why would Time be needed?

Remember that this Creation will be destroyed. So is time to be destroyed along with it?